Id10Ts and the €conomic$ of $ecurity

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July 13th, 2006, 09:34 AM
nihil

Id10Ts and the €cnomic$ of $ecurity

They're at it again :rolleyes:

Quote:

Ron O'Brien, senior security analyst at Sophos, explained to internetnews.com that the Mac statement was made in the context of whether the end user is committed to the effort or time to manage and maintain a safe and protected Windows environment. If not, he said, then perhaps Mac would be a more viable alternative

So, I have a $3,500 PC with Windows and I should now ditch that for $4,000 worth of Apple, that I have even less idea how to use? And this will make me "more secure"?

As we all know, second hand PC kit is pretty worthless, so that would be an almost total write-off.

Rather than spend $4,000 and waste $3,500 wouldn't it make more sense to employ a professional to create a secure Windows environment?......................it would be one hell of a lot cheaper, and most stuff will auto-update.

All you would need then is a maintenance contract?

For an existing PC home owner this has to make sense. The trouble is that most home owners don't even realise that there is a problem...............so they won't be buying an Apple anyway

:D
July 13th, 2006, 09:52 AM
MrLinus

Nihil, where's the quote from? (full article as I'm curious what "Mac statement was made in the context ..")
July 13th, 2006, 09:52 AM
HTRegz

Hey Hey,

Where do you buy your PCs and your Macs? You're being ripped off heh...

Anyways.. it all depends on your PoV.. For end users here to get a tech into your home, you're looking at $120/hour... So 10 hours of work costs you $1200... Now let's assume we're talking about an end user with no knowledge what-so-ever..

Now lets define some constants...

Windows XP: $250.00 (That's prolly low)
Windows Install Time: 1 Hour
Driver Install Time (including gathering of the drivers): 1 Hour
Lifespan of a PC for the average Home User: 2 years (this is fairly reasonable in my opinion)
Required Visits for Maintainance: 1 Visit per Month
Length of time per visit: 2 hours if no problems (defrag, updates, reboots, etc)
Additional problems per year: 2 (this is fairly reasonable)

So... I bought a PC for $3500 (your numbers)...

I decided that this is the best idea to get someone to come in and set everything up...

They come in and I'm using my computer directly connected to my modem... oh.. It's already infected... they wipe it out... but the company I bought it from didn't provide me with a copy of XP and there's no CD Key... I have to buy XP... and they were there for an hour at this point... 120 + 250 so far... They get it up and running (remember our constants) That's another 240 (install + drivers).. Im up to $610... They sell me on a router and convince me to go wireless... router + wifi card are 100... I'm up to 710... So they spend 2 hours securing and updating and configuring... I'm up to 950... I sign a contract for monthly visits.. $2880.... I'm already well over the price of the PC if I add the two additional problems that will pop up.. plus most likely another reinstall at some point... Add another year of that and my computer has broken my bank.. Costing me in the neighbourhood of $10,000 for 2 years of usage... Or..I could go out and pick up a Mac.. From a Mac Mini ($600) to an iMac ($2000) or maybe a MacBook for around ($1500)... Macs are currently not targetted and I'm totally clueless and feel Macs are totally secure.. I use my Mac for two years... prolly have 0 problems (the fact is that most Mac users never experience a problem... even if the risk exists.. it just doesn't happen)... I have the PC which my kids play on whatever happens to it happens to it and I have my Mac... total cost... under 5K... To the end user this is the better deal...

This is why we have so many problems... Techs over charge for in home visits and for many end-users unhooking their computer to bring it into the shop and then hooking it back up is just as complicated as doing the work themselves...

/me points back to original idea posted long ago of licensing computers much like we do guns and cars...

Peace,
HT
July 13th, 2006, 09:55 AM
nihil

Sorry MsM it is from EITPlanet's security news on our front page:

http://www.enterpriseitplanet.com/se...le.php/3619416

"Trojans on the March"
July 13th, 2006, 10:55 AM
nihil

Hi There HT~ ,

I think that we have had this discussion before?

Quote:

Where do you buy your PCs and your Macs? You're being ripped off heh...

That is SO TRUE!.............. I think I suggested that to compare, you have to use an exchange rate of $1 = £1? So a $3500 machine is around £2000, which is a good upper end device but only equivalent to $2000 to you guys.

On the other hand, our onsite charges are way lower................ I guess $60~70 per hour. Please remember that we are 62 million sweaty bodies stuffed into an area a half the size of the State of Oregon?.............. the tech does not have to travel that far ;)

I do not consider OS costs or the like, as you paid that when you bought the machine. Also, if you pay for it up front, your machine can be "hardened" in the shop, before you even get it.

Quote:

Lifespan of a PC for the average Home User: 2 years (this is fairly reasonable in my opinion)

That would NOT be considered reasonable over here............at least 5 years domestic and 3 years commercial would be typical. As an instance I would say that over 50% of domestic machines are still running 98/ME and a lot of businesses/institutions are still on Win2000.

Quote:

Required Visits for Maintainance: 1 Visit per Month

That I cannot accept. Windows will update automatically, all your anti-malware stuff does, and things like defrag can be scheduled as tasks. Once every six months would be closer for a domestic machine IMO?

I don't get many recalls to stuff I build and commission...........a few upgrades, a bit of telephone support and advice...........and a few hardware failures (incidentally, those are starting to get annoyingly more frequent).

I get lots of stuff bought at the equivalent of Walmart though :D

I would look at a process model along these lines:

1. Buy PC at Walmart
2. Take PC to maintenance shop and get security set up instore.
3. Guy delivers and sets up (hey, if it takes more than 30 minutes, you really should be throwing trash for a living?)
4. Applications update themselves.
5. Annual check - up.

Something like that?............OK with SOHO you might want a router and a hardware firewall...... wireless? no thanks............ not needed.
July 13th, 2006, 01:24 PM
brokencrow

Quote:

For end users here to get a tech into your home, you're looking at $120/hour...

Here in Shawnee country, the high-end outfits (the ones with the fancy vans) charge $120/hour, but I'm often going up against folks who go as low as $35/hour (onsite!). I'm seeing some interesting wrinkles in the local market now. One outfit now offers a remote maintenance contract and never show up onsite, all for a few hundred bucks a year. Who knows what they're really doing on users' PC's? Or how securely they're connecting (probably remote desktop).

Quote:

...I would say that over 50% of domestic machines are still running 98/ME and a lot of businesses/institutions are still on Win2000.

Not in the States. Mostly I see XP anymore. Dell has been an absolute monster in the computer market here. "Dell" is the first thing from someone's mouth when they talk about a new PC. And they push some c-h-e-a-p units on consumers (under $400 now). And they must be pushing some hellacious packages on businesses and institutions judging from the rollout work I see.

Most businesses I service are going thru PC's every 2-3 years, sometimes less. The "overhead" (AV apps, firewalls, and ass't other security) is so great, they have to have newer stuff. Consumers are mindless when it comes to software. Hell, I've heard of people who go out and buy new PC's rather than clean up what they have.

The Sophos guy makes a valid point. For us, switching to a Mac might be disconcerting, but if you don't know computers...well?
July 13th, 2006, 06:19 PM
realchesherkat

Quote:

Originally posted here by brokencrow
The Sophos guy makes a valid point. For us, switching to a Mac might be disconcerting, but if you don't know computers...well?

Yeah, but you have to keep in mind that this is a tactic that will work only as long as most people don't use it. If enough people switch to Macs, Macs will start getting exploited. Personally, I won't be surprised if we see a major attack against Macs sometime in the next couple years. Really, how long is it going to be before someone realizes that there are all these computers just sitting out there waiting to be compromised? And then all these geniuses who think they're secure because they're running Macs will be out there on the Net distributing trojans and such just the same as they are now.
July 13th, 2006, 07:07 PM
HTRegz

Quote:

Originally posted here by realchesherkat
Yeah, but you have to keep in mind that this is a tactic that will work only as long as most people don't use it. If enough people switch to Macs, Macs will start getting exploited. Personally, I won't be surprised if we see a major attack against Macs sometime in the next couple years. Really, how long is it going to be before someone realizes that there are all these computers just sitting out there waiting to be compromised? And then all these geniuses who think they're secure because they're running Macs will be out there on the Net distributing trojans and such just the same as they are now.

This has been discussed many times... While accurate.. and while here we frown on security through obscurity... It is valid practice... if It wasn't then why would people hide the safes in their homes... There are also many operating aspects of Microsoft operating systems.. .The Windows NT based series in particular (XP, 2k, 2K3) that make it particularly susceptible to malicious software... aspects that don't exist in the unix and mac world..

Brokencrow:

Quote:

The Sophos guy makes a valid point. For us, switching to a Mac might be disconcerting, but if you don't know computers...well?

Why is it disconcerting for us to switch to a Mac??? My Mac has recently become my primary computer... many of our engineers use Macs... my director uses a Mac.. another member of my team uses a Mac.. technicians I know at another company use Mac... My Mac gives me the power of unix... but the ease of use of Windows.. It's purdy and it's functional... It is not disconcerting to me in the least.. I fully support the move to a Mac..

Peace,
HT
July 13th, 2006, 11:08 PM
nihil

Quote:

I fully support the move to a Mac..

Which suggests that you have missed the point? Here we have a supposed security product vendor suggesting that people abandon their previous investment and lash out on an Apple computer because they will be more secure.

I do NOT consider that to be sound professional advice. Please note and remember that this advice was to people who basically know nothing about computers................home users? What we might be happy with, is irrelevant in this context.

What you are suggesting is little short of defeatist?................dump PCs and buy Apples to be protected...................... if you are a security professional you have to grasp the nettle and say that the answer is education, or at least hire someone who has it.

Once you have secured a Windows box, there really isn't that much to do other than to keep stuff up to date, and most stuff does that of its own accord these days. Problem is, these things are being sold in a basically unprotected/secured state.

Seriously, to suggest that buying different hardware and operating systems is a security "solution" is ludicrous...................you are just building a problem for the future.

Hey, you have a "Mac"............. so you don't need security sites huh?.............. so all there is left is general support and chit chat?........................... you know that is not true........... but your average home user might just believe it? :eek:
July 14th, 2006, 11:52 AM
brokencrow

Surprise, surprise, always figured you for a dyed-in-the-wool MS man, HT.

My disconcernation at switching to a Mac would be finding the equivalent apps to what I already use in Windows and the time in acclimating myself to them. And then supporting Windows' users as I do, I need time on Windows machines to keep up skillsets.

Perhaps most importantly, it would really cut into my living if I found myself surrounded by people who used computers as unaffected by viruses and spyware as Apples. Maybe Wozniak could port ActiveX to Mac? ;)
July 14th, 2006, 12:36 PM
steve.milner

You don't think that Apple are slipping him a bung by any chance?

Do you?

Steve
July 14th, 2006, 03:58 PM
tin.roof.rabbit

The closest thing to a Mac I will own is my iPod. Not because I don’t like Macs, I think OSX is an awesome os, but because I don't like the appliance approach to the PC market. I also don't like that the monopoly they have on their hardware. I see Macs as more constrictive to their users with a big brother mentality hiding behind the smugness of obscurity.

That said, there is a place for Macs and PC (of all flavors) and people need to choose what is best for their style of computing and I would really like to see this debate after Vista has a year’s worth of face time in the market.

Ciao
July 14th, 2006, 06:32 PM
rcgreen

My Debian desktop.
July 14th, 2006, 07:00 PM
nihil

OMG! rcgreen those AO leprechauns have stolen your desktop icons, not your greenies!

Where is the Outlook Express icon? how can you have a meaningful and memorable internet experience without OE and its famous VTP technology (Virus Transfer Protocol)?

And you do seem to have a rather sick apple in there? perhaps you should turn up the central heating?

:p :D
July 14th, 2006, 07:04 PM
rcgreen

the way I see it, when the trojans arrive on my computer, they'll
see that desktop and get confused???
:D
July 15th, 2006, 12:35 AM
wheaty_bytes

Talking of *nix security, have you guys heard back from the guys at gluck about the hacked debian server (see http://www.linuxsecurity.com/content/view/123560/65/). I think it goes to show that no matter how secure an OS is claimed to be, the security is in the user, not the OS. Users need to understand the underlying OS to make it truly secure (although I can imagine the guys who run that particular server are very good at their jobs).

PS - Don't get me wrong - I'm a keen kubuntu linux fan.
July 15th, 2006, 06:38 AM
nihil

wheaty_bytes I do see your point, which leads to another argument against what these "supposed gurus" at Sophos are saying.

OK if you have a home computer which you have already spent a lot of money on and you really want to go for "security through obscurity"..............go and buy Linspire and a shed load of applications. It would be one hell of a lot cheaper that buying an Apple and the same applications.

;)
July 15th, 2006, 06:50 AM
wheaty_bytes

Why buy one? If you go to distrowatch, there are hundreds of distros that are begging you to use them for free.
Going back to what I was saying before, though, I have found that it has been easier to learn about the underlying nature of linux. This is because in windows, you don't need to be exposed to that for day to day working on the computer. Point and click - that's all there is to it most of the time. I think the stats say that 95% of people have never installed an OS, be it windows or whatever. You really don't need to know much to use windows for most tasks. In linux, there is rarely a day when I don't learn something new about the system through checking something on a man page or trying to tweak or fix something. The community is also more into knowing how it works as well. The majority of windows users just want it to work, whereas I think the majority of linux users are technical.
July 15th, 2006, 07:17 AM
nihil

The reason for this discussion is that two senior personnel at Sophos (a supposed IT security company) have recommended that home users (point and click types) should replace their PCs with Apples.

Linux distros are irrelevant.................. we are talking point and click only here. Apples are (overexpensive) point and click boxes.

Lindows is also point and click (it isn't the only one) and looks very much like Windows to the average home user. I would certainly contend that there would be no more culture shock between going to that and going to OS X.

The reason I say buy, is that it comes with CDs, manuals, and applications; just like a Windows PC you buy off the shelf.

The last "bundle" I bought cost $99 and contained everything the average home owner would need. It was directly comparable to a Windows PC bundle, if not better.

So, my argument is that it is vastly more cost effective to get a professional to harden your Windows box than to buy an Apple and all the applications.

If you really want to go for security through obscurity, then Linspire (or similar) is a far less costly solution that does not require purchasing a whole new set of hardware .

;)
July 15th, 2006, 07:49 PM
HTRegz

Hey Hey,

recgreen: Your desktop looks like OS9 though, not OS X... big difference..

nihil: even recommending Lindows isn't the answer... If anything how about ReactOS :) ... at least with Mac you still get the big names.. Adobe, Microsoft, etc...

My thoughts are begining to lead towards the majority of the members of this site being Anti Mac without ever having used them.... I can tell you from being at RECON (one of the industry leading conferences) which was populated by people from Yahoo, iDefense, TippingPoint, BreakingPoint, Cloudmark and Determina... Members of the metasploit project... hardware hackers... employees from Ernst and Young... and many others... and Macs were the primary computers that these people had with them.. When everyone was sitting at the talks.. over 50% of the people had Macs... Yet here's a forum.. supposedly "in the industry" all speaking out against it...

/me wonders...

Peace,
HT
July 15th, 2006, 08:16 PM
nihil

Hey HT~ please don't get me wrong mate, I am not knocking Apple machines ..............hell I even used to have a couple (until my wife stole one). I even have one (the survivor) that dual boots! Windows 95 and something like OS 6/7? It has a 75Mhz Apple processor (Motorola or whatever) and a 120MHz Pentium.

I bought it because it was so unusual (second user of course)............. I must try to dig it out of the loft and take it apart.

My complaint is that these guys are suggesting a "solution" that is terribly expensive, and not good security in any case? There are cheaper alternatives as I have suggested.

The reason that I mention Lindows is that it is a kind of "dumbed down" Linux distro that ordinary home owners could handle. Also, you could very cheaply install it onto your existing hardware. There are others, I just haven't tried them because I only got Lindows (Linspire) as an experiment to see if ordinary users could handle it. Believe it or not, they actually can! :D

As I said, we are not speaking out against Apple computers (apart from the price!!!), but against those who suggest that this is an intelligent move fror someone who has already invested in a PC.

:)
July 16th, 2006, 07:36 AM
HTRegz

Quote:

Originally posted here by nihil
Hey HT~ please don't get me wrong mate, I am not knocking Apple machines ..............hell I even used to have a couple (until my wife stole one). I even have one (the survivor) that dual boots! Windows 95 and something like OS 6/7? It has a 75Mhz Apple processor (Motorola or whatever) and a 120MHz Pentium.

I bought it because it was so unusual (second user of course)............. I must try to dig it out of the loft and take it apart.

My complaint is that these guys are suggesting a "solution" that is terribly expensive, and not good security in any case? There are cheaper alternatives as I have suggested.

The reason that I mention Lindows is that it is a kind of "dumbed down" Linux distro that ordinary home owners could handle. Also, you could very cheaply install it onto your existing hardware. There are others, I just haven't tried them because I only got Lindows (Linspire) as an experiment to see if ordinary users could handle it. Believe it or not, they actually can! :D

As I said, we are not speaking out against Apple computers (apart from the price!!!), but against those who suggest that this is an intelligent move fror someone who has already invested in a PC.

:)

As I have stated time and time again... Apple computers are no more expensive... For the end user that buys a canned PC off the shelf... There's no difference between a high end PC and a Mac... You can get a great iMac for under $2000 or a MacBook as well... given the speaks.. it's better than most of the PC equivalents..

As for security... it is good security..

You have to remember what security is... I think part of the problem is that too many of the users of this site provide technical support... and they start to get idiocy confused with security... If I'm stupid enough to install malicious software or click an insecure link that doesn't make my PC less secure... that makes me an idiot... If I run my computer as Administrator or Root.. it doesn't make a difference what operating system I'm using... malicious software will have adverse affects.. these things aren't security issues as much as they are stupidity issues..

When it comes to security... OS X has less open ports than both my Linux install and my Windows install.. it has fewer existing vulnerabilities... that makes it more secure...

Drive-By Downloads only affect users with IE for the most part.. sure Firefox has it's vulns but that's a different story most of them end up being browser crashes... so in the end... for the end user... regardless of what anyone on this site wants to say about security through obscurity or user base or anything else... for the end user... The Mac is much more secure and they will have less problems....

In a way it has nothing to do with people targetting it... The stuff is out there... any idiot can go download it.... the idiots are usually found in the masses and the masses buy PCs running Windows...

All I have to say is people that think there's a huge price difference.. or that the security is OS X is as bad as XP.. or that users of Macs are at just as much risk as user of PCs... you're wrong... dead wrong... and you really have no experience with Macs then..
July 16th, 2006, 10:09 AM
nihil

Hmmm,

Quote:

As I have stated time and time again... Apple computers are no more expensive...

Well, time and time again you have been wrong.................only about 6% of humanity lives in North America, and Apple are based in Cupertino............which is where? Trust me, they are significantly more expensive in Europe.

The relative cost of IT is very variable throughout the World, much the same as gasoline?

Quote:

You have to remember what security is... I think part of the problem is that too many of the users of this site provide technical support... and they start to get idiocy confused with security...

Or there are those who think that stuff they learned at college and out of books represent reality? All these marvellous standards and certifications? Ack! phtt!.............. please explain what happened that got 26.5 million veterans' records into a private home? was that stupidity?.......... it certainly had an enormous impact on security! :D

The two are inexorably linked, and if people cannot understand that, they might as well go home and take up crochet?

You can have all the policies, all the processes, all the procedures, and all the certifications in the World.............. then some bugger takes a laptop home (it might even have been an Apple :p )......

I think that you know the rest?

Incidentally, my argument has remained consistently against buying an Apple to replace a perfectly good PC/Windows system. There are far cheaper solutions.

:)
July 17th, 2006, 02:27 AM
rcgreen

Quote:

buying an Apple to replace a perfectly good PC/Windows system.

I could make a smart ass comment here, but...
:cool:
July 17th, 2006, 03:36 AM
HTRegz

Quote:

Originally posted here by nihil
Hmmm,

Well, time and time again you have been wrong.................only about 6% of humanity lives in North America, and Apple are based in Cupertino............which is where? Trust me, they are significantly more expensive in Europe.

The relative cost of IT is very variable throughout the World, much the same as gasoline?

Or there are those who think that stuff they learned at college and out of books represent reality? All these marvellous standards and certifications? Ack! phtt!.............. please explain what happened that got 26.5 million veterans' records into a private home? was that stupidity?.......... it certainly had an enormous impact on security! :D

The two are inexorably linked, and if people cannot understand that, they might as well go home and take up crochet?

You can have all the policies, all the processes, all the procedures, and all the certifications in the World.............. then some bugger takes a laptop home (it might even have been an Apple :p )......

I think that you know the rest?

Incidentally, my argument has remained consistently against buying an Apple to replace a perfectly good PC/Windows system. There are far cheaper solutions.

:)

I love that you think my knowledge comes from college and book learning... It amazes me that you think just because people are younger than you they know less than you.. Lets see 3 years of college support desk, 6 months as Network Admin, 6 Months in IT Security... 3 years of Computer Networking in College.. 4 years of Cisco beyond that and 3 years of private sales and support and 2 years doing web design and custom programming.. oh yeah... and I'm only 24...

The relative cost does not vary that much... I can tell.. I can access Dell's UK site and Apple's UK site... so I did.. and I priced out a system from each site... the difference was 250 pounds... Ok... that may be a substantial amount so let's look at the differences..

Dell Advantages: slightly faster processor, cheaper
Dell Disadvantages: It's Dell and it's only XP Media Center

Apple Advantages: Includes a Wireless NIC, includes Bluetooth, includes a remote and includes a webcam.. Oh yeah and a real fully funtional OS
Apple Disadvantages: slightly slower, slightly more expensive..

So I went to ZyXel (a UK site) and priced out a WiFi NIC... 30 pounds (odd... same price as I pay here for a wifi card when you convert it)
We're looking at 20 pounds for the bluetooth adapter.. A phillips webcam... similar to what you get with the Sight... 50 pounds... Lastly the remote.. I looked at ebay and also a vendor.. both came in at about 25 pounds... That's 125 pounds worth of addons... Knocking the difference down to 125 Pounds... That doesn't seem to me to be some huge ghastly difference that you've been talking about..

Also any Mac user will tell you that they are much more comfortable on the included Mac mouse and keyboard than they are the 9 dollar PoS that Dell includes..

Bottom line.. .much like North America... the prices aren't that different...

so nihil... Either update your out of date price list.... or do some research... the prices don't vary by much...
July 17th, 2006, 10:07 AM
nihil

Hmmm,

Why do you persist in misinterpreting MY original post?

This is NOT a discussion as to whether a PC is better than an Apple, or vice versa.

This is about simple home economics!

1. I have a PC that I spent $3500 on.
2. I Ditch that for an Apple that costs $4000
3. Total spend is now $7500
4. Maybe I can get $500 for the PC?
5. Total spend is now $7000

I can get my PC hardened for $500 or I can do that and get a Linux OS and applications for no more than $600.

That gives me a TCO of $4100 as against $7000

How many refrigerators, washing machines, TVs etc. could I buy for the $2,900 difference?

Try explaining you decision to your WIFE!

:cool:
July 17th, 2006, 04:40 PM
tin.roof.rabbit

From Dell.com

With Pro

Inspiron E1405 Intel® Core™ processor Duo T2500 (2MB Cache/2.00GHz/667MHz FSB)
Genuine Windows® XP Professional
LCD Panel 14.1 inch WXGA+ UltraSharp™ TFT Display with TrueLife™
Memory 2GB DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHZ, 2 DIMM
Video Card Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 950
Hard Drive 80GB Sata Hard Drive
FREE! 8X CD/DVD Burner (DVD+/-RW) with double-layer DVD+R write capability
Intel® PRO 3945 and Dell 355 Bluetooth Internal Wireless Cards
Anti-Virus/Security Suite (Pre-installed) McAfee Security Center with VirusScan, Firewall,
Primary Battery 53 WHr 6-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery
Hardware Warranty 2Yr Ltd Warranty, 2Yr At-Home Service, and 2Yr HW Warranty Support
TOTAL:$1,348.75

With Media Center

Inspiron E1405 Intel® Core™ processor Duo T2500 (2MB Cache/2.00GHz/667MHz FSB)
Genuine Windows® XP Media Center Edition 2005
LCD Panel 14.1 inch WXGA+ UltraSharp™ TFT Display with TrueLife™
Memory 2GB DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHZ, 2 DIMM
Video Card Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 950
Hard Drive 80GB Sata Hard Drive
CD/DVD Burner (DVD+/-RW) with double-layer DVD+R write capability
Intel® PRO 3945 and Dell 355 Bluetooth Internal Wireless Cards
Anti-Virus/Security Suite (Pre-installed) McAfee Security Center with VirusScan, Firewall, Spyware Removal, 24-months
Primary Battery 53 WHr 6-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery
Hardware Warranty 2Yr Ltd Warranty, 2Yr At-Home Service, and 2Yr HW Warranty Support
TOTAL:$1,270.75

From Apple.com
MacBook 2.0GHz Intel Core Duo - White
Part Number: Z0D5
SuperDrive (DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Keyboard/Mac OS - U.S. English
2.0GHz Intel Core Duo
80GB Serial ATA drive
2GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x1GB
Accessory Kit
$1,849.00

Now before the flame war starts, I did my best to match the HARDWARE specs as close as possible between the two. I spent the most amount of time clearing the Dell website trash out of their order description. And I did this because I dont trust anyones price sheet that doesn't have hardware specs attached to it.

The mac is a 13in display while the dell is a 14.1in. Both are great machines, but I know that if I was buying a new low-mid range laptop I would go with the one that was almost 500 cheaper. Now as you get higher end, the price curve drops in Mac's favor.

Ciao
July 17th, 2006, 04:43 PM
brokencrow

You guys need to lighten up on HT. He's been workin' since he was 8 (do the math!).
July 17th, 2006, 05:34 PM
HTRegz

Quote:

Originally posted here by tin.roof.rabbit
From Dell.com

With Pro

Inspiron E1405 Intel® Core™ processor Duo T2500 (2MB Cache/2.00GHz/667MHz FSB)
Genuine Windows® XP Professional
LCD Panel 14.1 inch WXGA+ UltraSharp™ TFT Display with TrueLife™
Memory 2GB DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHZ, 2 DIMM
Video Card Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 950
Hard Drive 80GB Sata Hard Drive
FREE! 8X CD/DVD Burner (DVD+/-RW) with double-layer DVD+R write capability
Intel® PRO 3945 and Dell 355 Bluetooth Internal Wireless Cards
Anti-Virus/Security Suite (Pre-installed) McAfee Security Center with VirusScan, Firewall,
Primary Battery 53 WHr 6-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery
Hardware Warranty 2Yr Ltd Warranty, 2Yr At-Home Service, and 2Yr HW Warranty Support
TOTAL:$1,348.75

With Media Center

Inspiron E1405 Intel® Core™ processor Duo T2500 (2MB Cache/2.00GHz/667MHz FSB)
Genuine Windows® XP Media Center Edition 2005
LCD Panel 14.1 inch WXGA+ UltraSharp™ TFT Display with TrueLife™
Memory 2GB DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHZ, 2 DIMM
Video Card Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 950
Hard Drive 80GB Sata Hard Drive
CD/DVD Burner (DVD+/-RW) with double-layer DVD+R write capability
Intel® PRO 3945 and Dell 355 Bluetooth Internal Wireless Cards
Anti-Virus/Security Suite (Pre-installed) McAfee Security Center with VirusScan, Firewall, Spyware Removal, 24-months
Primary Battery 53 WHr 6-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery
Hardware Warranty 2Yr Ltd Warranty, 2Yr At-Home Service, and 2Yr HW Warranty Support
TOTAL:$1,270.75

From Apple.com
MacBook 2.0GHz Intel Core Duo - White
Part Number: Z0D5
SuperDrive (DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Keyboard/Mac OS - U.S. English
2.0GHz Intel Core Duo
80GB Serial ATA drive
2GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x1GB
Accessory Kit
$1,849.00

Now before the flame war starts, I did my best to match the HARDWARE specs as close as possible between the two. I spent the most amount of time clearing the Dell website trash out of their order description. And I did this because I dont trust anyones price sheet that doesn't have hardware specs attached to it.

The mac is a 13in display while the dell is a 14.1in. Both are great machines, but I know that if I was buying a new low-mid range laptop I would go with the one that was almost 500 cheaper. Now as you get higher end, the price curve drops in Mac's favor.

Ciao

That's great... I never said Laptops... but I can do the same with laptops... I have done it before and priced out the difference for the last discussion on this... I'll get you some matching laptop specs where the dell is more expensive.. or where many different PCs are more expensive..

brokencrow: nothing was ever said that they weren't done concurrently...

nihil: I still don't agree with your numbers... not in the least.
July 17th, 2006, 06:15 PM
spamdies

Moving to a mac for security reasons or overall cost effectiveness is like moving to romania to avoid a speed trap or to pay lower taxes.
The lure of a mac is really their with applecare that every mac user bosts about... well their supposed to anyway, only the zelots boost about it. I had to deal with them on a few occasions, I would rather put a bullet in my head then have to call apple care again.
They claim they have more secure more stable stations. Well you get what you pay for.
Theirs some alienware stations out there that make the packages offered by apple look like childs play, and in the same price range.
Security through obscurity is insecurity at the peek.
July 17th, 2006, 06:35 PM
tin.roof.rabbit

From Apple.com

iMac, 20-inch, 2GHz Intel Core Duo
Part Number: Z0CY
SuperDrive 8x (DVD+R DL/DVD+RW/CD-RW)
ATI Radeon X1600/128MB VRAM
Accessory kit
250GB Serial ATA drive
Keyboard & Mighty Mouse + Mac OS X - U.S. English
1GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x512
$1,799.00

From Dell

XPS 400 Pentium® D Processor 820 with Dual Core Technology (2.80GHz, 800FSB)
Genuine Windows® XP Media Center Edition 2005 with re-installation CD
1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz- 2DIMMs
LOGITECH MX 3000 Laser Mouse/Keyboard Combo
20 inch UltraSharp™ 2007FPW Widescreen Digital Flat Panel
128MB PCI Express™ x16 (DVI/VGA/TV-out) ATI Radeon X300 SE HyperMemory
250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/ 8MB cache
Dual Drives: 16x DVD-ROM Drive + 16x DVD+/-RW w/dbl layer write capability
Sound Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Dell A525 30 Watt 2.1 Stereo Speakers with Subwoofer
Anti-Virus/Security Suite (Pre-installed) McAfee SecurityCenter with VirusScan, Firewall, Spyware Removal, 15-months
Hardware Warranty 1Yr Ltd Warranty, 1Yr At-Home Service, and 1Yr HW Warranty Support
TOTAL:$1,240.00

This isn't a fair pricing since I couldn't level the chip sets off. Apple doesn't offer a 2.8 on the I-Mac and Dell doesn't go below the 2.8 on this model.
I also added the remote for Media Center and kicked in the Logitech MX 3000 Lasermouse and keyboard combo (not bad at 60bucks).

If I was shoping for a PC for my parents these are the specs I would put out there.

I dont want to seem like I am hammering on HT, and if he posts specs that counter what I would consider a basic US family would need. I will happily consent that he is correct. On a side note, the Mac mini is the better deal compaired to the entry level dells because of the OS alone. For what ever reason Dell does not offer Media center or Pro on their entry level desktops. For that reason I did not spec out the entry level desktops.
July 17th, 2006, 10:24 PM
nihil

This is not the issue!

Go out and dump your PC, buy some overpriced nonsense to replace it, and then you will have security through obscurity........................ whoopeeeee!

I cannot believe that I can see this sort of stuff supported on a security website.............. particularly by the finest security consultant in the Western Hemisphere................ at the ripe old age of 24?

Ack! phtt! :rolleyes:
July 17th, 2006, 11:16 PM
HTRegz

Quote:

Originally posted here by nihil
This is not the issue!

Go out and dump your PC, buy some overpriced nonsense to replace it, and then you will have security through obscurity........................ whoopeeeee!

I cannot believe that I can see this sort of stuff supported on a security website.............. particularly by the finest security consultant in the Western Hemisphere................ at the ripe old age of 24?

Ack! phtt! :rolleyes:

It's not overpriced nonsense.. problem 1 I have with what you're saying..

Secondly it's not only security through obscurity.. Macs are more secure... plain and simple... For the end user... a Mac is more secure in it's default configuration... They are designed and configured this way meaning it's more than just security through obscurity... Look at the MS Exploits this year..they are do to the way MS implements certain things... Macs don't implement stuff the same way... It's the difference between secure coding and proper code auditing and not... I'm sorry if this is above your head.... things have progressed a little since the 70s... Maybe that's why it's difficult for you to grasp... you've been out of touch for too long.
July 18th, 2006, 12:01 AM
nihil

OK, I will follow your logic to its conclusion.

Apple computers are more secure...........and please do not call them "Macs" unless you are taking a substantial kickback from Steve (tosspot) Jobs :eek:

MacIntosh is the operating system, as in OS X?........you need an Apple computer to run it on?......remember that we are talking average home user here?

So I scrap my PC, and get one of these marvellous devices, and the whole World is suddenly sorted out?

I don't think so :rolleyes:
July 18th, 2006, 12:14 AM
dalek

Okay I've been trying to follow the logic behind this conversation, and aside from the fact that each system has a different set of pricing...just what is the differences....according to this, Mac vs Win they both score evenly...?

So bottom line would still be down to the individual buying the PC and what their level of skill is? and what they are most comfortable with? ;)
July 18th, 2006, 03:40 AM
HTRegz

Quote:

Originally posted here by nihil
OK, I will follow your logic to its conclusion.

Apple computers are more secure...........and please do not call them "Macs" unless you are taking a substantial kickback from Steve (tosspot) Jobs :eek:

MacIntosh is the operating system, as in OS X?........you need an Apple computer to run it on?......remember that we are talking average home user here?

So I scrap my PC, and get one of these marvellous devices, and the whole World is suddenly sorted out?

I don't think so :rolleyes:

Apple is a company... they haven't made an "apple computer" in many years (again possibly stuck in the past?)... They make Macs... The MacBook, The iMac, The eMac... No one in IT is going to talk babout that... Macintosh is not an operating system... That would be like saying Disk is an operating system. Mac OS X is just that the Mac Operating System... Just as it was Mac OS 9, Mac OS8... It's the OS that drives the MacIntosh..btw the name originally comes from the MacIntosh computer.. again not an operating system... but a computer...

The world isn't suddenly sorted out... but the world is much better... How do worms spread in the Windows world? RPC-based Exploits, SMB Based Exploits, Default File Shares w/ Weak Passwords... How do the few worm spread in the *nix world... SSH.... How would they do this on OS X... none of the Windows based networking exploits exist... SSH is turned off by default.. The advantage of buying a machine running OS X... plain and simple.. You get a pre-hardened box..

While I don't agree with the link dalek posted... I'll get into that in a second.. If we were to look at just the "security scores" it uses... we'd see: 48 for OS X and 31 for XP...

Now as for that link..

Dalek... it's great that you posted it... but there are problems with it... many problems.. but let's address your second statement first..

Quote:

So bottom line would still be down to the individual buying the PC and what their level of skill is? and what they are most comfortable with?

We're talking about users that buy their home PC and that's it... no comfort level for security of any sort.. .maybe a point and click comfort level but that's it.. they aren't going to do anything to it.. and given that scenerio.. an OS that ships pre-hardened vs what's considered the most insecure shipping OS... you're never going to convince me that the insecure OS ix better for the end user.... never.

Now for the problems with that site.

I'll let the first too pass... there are minor issues with the scores but only minor.. first problem is with

Quote:

Legacy Application Support 3 9

Several Additional Pieces of software have come out such as DOSBox to allow user to use truly legacy applications because XP doesn't have native support... My old roommate has several things that won't run in XP they are 98 only... even with legacy support enabled... Yet on OS X you have all of OS 9 installed at the same time.. the classic environment starts and you can do anything that you normally did in classic... so these scores are obviously off

Quote:

Video Playback 4 9
DVD Playback 9 3
Video Editing 1 7 (8)

Video Playback??? Come on... OS X Natively has Quicktime, XP natively has Media Player... both are available for download by the opposite OS.... both can have DivX, XVid, RM, etc... those are equial.. DVD Playback.. XP Doesn't natively support DVD playback without additonal software/hardware so I"m not sure what that's there.. and Video Editting... I'm not sure how this one works... Macs are known for video editing... natively on my Mac I've got plenty of cool software.. on my PC I've got Windows Movie Maker... perhaps they reversed the scores..

Quote:

Photo Management 4 6

iPhoto vs... nothing by default.. .everyone get's Adobe's software on PC.. so yeah I'd say Mac wins again there..

I question all their IM and Browsing stuff... but we'll just skip that..

Quote:

Browsing Files & Folders 5 9

There's no difference in this either way.. in fact... many Mac users would say they have it easier because of spotlight

Quote:

Managing Deleted Files 7 8

Both systems send files to Trash... and both file sytems can have files recovered so I'm not sure about this either..

Quote:

Appearance & Themes, Basic 4 9
Appearance & Themes, Advanced 5 9

Everywher you look Mac Haters even score Macs higher on this.. so again.. questionable scoring..

Quote:

Help & Support 7 8

Not only do you have a browseable GUI help like Windows.. you also have man pages

Quote:

Updating the Operating System 6 8

My Mac pops up and says these updates are available.. just like Windows... and it doesn't have to verify that I'm genuine or require a specific browser.. No browser required actually

Quote:

Power Management 7 8

Another one that is equal

Quote:

Sending and Receiving Faxes 5 7

Am I missing something with this one??? I have free fax software on my Mac... but not on my PC

Quote:

Backing Up and Restoring Files 4 9
Synchronizing Files and Data 4 7 (9) / 1 (7)

Synchronize with what.. and backup to what??? I definately disagree with this

Quote:

Disk and Temporary Files Cleanup 4 8
Defragmenting Disks 5 7
Checking and Repairing Disks 8 9
Restoring and Recovering System Files 6 9

Macs have this awesome function after you install quite a few of the apps where they perform automatic hard disk optimization... besides that... any user will tell you that the unix fs management utilities (which are available on Mac) blow away the Windows ones..

OS X scored 5% higher with their biased scoring system... and plenty of it could and should be corrected... the site doesn't provide an accurate breakdown of anything...
July 18th, 2006, 08:38 AM
nihil

Hmmmm,

So, 99.9999999% of humanity is wrong, and HTRegz is right?

Better trash your PCs folks, and go and buy yourself an Apple computer?............Hey, Hey, HT~ has one, so you know it makes sense?

I just wonder how Billygoat Gates got to be the richest man on the planet?........... he is an obvious fraud and cheat, and nothing less than a public execution and a re-distribution of his wealth to steve jobs will suffice.

I now know why I have a "certain attitude" towards these "Macolytes" :cool:

I have done, and can repair Apple computers..............I just choose not to, as a matter of principle ;)

Apple have an antedeluvian business model...............so let them get on with it?

Ack! phtt!

:D
July 18th, 2006, 09:15 AM
HTRegz

Quote:

Originally posted here by nihil
Hmmmm,

So, 99.9999999% of humanity is wrong, and HTRegz is right?

Better trash your PCs folks, and go and buy yourself an Apple computer?............Hey, Hey, HT~ has one, so you know it makes sense?

I just wonder how Billygoat Gates got to be the richest man on the planet?........... he is an obvious fraud and cheat, and nothing less than a public execution and a re-distribution of his wealth to steve jobs will suffice.

I now know why I have a "certain attitude" towards these "Macolytes" :cool:

I have done, and can repair Apple computers..............I just choose not to, as a matter of principle ;)

Apple have an antedeluvian business model...............so let them get on with it?

Ack! phtt!

:D

I think it's time you grew up and acted your age... these grade school fits of anger that you throw are getting old... I make plenty of valid points... your response... a sarcastic comment... I must say I love your number.. "99.9999999%" so that's how many people run Windows XP?? Because I highly doubt that... People in IT have long accepted that the end user is stupid... ask any support person... So yes... the odds are they are wrong... That's why you hear so many tech support horror stories about the cd-rom as a cup holder, trying to use cable internet when the cable is out and holding paper up to the screen thinking it'll scan.. these aren't jokes (well they are...) but they really happen... so yes... the end-user is wrong.. As for Bill Gates.. he is a fraud and a cheat.. but he's also a smart business man.. he sold an OS he didn't have and then bought DOS... He stole the inner workings for Win 3.1.. As for your opinion towards "Macolytes" I have to question that.. as I've said numerous times.. I use Windows and Linux much more than I use Macs... I own a Mac.. yes.. I use it as my "primary" computer every now and then.. but I'm hardly a "Macolyte".. Mac users stand behind their product because they know it's quality... It's not like Windows users who bash the product they use because they know it's ****.

Should I give you a cookie because you can repair computers? Face it.. when it comes to IT you're washed up... when it comes to maturity you're a little kid... Do everyone a favour and retire.. give up IT... we'll all be better as soon as you stop practicing.. As I said... You couldn't even respond to valid points...

I tell you why they are Macs and explain the OS and you ignore it...I know.. you just can't stand to be wrong... What's why you have so many posts.. half the time you simply reiterate in other wording what someone has already done... trying to make yourself feel smart perhaps??

I also post the question why would someone, who isn't going to touch their computer after they set it up, be better with a operating system that's insecure by default rather than hardened OS... yet something else you couldn't answer...

At least I know what I'm talking about... the PMs that I get regarding you... the instant messages and yes... even the emails... People wonder why you're here... You have a limited level of knowledge and you pretend to be all knowing... All you've ever proven on this site is that you're some old guy with too much time on his hands who plays with the occasional computer and thinks that his age mandates that he knows **** about computers... but anyone in IT will tell you that age has absoluately nothing to do with it... You know how to use google... that's another thing you've proven... but that's about it..

You know.. time and time again you've taken shots at me.. picked fights with me.. asked to have me removed from this site... so go ahead... start up on it again... You want to insult me.. well this time I'm not going to sit around and be the peaceful one as usual.. I'm taking shots back.

HT
July 18th, 2006, 09:50 AM
Aspman

Lol this site is funny sometimes.

On topic: Handbags at dawn attitude aside, no matter who tells me that the Apple/Mac (take yer pick I ain't fussy) is more secure ( and I don't deny that the mac is more secure out of the box) I ain't buying one.
Why?
I've got a perfectly servicable windows box under the desk.
It is secured to give me a level of risk I can acept.
I'll buy a cross cut shredder though.
Total additional outlay = £15

If I were looking to buy a new machine I would still not buy an Apple/Mac.
Why?
I'm not a power user, I play few games. A budget machine will suit me. An Apple/Mac is not a budget choice for me. The insecurities of the Windows PC is something I'm confident I can mitigate to my own level of comfort.
July 18th, 2006, 10:38 AM
brokencrow

...I'm startin' to think high-tech brings out the worst in people.

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