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I've read that some American researchers have claimed to have found the "end of the universe", ie proof that it exists. What do people here think? The first thing I come up with is, what's beyond that? And isn't the universe meant to be infinite?
But if you accept the Big Bang theory, ie that the universe had a start, then you have to concede that it must also have a finish. It's possible that they've reached the boundaries of what we define as the universe.
I think it might be terminology? Some people call the solid, gaseous and other stuff "TheUniverse" and the space it is in (bigger) "The Cosmos" ?
:confused:
You mean you think they've found the end of the gaseous matter etc? Since matter can only travel at the speed of light, I'd believe that was possible - by definition it can't be infinite if it started with the Big Bang.
I'm sleep deprived so my imagination is in overdrive, been reading Stephen Hawking also.
Depending on whether it is an expanding universe or a collapsing universe, the scientists would have discovered where the "end of the universe" was.
Depending on their discovery method, using the light from stars etc or by radio reflection, a lot can change during the time delay that the light or "radio" leaves it's source and reaches us.
Some of stars we see at night may no longer actually be there.
need more caffiene
Agreed .... but there are people who illogically think the universe has no end, which cannot be the case if it began. It's simply do we have the ability to discover "the end". These large areas of dark matter are interesting as well, presumably these and black holes are the theory behind the collapsing universe, or at least one being held back from runaway expansion.
I always think it's incredible how if we evolved from so much more minute quantities of matter, what potentially could evolve from something incredibly more powerful?
Hey four, I hear the Steven H readings, The Universe in a Nutshell ftw! you know he recently won the Copely medal: http://science.slashdot.org/article..../11/30/1936231
Anyways, No offense Moira but I would like to see some sources on this.
As for this, not necessarily. The universe has expanded in a double inflationatory model, and can continue to do so. In this case the end of the universe would be that everything continues to drift apart with a lower and lower temperature, until it (the temperature) evens out between matter and energy. It would still expand forever.Quote:
But if you accept the Big Bang theory, ie that the universe had a start, then you have to concede that it must also have a finish. It's possible that they've reached the boundaries of what we define as the universe.
Hmmm?
It still boils down to definitions I would suggest?
If the Universe is either expanding or contracting, my question still remains...... What is it expanding into, or contracting from?
:)
Exactly nihil. And dmorgan, by definition if something "starts" it has to "finish". Think about it - and not just in terms of the universe. Show me one single thing that starts and doesn't finish.
Personally I don't believe in the Big Bang theory, so I have no trouble with the concept of infinity and eternity. Time and space are just man's artificial standards being applied within the confines of what we can understand - because we aren't prepared to admit there are higher levels that a human brain just can't grasp.
Not to drag another one of "those" controversies into the conversation, but what do you believe in then? I might be wrong, but it almost sounds like you subscribe to an "intelligent design" theory of creation (and I'm not just talking biological design here...)
Cheers,
cgkanchi
That's right ..... as you say, not to drag it out, but I do believe in an "intelligent design" theory of creation.
Stephen Hawking had an audience with Pope John Paul II about the big bang theory. JPII told Stephen that he bought most of it but that God's finger was the "big bang" and the scientists need look no further. I believe that there's room for Science and Religion
To really deviate, maybe the universe can be expanding and contracting at the same time. Maybe the universe is only expanding because the "void" is contracting
When I used to substitute teach, I used to get primary schoolers going with "one sided" mobius strips. Some engineer/artist had designed a mobius bottle where fluids from the outside passed inside the bottle back and back out to wind up inside.
I believe you're right - they're not mutually exclusive. But for me, science and evolution don't explain why we have conscience, spirituality, a love of music and appreciation of beauty. These are not traits needed for survival, which is the basis of evolution.Quote:
Originally Posted by fourdc
I also believe we would all admit to their being an "evil" in the world, inside some people, which can't be simply attributed to upbringing, environment etc. Think of some of the truly horrible, evil things some people have done - and then try to convince yourself this dark force doesn't exist.
LOL, I never intended to go off at such a tangent :)
Moira,
Since you brought up the notion of the "force".
There is a force, it has a light side and a dark side, it holds the universe together..... Duct Tape.
:D
Yes, it's amazing how you can liken the whole thing to Star Wars .... down to Darth Vadar being Luke's father. The bible retold :p
Moira, do you have a link or someplace that I can go to read the article(s) you talked of in your initial post???
just because the universe started in one point according to the big bang theory doesnt mean it has to have an end
look at a graph... a graph has an origin of (0,0) but extends in all directions infinitly
also i think currently our brain lacks the ability to comprehend the universe for all its glory
some people understand and can think it through better then others, but still we are human... there are things we do not understand and probably can not understand at this point in time
big bang, M theory... all that is some scary stuff
imagine there being MULTIPLE infinitys... each on a different layer or or "pancake" i believe it is called in M theory... each dimension infinite in size...
i doubt we will have something remotely close to the answer in our life time... but it makes you wonder, doesn't it
and someone please correct me if im wrong on my little M theory explanation
I repeat, show me something in life that starts but doesn't end. By giving an event a start, by definition you're making it finite.
Yeah, let me dig up the article. It was about two different US research organisation, one contacted the other to ask what this "interference" could be in their results, thinking maybe something the other unit was doing could be causing it, only to be told, "no, that's the evidence you're looking for".
I can't immediately locate it - it was given to me by somebody else, but I'll be seeing them on Wednesday and will ask again. I was actually looking at a photocopied document this guy was showing me so I'm not even totally sure it was from something online, it might have been a research document.
Let me see Eddie this week - in fact I'll email him now - and ask if he can point me to the actual article.
You are assuming the big bang is the start of the universe. When that is not really the case. The big bang is the start of the universe as we now know it.
Big Bang Theory does not say anything at all about what the universe was before the big bang occured. Some people like to think that is where time started, but we don't know that...
Also, if you are going to use intelligent design, meaning there is a creator behind everything as your means of discrediting the big bang theory I don't think the logic really works. The main issue people have with the big bang is that it is a start, what existed before that right? Well the same issues can be raised about an intelligent creator. Where did they come from? When did they start?
If you use a christian view of God, he has always been and will always be in existence. Never started, never ending. Show me proof that such a thing that never started and never ends can exist and I can show you proof that something can start and never end.
some excellent viewpoints on this forum on more than technology, b ut i agree with the last everyone assumes that the 'universe' started at the big bang, it didnt as you cannot make something from nothing which is the ultimate scientific arguement as god made the universe (supposedly) from nothing.
basically energy does not disapear as far as i know from my limited lessons in physics so.....
mohaughn that's quite correct, a universe that started with the Big Bang is just one that started as we know it. Or believe what other people tell us anyway (let's face it, do we know? Do we actually know how anything works or do we put faith in our belief in others, and if so, what's wrong with putting faith in an intelligent creator?)
Accepted, the Big Bang had to have something to trigger that. Which is why I don't subscribe to that theory as the explanation for life on earth. And if it started an explosion of matter, then that matter can only be travelling at the speed of light and by definition must have an end point .... but that's only the end of the universe as we know it, not the end of the cosmos. Of course black holes and this newly discovered dark matter confuse the issue further :D
Geist_607 It's funny but the more scientists really delve into these mind boggling problems, the more the find that there are inexplicable areas that are just not adequately explained by what they know (and by know, I mean can prove by replicating their theory). And if you do away with the constraints of time and space, then a lot of our preconceived ideas collapse in a world with eternity and infinity.
To me, there are just too many logical patterns and mathematical laws to exist in a world of random chaos. Too much that "fits" an intelligent creator, too many areas of our make-up that can't have been put there by evolution because they're not necessary traits for survival.
To get back to this research I said I would dig up - I contacted the person who showed me this, and I hadn't realised it was actually so old, sorry as I know that wasn't the impression I gave (but I can find nothing to show it's been disproved or altered since). From his email:
Edit For a lighthearted look at this, watch this short video:Quote:
Hi Moira,
Source – Bill Bryson 'A short history of nearly everything' p 29 to 31
Arno Pezias and Robert Wilson were making use of a large communications antenna owned by Bell Laboratories at Holmdel New Jersey, but were troubled by persistent background noise.
They went to see Robert Dicke at Princeton University who realised the significance circa 1965.
Two articles in the Astrophysical Journal, one by each group.
Penzias and Wilson received the 1978 Nobel Prize in Physics.
'They had found the edge of the Universe' quotation is accredited to Scientific America ''Echoes from the Big Bang" Jan 2001, pp38—43.
Hope this helps.
Every blessing
Eddie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYmeSBUPswM
The Big Bang Theory has nothing to do with life on earth. It is a theory that describes how the universe came to be in the current that that it is in.Quote:
Which is why I don't subscribe to that theory as the explanation for life on earth.
Darwin's Theory of Evolution says more about life on this planet. Not sure if you are getting those confused. Just not sure what the link is between the big bang and life on this planet.
Well, to say that it has nothing to do with life on earth doesn't follow if you accept it was responsible for creating the earth. And I don't think evolution and creation are mutually exclusive, but that evolution as the reason we came to be has too many bits of the argument that don't fit.
Religion and mythology have often offered explanations for things that we humans don't understand or comprehend. I can't comprehend infinity or a pre bang universe with nothing but a bit of pressurized matter waiting to pop.
Everything is a theory here, until someone offers definite proof otherwise.
I'll keep my faith, if my faith is correct in time I'll know the answers. Maybe then I'll know where those missing socks are.
"Religion and mythology" - how sad that you lump them both in the same sentence. I find it quite incredible how many intelligent, educated, cultured, western people can diss the concept of God without at least testing the argument, and yet they're only too happy to believe in Mystic Meg's lottery predictions and read their horoscopes avidly.
Yeah, I normally refer to Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, etc, as Theologies and not religions. Unless you are speaking of organized religion, that has a whole different context.
But I find it sad when people do not have the conviction to question what they are being told. That they don't actually read their literature. Oh they will feign to and turn around and parrot what they were told at the building of worship. What good is having a free will without using it? Personally it took me 10 years of study to really get a handle for my opinion of what the bible said.
and if I was picking between Mystic Megs and Pat Robertson’s of the world, I'd go with Megs. Their name is not tied to a great pacifist and I will never have to read about one of them saying a certain person or group of people should be killed knowing they are supposed to exonerate that pacifistic personification.
Ciao
I too find it sad when people don't have the conviction or even the interest to question what they are being told - be that by a building of worship or other "religions" and lifestyles they seem to accept without question.
Too many people cannot support the arguments they trot out glibly. I have a strong faith because I question my existence and purpose in life and I find my beliefs stand that test. It irritates me when people dismiss "god" (and I'm not talking organised religion here), yet they haven't thought about it at all.
I just find this sort of thing fascinating. Questions like why do plants grow at the "golden angle", achieving optimal packing rather than rows, where even straying by one tenth of a degree will lose the effect? Why is the growth based on the golden angle usually a number from the Fibonacci series? Why have we got the exact maths to experience solar eclipses? These and other similar questions convince me we are looking at the work of an intelligent creator, who wanted us to enjoy life, not random chaos. And why has nobody managed to achieve animate life from inanimate matter?
I'd better save this for tomorrow's housegroup where the basis for this thread originated, ie Eddie and his statement about the "end of the universe" :D
Sorry, I never meant it to get this heavy :)
I mean no insult to religion. One person's religion is another's mythology. An "upstart" religion until it's established is usually referred to as a "cult."
I mean no disrespect. I am usually pretty tolerant of another's beliefs. What moves me is not another's beliefs but another's action, for good or for bad.
It all comes down to "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Accept as you wish to be accepted. Respect as you wish to be respected.
Well fourdc you really disappoint me there............. a man of your intellect, and this being a "full diclosure" security site and all.......... tell them the truth about the missing socks man!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Every washing machine contains a stainless steel lobster that eats socks.......... but never two of the same colour/pattern at the same time.
So, do as I do, and buy a half dozen identical pairs................this confuses the lobster............ but, be warned, when it dies of starvation you have to go buy a new washing machine :D
I am going to make a round trip of about 70 miles tonight......to a "mission"........ It will be the Indians (Goa) this time............ the Phillipinos did it yesterday................ I guess it will be the Poles and Czechs tomorrow?
Sorry Moira, I just couldn't resist the temptation:D
I think that you know where I stand from my signature?;)
Nihil..
I buy only gray socks from Hanes. I always have matching socks.
Moira
It's supposed to be heavy, its Cosmos.
The universe has no end, according to Stephen Hawkings, let me explain why:
The equation for gravity according to Newton depends on the mass of the object. That is why Jupiter has more moons than us etc. Because it has more mass = more gravity. Saturn has a moon called Titan which is greater in size than mercury, and the mini planet pluto, yet it revolves around Saturn.
Mass does not size, because different objects contain different density.
If there was an end of the universe that would mean there would be a central point of gravity which would be the largest mass in the universe. That means that every universal object would be eventually heading to that point.
Although on the contrary according to Hawkings, observations show that galaxies around us are actually moveing away from us, as well as the rest of the universe. This supports the Big Bang Theory and the universe is expanding.
Of course there are alot of phylisophical theories on creationism, and also evolutionism, you just need to figure it out for yourself and get your own opinions.
That's good fourdc :) I find myself getting a bit *****ly and defensive sometimes because, like using AOL, I get attacked for the label attached to it rather than the person I actually am.
Not that I mind because I can confidently state my beliefs knowing that they stand the test of argument.
And black socks are by far the worst ..... never put black socks in the wash, they disappear down the proverbial black hole and you'll never see two identical ones again.
And I hadn't seen the latest post when I hit submit. I still can't see why you think matter can travel faster than the speed of light, which means if the Big Bang was the start of the universe as we know it, it can only have reached a given point.
Why should there be a beginning for the Universe anyway ?. As i see it , the Universe is something thats always there. It has no beginning or end. It may seem odd for us because most of the things that we deal with (computers,girlfriends,mother in laws) all fall into the category of things that are created and destroyed. As for the Big Bang Theory, its just a little hypothesis made up by Scientists to satsify folks who are unable to digest the previous concept.
PacketThirst I couldn't agree more - interesting to see the way you put "mother in laws" in the category of things created and destroyed :D
I've never at any point seen the "big bang" (whatever you conceive it to be) as the beginning of all time. By definition time is finite in any case. But it could have been an event in the history of what we term "the universe" and if you concede that, you have to alllow it an end point, a finish.
I think you hit the nail on the head when you called it a "hypothesis made up by Scientists to satisfy folk who are unable to digest the previous concept". I really think that says it all. We don't understand because we can't, but we're uncomfortable accepting the concept of a force or a power that is greater than we are and that we can't control and will never understand. That's the beginning of my idea of what God is, in a nutshell.
I don't believe that "time" has a beginning because "time" is just a concept. Its again just an "idea" that we humans have come up with to live in the reality that we percieve - the reality of symbols. As Alan Watts puts it, there is no past and there is no present. The only thing thats present is "Now". Hard to digest again ;-).
I agree with you about the concept of God. God again is a "concept" or a "hypothesis" like the "big bang" created by the lazy and ignorant to provide an explantation to the things that they couldn't understand. The concept of God is a very powerful one as it explains almost everything. Why does the earth go round - God. Why does my mother in law always have to be a bitch - God !!. We must realize the fact that science still hasn't progressed to a stage so as to explain everything that goes on around us. To cite an example, folks in the past worshipped the Sun and Moon as Gods. They were overwhelmed by its power and the science that they knew couldn't explain it.Thats the way things go with
humans :-) ...
Anyways, this is a debate that could go on forever, so, seeing as it's nearly 2:30 in the AM, and I am in no such state for a Philosophical/Theoretical Physics/Religious debate, I'll leave you with this, and return later with more thoughts:
At least we know there is a good restaurant there...
enmand
Mother in laws may come under that other label "Devil", ie the opposite of God :)
I believe evil is also an inherent, hard to explain force, but it is definitely there. There are some acts that are so abhorrent you simply can't explain them as upbringing, environment etc. It exists in varying degrees and I believe people conveniently use it to counteract the "God" argument. Like "if there was a God, he would never allow this, this, and this to happen". Well, nobody ever said the world was in the power of something or someone almighty and good - this evil force can and has taken control of a lot of our world.
The greatest trick the devil ever played was to convince the world he didn't exist.
And Drakain Zeil thanks for that link! It's exactly what I've been looking for lately - very interesting.
MicroBurn,
And you could hitchhike there!
Thanks for all the fish
The only evil that exists in the world is that which arises out of one's ignorance. Sure there are some really evil people in the world, but from their perspective they are doing the right thing. The concept of evil is a very relative one. You know the saying - " One man's terrorist is an other man's freedom fighter".
If the world was fully under the control of evil, how would you explain all the good things in life like computers, girlfriends,vacations,sex etc. What exactly is good and bad anyway ?. Who defines it ?. (although i totally agree that mother in law = very bad ). If the Devil was really that intelligent, all he needed to do was to appear before the Earth saying that he's God and order us to do things as he wants. We would ofcourse fall to the trick just like Adam and his old lady.
I disagree, there's an inate evil that existed in people like Hitler, like the Yorkshire Ripper, like those boys in the James Bulger case, like Mary Bell years ago who killed a little boy when she was 12 years old ..... this sort of evil isn't debatable. I'm not saying the world is in control of evil forces, I see it more as a battle.
And don't you think that's happening?Quote:
If the Devil was really that intelligent, all he needed to do was to appear before the Earth saying that he's God and order us to do things as he wants. We would ofcourse fall to the trick just like Adam and his old lady.