Christianity

Welcome Negative, glad you're following it. It is going well with little problems.
;) I always like a useful exchange of ideas myself.

chsh -

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Then I apologize, I merely misunderstood. Most often I've seen people add clauses like an 'especially' and it turns out that the clause is really how they feel.

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Ok. Let's move on. I do in fact respect what you have to say, along with the rest of the crew.

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Ah. I see the point you were trying to make now. I'm aware that you didn't ask me to believe in what you believe in, I didn't mean for that piece of my post to appear as though I did.

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No offense then. :)

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gold eagle, that is what a debate is about. Debating religion is never a good idea, but we seem to have a very mature bunch here, who aren't taking things personally. I'm not trying to 'correct' people or anything, I really don't believe that I could do anything close to that over the 'net. All I'm doing is having an interesting discussion/debate/etc..

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It is turning out to be a good debate in fact. Your points are well taken. Post more of what you believe - it might help some who are following this (lurkers) and have not yet joined the fray.

I might add this link No offense to the religious but you may wish to comment.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/2002/20...o-religion.htm

It speaks to ppl who have left the organized religions. Chsh this might indeed help your point of view somewhat as if so many are leaving, why?

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Sorry, Uraloony, but that's a sick reasoning... You do realize that what you're basically saying is that all 'non-believers' are sex- and drugs-addicts, do you? The "right fix"? There ain't no such thing...

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I am not saying that at all. You are putting words in my mouth and making huge assumptions.
I mean some people MAY use those forms of pleasure as a fix. You say there is no fix, so how can one ever be happy?

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No I don't. Period. I got my morals from my education, from personal experience, from my own logical reasoning... No Bible involved...

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Why does your education say what it says and why do you choose to beleive it? What makes your reasoning logical?

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Is that your "prove"? Come on, man, you can do better than that...

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I will not bother posting anymore proof becuase you will choose not to beleive me anyway. It doesn't matter what I will post. Sure, I can bring you book after book written by a Christian scientist or theologian, proving without a doubt that the earth was created, not evolved. But that won't help me. You will say, "Oh, that comes from a biased view" or "Oh, they make it all up".

If you won't accept any of my proof and expect me to beleive that man just evolved, then I can't debate with you any further.

I am done posting in this thread.

Hey y'all, and so the debate rolls on :) . I want to post some links that may be helpful in describing the Christian viewpoint (especially if you're not familiar with it).

http://www.gieson.com/Library/projec...alk/index.html
http://www.christianswers.net/jesus/ www.ccci.org/intellectual/ http://www.crusade.org/resources/fourlaws.html www.ccci.org

For some reason a couple links didn't post. Here they are:
www.ccci.org/intellectual/ www.ccci.org :cool: Thanks!

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Originally posted by Uraloony
I am not saying that at all. You are putting words in my mouth and making huge assumptions.
I mean some people MAY use those forms of pleasure as a fix. You say there is no fix, so how can one ever be happy?

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I hate to do this, Ura (it doesn't matter anyways, since you 'corrected' your original statement), but I wasn't making assumptions...

Here's what you originally said:

But it is inside everyone. If a person cannot fulfill his spiritual needs through God properly, he will go to another perverted source such as sex, drugs, material possessions, or some other source to "fullfill" his needs. However, this "fix" is temporary and will not last. The person is constantly searching for the right "fix", but never finds it unless he chooses God's way.

It is inside everyone: a reference to The spiritual hunger.
What I assumed you were saying, is exactly what you were saying... If you cannot fulfill your spiritual hunger (which you say is in everyone) through God, you will go to another perverted source.

You're the one putting words in my mouth here ;)
I put the "right fix" between brackets, and I did that for a reason... I should have stressed right though...

And about morals coming from the Bible... what about people who never read the Bible? They don't have morals then? Strange... really strange...

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...proving without a doubt that the earth was created, not evolved.

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Jeez...

And besides, what makes you think I'm looking for proof of any kind? Can't you see what's going on here? I'm not the one asking for proof, I'm the one telling you that there just is NO way to proof what PhirePhreak is trying to proof... I'd love to read some of that 'the earth was created, not evolved'-material though...

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If you won't accept any of my proof and expect me to beleive that man just evolved, then I can't debate with you any further.

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Hmmmm... so you're asking me to to accept your "proof" (if I don't do that, you won't debate with me anymore), but you don't want to listen to what I have to say? I'm not looking to proof anything here, just criticizing the way you're trying to proof something unprovable...
PhirePhreak, I'm waiting for your stuff ;)

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Hmmmm... so you're asking me to to accept your "proof" (if I don't do that, you won't debate with me anymore), but you don't want to listen to what I have to say? I'm not looking to proof anything here, just criticizing the way you're trying to proof something unprovable...
PhirePhreak, I'm waiting for your stuff ;)

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Wrong. What I said AND MEANT what that if I present my proof that is not from the Bible, but rather is from archeology findings or science tests, you will label my stuff as garbage. I find that many so called "open-minded" people are not open minded at all. Heh, they won't accept any facts as true unless presented from their own "side".

Negative, the Bible is not impossible to disprove. Here are two quick reasons:

1. Archeology supports the Bible.

2. Jewish historical records support Jesus coming.

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Hmmmm... so you're asking me to to accept your "proof" (if I don't do that, you won't debate with me anymore), but you don't want to listen to what I have to say? I'm not looking to proof anything here, just criticizing the way you're trying to proof something unprovable...
PhirePhreak, I'm waiting for your stuff

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sidenote here: Again Negative, making assumptions...

You are criticizing me for supposedly trying to prove the unprovable. Well the Bible has been proven again and again in many different manners and ways.

Now, if you are interested , and will listen to my facts with an open, non-biased mind, I will go and search up some more proof. However, if you will label the things I bring as lies and scams, I will not waste my time.

Looks like tensions are starting to rise.

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Negative

I'd shoot him, no doubt about it... No regret, either... I hear your next question coming already: 'What if that person was your mother?'.... I'd shoot her, again without a doubt... Why? Because I'm damn sure that's what she'd want me to do...

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That wasn't my next question, but that doesn't matter. Glad you're getting involved in this thread.

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uraloony

Wrong. What I said AND MEANT what that if I present my proof that is not from the Bible, but rather is from archeology findings or science tests, you will label my stuff as garbage. I find that many so called "open-minded" people are not open minded at all. Heh, they won't accept any facts as true unless presented from their own "side".

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Nobody is open minded, just like nobody is truly a 'realist.' No matter what we try to think or say, we will always be biased one way or another. Usually this bias is harmless and unnoticeable but nevertheless, it's there.

And a note to some of the guys who are looking for absolute proof about God's existance. You won't find it, you aren't meant to find it. I said this before and I'll say it again: proving God's existance proves that he does not exist. We're meant to believe in faith in God of our own free will. If it's proven he exists we won't be relying on faith anymore, but on a fact.

Personally, I believe if they had had a camera crew at Jesus' tomb on Easter morning, and they had caught Jesus rising from the dead on tape, people would still find some reason not to believe. Take a look at Mark 3:1-6, Jesus heals a man in front of witnesses. Some believed. Some didn't:

"Another time he [Jesus] went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, 'Stand up in front of everyone.' Then Jesus asked them, 'Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?' but they remained silent. He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, 'stretch out your hand.' He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus."

How do you like that? Jesus does a miracle. He heals a man. Do they give him the key to the city? Do they trust him and place their faith in him? No, they plot to kill him. If seeing is believing, the people who saw Jesus should have believed.

Have you every read the Bible and noticed this? The overwhelming majority of the people Jesus appeared to after his resurrection were already believers. Check it out. There were a few exceptions but not many. Why do people choose to believe or not believe? It's beyond me. I really believe God has to do a work in our hearts before we can see the truth. A person having faith in Jesus is as much as if not bigger miracle than the parting of the Red Sea.

However, this is not to say that there are not scientific and archaeological confirmations of the Bible and the events it describes and records. But my faith does not rest on proof Truth faith holds on to God even when it seems that everything else argues against it. Truth faith is a matter of the heart first and only then a matter of the head. :)

Jesus told his disciples "I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like little child will never enter it." What does that mean? It means that salvation comes when we trust God and put our faith in him. Faith in God means trusting a a Person and not a set of doctrines or a philosophy of life. It doesn't mean blindly following what some preacher says. It does mean humbly trusting in God to save us and do for us what we cannot do for ourselves. Namely-- forgiving our sins and giving us eternal life.

Now there's a concept we might want to discuss--sin. If we don't believe in God and we don't believe that Christ died for our sins, how do we deal with the guilt we feel? Do we deny it? Does that make it go away? I don't think so. It just digs itself deeper and deeper into our soul. How do we get forgiveness if we don't believe in God?

Heres a scenario. You shoot the unarmed person to save your own life. How do you deal with the guilt you feel because you killed someone just to save yourself? Do you pay money and apologize to their family? Will that undo what you've done?

In one of the earlier posts someone was questioning why God would require the death of his Son in order to forgive our sins. Good question. Because God is just and he cannot leave sin unpunished. For God to be true to himself he cannot be unjust. He cannot fail to punish sin. God would not be acting in accordance with his own nature. So he comes to earth and lives with us and then he gives his life on a cross for us.

If scientific and archaelogical proofs won't convince us of our need for a Savior, what about our own desire for forgiveness and restoration?

I don't think anyone in the ancient
world separated religion from politics.
Every king, emperor or pharaoah was
considered the incarnation of god,
or the mediator between god and man.

Those who had power were automatically
assumed to be the bridge between the
ordinary and the infinite.
They had the power to kill, therefore
they were "the supreme being"

What is the source of the modern
belief that there is a "higher morality"
with a greater validity than government?

If the individual has access to god,
tyranny is broken.

If there is no god, then "man" is the
supreme being. But does this mean
"man" the person, or collective man",
the state?

What you "believe" always has social and
political fallout.
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