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Moira,
You might want to check into quantum mechanics & chaos physics. These guys are researching some wild stuff. The reason I mention it is simple - if you think you might have a grasp on the universe and how it came to be, read some of this stuff and you should feel about as smart as a doorknob after you're done (at least I did anyways). :eek:
In any event, check these sciences out if you get a chance. It may just open your eyes up to some revolutionary theories/ideas about our universe.
Well, that makes me think of several possibilities:Quote:
Originally Posted by Moira
1) we got the odds wrong
2) it did happen that way and yes it was unlikely but its a big universe. If it didn't happen we wouldn't be here to wonder about it. Also, its long odds on tossing 100 heads in a row but if you toss enough coins it will happen.
3) perhaps something did speed things along. Not a god(s) but just some random space travelling alien that sneezed while visiting our ball of rock, water and slime.
This isn't my argument, my scientific theory and these are far more learned people in this field than myself that you're quick to dismiss as knowing nothing. FYI experts have been arguing this for years and nobody has disproved creation. For that matter, if life was created by the big bang or whatever, then as a scientific principle it should be reproducable, that's basic for any argument. Yet nobody has ever managed to create life.
And I don't believe I am bashing anyone any more than I'm getting bashed myself, in fact quite the reverse. I'm getting overrun by people having a go at me, without anyone on "my side".
And I'm more than happy to stop specifically discussing religion vs antheism. I don't think we're doing anything useful now anyway, simply going round in circles so it's pointless. Let's move on for goodness sake.
I'm not intending to bash you personally in any way and I know the debate has been going on a long time. My point simply is that just because winning the lottery is a rare event doesn't mean that people who win it are in any special favour of a higher power, just lucky. Yes, its extremely unlikely that life would evolve at all but if it didn't, who would be there to analyse the odds of it happening? Even if you accept that life evolved on earth "too quickly" to be random chance, maybe we just got lucky. There doesn't NEED to be any explanation, the chemicals just happened to be in the right place at the right time.
As a general rule, I try not to take sides in a debate. A long time ago, in a college far far away - we had an assignment (journalism class) where we had to create a convincing argument for (xxxx), then create an equally convincing counter-argument against (xxxx). The whole exercise was intended to show how personal bias can impair your ability to debate.Quote:
without anyone on "my side".
In any event, religion & politics debates seem to hit home with everyone. I have been in very few where someone didn't get all fired up. So, here's what I propose - We settle this debate once and for all, the old-school way.
Theists vs. Non-Theists. Parking Lot. 3PM. :eek:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShagDevil
Agnostics will referee....:D:drink:
Creationism is not a scientific theory, evolution is. The entire creationism argument is based on just that one flawed argument: "it can't be chance, so there must be a creator." It's illogical, as it wrongly assumes that there are only two possibilities. It is unscientific, as natural selection is the real solution - not chance, not a creator. You can believe in a creator all you want, but don't pretend that there is any science behind your belief. If you do, expect to be ridiculed by 99% of the scientific community.Quote:
This isn't my argument, my scientific theory and these are far more learned people in this field than myself that you're quick to dismiss as knowing nothing.
Another of the "arguments" of creationists... First of all, nobody has ever disproved the existence of the flying spaghetti monster, either. Secondly, I don't think it is up to me to prove to you that god doesn't exist, just like it isn't up to you to prove to me that the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist, or for you or me to prove that other preposterous creations of the mind do not exist.Quote:
FYI experts have been arguing this for years and nobody has disproved creation.
Me: "The flying spaghetti monster exists."
You: "No, it doesn't."
Me: "Well, then prove that it doesn't exist."
You: "I can't."
Me: "Then it exists."
That is your argument?
That's the same "argument" again. You cannot prove that it exists, so it doesn't exists? A scientist will embrace that scientific gap and start researching it; you apply some ill logic and call in a supreme being. Just don't be surprised when one day there are no more gaps to be filled, and no more gaps for god to hide in...Quote:
For that matter, if life was created by the big bang or whatever, then as a scientific principle it should be reproducable, that's basic for any argument. Yet nobody has ever managed to create life.
Neg I proved that existed when I was 4 years old and I have the picture in Michigan of the wrecked kitchen to prove it.
I Believe in God. I don't have to prove it to anyone because if they don't, that's their choice. However, people without Faith and Belief astonish me. Why go on if all you believe is going to happen when you die is a little party for your still breathing friends and or relatives?
And another thing, this is sort of on topic, but without Spiritual sides, explain Ghosts.
And for people who don't think Ghosts are real, heh, drive yourself to Colorado, find the Stanley Hotel, walk around... That should do it even though paranormal things don't work on Q.
Alternatively, go to Michigan, find Port Huron which is where I was born, find my Mom, and have Her take you to the house SHE grew up in.
God that place makes me cringe thinking about it.
Once you wake up from something touching you that isn't there and your blanket starts slowly being pulled off you until it's down to your feet while you're asleep and you hear footsteps outside the door even though you're alone in the house, and then you hear a baby crying, THEN say they don't exist.
Hell if you really want to be sure make sure it's late at night when no other sounds are happening from outside, grab a tape recorder, and walk around.
Had to bring that up because I've yet to see someone who doesn't believe manage to explain why things like that happen without some type of belief in an afterlife.
By the way I'm NOT talking about the TV show Most Haunted where there is a psychic, I'm talking about a tape recorder where you can listen to it afterwards and learn about EVPs and why I used to have trouble sleeping at night.
I know of one other member here on AO who will say things do go bump in the night butit may be personal stuff so I won't bring that up, but if I ever go visit them I'm not sleeping.
No pun intended Negative -
What you speak of is called "Negative Proof" or "Proof of Impossibility".
Gore,Quote:
The negative proof fallacy often occurs in the debate of the existence of supernatural phenomena, in the following form:
* "A supernatural force must exist, because there is no proof that it does not exist".
I don't need an afterlife to give life meaning. Life, in and of itself, is reason to keep on going.
As for ghosts, I don't deny their existence. They may very well exist. However, I don't find the existence of ghosts as indicative of an afterlife. Who knows what these apparitions may represent, or where they may have come from. It would take alot more than a ghost for me to believe in an afterlife, let alone a creator.
Shag, I know, didn't mean to come off like that, but now I'm thinking of starting a Ghost thread in Cosmos to see what people here really believe when it comes to that.
A few years back we had one because my PFY had video of somethign he caught in a building he worked in and the thread was awesome; people came in and chimed in like a lot, showing their opinions but also giving what could be explanations for what was on the video which I still remember being weird. But it was kind of cool to see the people who work with video for their jobs showing how something like it could happen and even how far off the ground the ball was.
Hmmmm.... *Starting thread with links*.