Christianity

:cool: Hey guys,
Just a trivia detail, I printed out the thread from where stflook began it to WebCarnage's post of 3/8/02, 7:19P.M. It was 66 pages! What do you say we get a publisher and make ourselves some money? Just kidding. Now, I'd like to make a few points.

1. Yes, Christianity does share some things in common with Islam and especially Judaism. Christianity is essentially, the fulfilment of Judaism. Jesus Christ is the Messiah promised in the Old Testament. Christianity has its roots in Judaism. Chronologically Judaism was first, followed by Christianity, which was then followed by Islam. God gave the Jews two important institutions in the Old Testament. One was the Law. The law as given to Moses. The law described in minute detail what was acceptable behavior and what was not. God gave the law so that we would have no excuses and would not be able to plead ignorance concerning his will. It was meant to serve as a kind of spiritual "x-ray machine" and so show us our sin and how far we had strayed from God's will. The Ten Commandments (see Exodus 20:1-17) are a summary of God's moral will for humankind. God's laws in the Bible are meant to reveal our sin and show us that we need a Savior. God gave them to Israel so that when the promised Savior came they would realize their need for forgiveness. The second institution was the animal sacrifices. God had the Israelites sacrifice unblemished animals as a covering for their sins. This also was a preparation for the coming of Christ. It was to teach the Jews about the meaning of a substitutionary sacrifice for their sins. It was meant to be a graphic illustration of what Christ would do for us one day on the cross. All of these things pointed to Christ and what he would do. RC Green wrote way back on 2/23/02: "The purpose of Christianity is to offer something that (correct me if I'm wrong) isn't offered by the other religions, the forgiveness of sin." Yes, Christianity does have some common threads (pun intended with Judaism and Islam. But it claims (and does in my opinion) offer true forgiveness. All other religions (to my knowledge) either ignore sin or make a person try to be good enough to earn their way to God.

2. I might misunderstand you WebCarnage, but you seem to be thinking that I said God created sin. Correct me if I'm wrong. God did not create sin. Human beings did by disobeying God. God is the one who makes a way our sins can be forgiven through the cross.

3. Knowledge is fine. That's one reason I come to this site-- to gain more knowledge about computers. But knowledge can only take us so far. Science has multiplied our knowledge in manifold ways, but it hasn't made us any better morally. It hasn't taken the evil out of human hearts. It's only given us bigger and better machines to kill each other with.

4. God assures us of our forgiveness through his word the Bible, and through the witness of his Spirit in our hearts. We may not hear a voice saying "you're forgiven," but that doesn't mean God isn't speaking and giving assurance.

5. God sent his Son to die for us because even though we had his laws, we didn't live by them. It wouldn't have done him (or us) any good to send more instructions because we weren't living by the ones we had. So God did something new. He let Christ's death count as the punishment for our sins. And then he sent his Spirit to live in our hearts. Instead of following rules written in books we respond to the leading of God's Spirit in our hearts. Jesus' death on the cross is special and unique because only he is the sinless Son of God. He could have been executed in the electric chair. The important thing is that he did give himself as a sacrifice for our sins.

6. Jesus is God too. Christians believe in one God but three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus was God come to earth and born as a human being. Not half God and half human, but 100% God and 100% human.

7. If I caught my son with Sub7 I would make him write "I will not act like a skript kiddy by using lame programs to break into other people's computers 10,000 times." Then I would make him learn to program :D

If I seek to prove something, I must
appeal to authority.
If I want to measure the lenght of a
piece of wood, I appeal to the ruler.

If I want to certify the accuracy of my ruler,
I compare in to some international legal
standard.
Somewhere, the "standard" meter sits
and judges all the others.

If I, a created being, attempt to "prove"
the existance of god, what authority
shall I appeal to, in order to make my
proof?
If I possess enough authority to
prove that god exists,
then I also possess enough authority
to prove that he doesn't.

That wouldn't make sense, since I cannot
arbitrarily decide whether other humans
exist, much less whether or not god does.

If I appeal to logic, archeology, physics,
or history, I'm simply appealing to other
men to help me prove the question.
Those men then become the source
of the "proof".

They may have some special educational
training, but, in the end they did not create the
world. They didn't create god, and therefore
can't uncreate him.

Love him or hate him, only time will tell.
Each person will have to find out the hard way.
:cool:

Quote:

---

Originally posted here by Alcatraz
These posts are getting way too long for me to read. I do not have nearly a good enough attention span. So I'm going to start off on a new train of thought.

There are a lot of types of believers out there, and none of them have all the information. For example, I'd class PhirePhreak and chsh on the more extreme ends of belief and disbelief. And religions are quite a bit different too, and they make comparisons extremely hard. You can't compare Orthodox Judaism to Fundamentalist Islam, or Scientology to Christianity. It just don't work that way. So really, stereotypes are useless and insulting.

---

Who, hold on a sec here, how did I end up at the far end of the disbelief area?

Quote:

---

And a lot of these sterotypes stem from the strictest and worst examples of religion. And you have to keep in mind that not everything about religion should be taken literally. Does anyone REALLY believe that God created the world in a mere several days? I don't. I think God created the world and then set evolution rolling. So IMO, both views are right.

---

Quite possibly so, but that is what stereotypes do, they take the bad or easily made fun of part of a culture/class/race/etc., and they blanket that across the whole group. I try not to stereotype as much as I can, but keep in mind that some parts of a stereotype are true of certain people. You are guilty of stereotyping in this post Alcatraz. Purely because I debate how the world was created, and the existence of some super-powerful supreme sentient entity, I'm labeled a non-believer.

Quote:

---

Actually, Christianity didn't steal anything. The Old Testament is accepted by Christianity, Islan, and Judaism. And it wasn't for non-jews, it was for everyone. And the 637 other rules! Damn! I didn't know they had that many! And that's crazy, people start following rules instead of following God, which is not His purpose.

---

Actually, the 637 laws were created to keep the Jews happy and alive. Some of the stuff makes common sense. Two thousand years go they didn't have the refridgeration we have now, and eating pork could kill you, so it was made a religious law. Very intelligent if you ask me.

If you wish to debate judaism, I must step away, because my knowledge falls far short of that required for a debate.

Quote:

---

Who, hold on a sec here, how did I end up at the far end of the disbelief area?

---

I'm not going to take back or try and change what I said, because I did say it. But I think what I mean is that some posts seem to have more of edge to them. And it seems to me that your posts have more of that then other's do, which isn't really a bad thing.

Quote:

---

Quite possibly so, but that is what stereotypes do, they take the bad or easily made fun of part of a culture/class/race/etc., and they blanket that across the whole group. I try not to stereotype as much as I can, but keep in mind that some parts of a stereotype are true of certain people. You are guilty of stereotyping in this post Alcatraz.

---

I know, I know. I went back over your previous posts and I realized you didn't say that you don't believe in God. I think it might have been the "god wouldn't care if an asteroid hit earth" thing that got me thinking that. Boy, do I feel hypocritical...

Quote:

---

Actually, the 637 laws were created to keep the Jews happy and alive. Some of the stuff makes common sense. Two thousand years go they didn't have the refridgeration we have now, and eating pork could kill you, so it was made a religious law. Very intelligent if you ask me.

---

But if it was common sense stuff, why did they have to make it a law?

Quote:

---

But if it was common sense stuff, why did they have to make it a law?

---

A man steals bread from the 'bazaar' and gets punished:

A - Common Sense:
He would probably get his hand chopped off, no biggie - thats why he was born with two

B - Religious
You will suffer for the rest of your God-Given life and then live forever,...in eternal damnation

-------------

Which reason would You choose not to steal (or eat pork and poison yourself, for back then mold would grow from bad or no refrigeration)?

Cutting off a hand for that? Sounds like Islam's law, I don't know that Judaism had that tenet, did it? Far too extreme for me. Make the punishment fit the crime.

Quote:

---

Originally posted here by Alcatraz
I know, I know. I went back over your previous posts and I realized you didn't say that you don't believe in God. I think it might have been the "god wouldn't care if an asteroid hit earth" thing that got me thinking that. Boy, do I feel hypocritical...

---

No biggie. I didn't take it personally or anything, I just wanted to point that out.

Quote:

---

Originally posted here by Alcatraz
I know, I know. I went back over your previous posts and I realized you didn't say that you don't believe in God. I think it might have been the "god wouldn't care if an asteroid hit earth" thing that got me thinking that. Boy, do I feel hypocritical...

---

No biggie. I didn't take it personally or anything, I just wanted to point that out.

Quote:

---

Originally posted here by rcgreen
If I seek to prove something, I must
appeal to authority.
If I want to measure the lenght of a
piece of wood, I appeal to the ruler.

If I want to certify the accuracy of my ruler,
I compare in to some international legal
standard.
Somewhere, the "standard" meter sits
and judges all the others.

If I, a created being, attempt to "prove"
the existance of god, what authority
shall I appeal to, in order to make my
proof?
If I possess enough authority to
prove that god exists,
then I also possess enough authority
to prove that he doesn't.

That wouldn't make sense, since I cannot
arbitrarily decide whether other humans
exist, much less whether or not god does.

If I appeal to logic, archeology, physics,
or history, I'm simply appealing to other
men to help me prove the question.
Those men then become the source
of the "proof".

They may have some special educational
training, but, in the end they did not create the
world. They didn't create god, and therefore
can't uncreate him.

Love him or hate him, only time will tell.
Each person will have to find out the hard way.
:cool:

---

But you are forgetting a fundamental element...faith. Proof denies the need for faith, since faith is always related to the unknown or unknowable, the hoped for. My lack of a Christian belief structure isn't the result of my thinking that I 'know' or think I can 'prove' anything to the contrary. It's simply a lack of the capacity of faith neccessary to believe in it. Instinct, to a degree (that and never having it pounded into my head as a child). I have faith in plenty of other things, though, mind you...just not that.
I often wonder what the consequences of proving that a particular deity did, in fact, exist would be. Just imagine the Movie of the Week, the Pop-Superstardom, the edification...if I were a deity, I'd never show my face, nor reveal my presence physically to any of humanity nowadays. Christ DID live, a long time ago, and was treated with respect by some, and disdain by others...he was just a guy with some good ideas. I DO, however, have faith that he did not want any special treatment, but rather just to be heard. Not idolized, nor deified, nor argued over. Just for people to have faith in what he thought was right...just like anyone else.

Ouroboros

Quote:

---

Originally posted here by rcgreen
If I seek to prove something, I must
appeal to authority.
If I want to measure the lenght of a
piece of wood, I appeal to the ruler.

If I want to certify the accuracy of my ruler,
I compare in to some international legal
standard.
Somewhere, the "standard" meter sits
and judges all the others.

If I, a created being, attempt to "prove"
the existance of god, what authority
shall I appeal to, in order to make my
proof?
If I possess enough authority to
prove that god exists,
then I also possess enough authority
to prove that he doesn't.

That wouldn't make sense, since I cannot
arbitrarily decide whether other humans
exist, much less whether or not god does.

If I appeal to logic, archeology, physics,
or history, I'm simply appealing to other
men to help me prove the question.
Those men then become the source
of the "proof".

They may have some special educational
training, but, in the end they did not create the
world. They didn't create god, and therefore
can't uncreate him.

Love him or hate him, only time will tell.
Each person will have to find out the hard way.
:cool:

---

But you are forgetting a fundamental element...faith. Proof denies the need for faith, since faith is always related to the unknown or unknowable, the hoped for. My lack of a Christian belief structure isn't the result of my thinking that I 'know' or think I can 'prove' anything to the contrary. It's simply a lack of the capacity of faith neccessary to believe in it. Instinct, to a degree (that and never having it pounded into my head as a child). I have faith in plenty of other things, though, mind you...just not that.
I often wonder what the consequences of proving that a particular deity did, in fact, exist would be. Just imagine the Movie of the Week, the Pop-Superstardom, the edification...if I were a deity, I'd never show my face, nor reveal my presence physically to any of humanity nowadays. Christ DID live, a long time ago, and was treated with respect by some, and disdain by others...he was just a guy with some good ideas. I DO, however, have faith that he did not want any special treatment, but rather just to be heard. Not idolized, nor deified, nor argued over. Just for people to have faith in what he thought was right...just like anyone else.

Ouroboros