Who thinks Bush (jr.) is a good president?

One other point I would like to bring up is a lot of people say we need to get out of Iraq, but thats not that easy to do. We are committed over there, and cannot back away. If we were to back away, we (republicans), and President Bush would be criticized for not having the strength to stay in there. So either way, the democrats try to make a play on us.

If we stay in, we are just losing American Lives.
If we move out, then we are to weak to enforce our policy.
Its a no win scenario. No matter what happens, the President will be criticized.

We are in it for the long run untill Iraq can become a stable country with its own government.

get over the rebublican-democrat part... If clinton would have done the exact same (or whoever else) I still would critisise him. The fact bush took a crap on world peace agreements is what I don't like. The political stamp doesn't mather to me <hidden>I'm a nazi anyway... apparently</hidden>

cheyenne1212: Iraq was a no win situation to begin with, nomater waht teh outcome it ends up costing US lives and lowering the international good will towards the US (especialy in the mideast where we need to start building goodwill). this is where bush screwed up and personaly I don't see any viable exit stratagy comeing from his camp. We need a very savy carismatic president to smooth over international relations next time round, its definatly not bush but I have no idea who it could be.....Clark perhaps but he has his drawbacks.....some one convince powel to abandon ticket and run.

I think Bballad that is what people want. What if, the opposite happened? The Iraq people get a good government going that is fit for their people and it becomes a nation of peace and stability with it's Arab neighbors? The bottom line is people, for their own personal reasons will undermine and destroy that chance for power.

removing a dictator and installing a democratic government is only one argument for the iraq war, it's the last argument I heard in chronological order, it's not yet half done and it isn't sure it will be achieved
what about the other agruments...? the ones the war was initially started for and not the ones that were thought up when the army already reached baghdad

Iraq might of been a no win situation, but it needed to be done. Now Iraq will for once have a non dictatorial leader, and perhaps continue to keep that for a long time.

The reason bush did not continue with U.N support was because of the wonderful French. Since they would not agree it, and a couple other countries, then the U.N would not back us. So as you might imagine, We said forget them and went in there and did what needed to be done.

6 countries were labeled as threats not all at once, Cuba and Syria were added later. Still think Cuba is funny, but CIA says they are actively seeking bio on market? Who knows, but I can say this, countries just don't lie around while others develop powers, they actively seek them in secret. In case anyone is wondering these actions are made illegal by national treaties, not exactly a US viewpoint meaning the treaties that make them illegal are not supported by only the USA, the world has adopted them. Out of 200 some countries on the planet that is still kind of high but not greatly significant. But who would argue that, when these countries are named, people associate them with terrorists or ruthless dictatorships? I've said them before but here they are again: Cuba, Libya, Syria, Iran, Iraq, and North Korea.

As for the US perspective. Some may note that my entire adult life from the age of 18 until the age of 30ish I lived outside the US borders. Those are very impressionable years and I have learned allot from my human brothers abroad. I am more in tune with Europe and the Middle East than my own country and felt like a complete stranger when coming back to chase a cute blonde across 3 countries. :p My viewpoint and facts that are presented are often used from sources outside the US. But admittedly, I am a citizen of this country and I grew up in a small farming town in Ohio so if I occasionally desire to preserve my attitude toward democracy in the form of supporting an elected official, even one's I didn't vote for, in favor of buzz words propagating in popular culture with no basis in fact other than personal feelings... then I apologize.

Fact - I did not vote for George W. Bush. He isn't evil. He is a man in a position trying to cope and make the best decisions he can. To ignore 10 years of constant conflict with Iraq and 3, yes 3 different presidencies is not in tune with my way of thinking. The question has risen here by several people. Did Saddam comply? My answer is No.

More to follow:

Saddam kicked all UN inspectors out in 1998. Why? He wanted them to declare that all his programs were dismantled. They would not. in fact he launched quite a campaign against the entire affair between 97 and 98 with backing from Sudan. The result, Inspectors gone. How is that in compliance? The UN tried to impress the importance on Iraq that they comply with the resolution. Saddam shrugged his shoulders.

Let me give you a condensed time line of UN Iraq situations. Oh this is from the UN not a newspaper or the US. UN recorded history in archive.

1991
Security counsel accepts RES 686 the states Iraq will cease hostilities. You see they attacked another country and ransacked its citizen’s houses. Bet you would be mad if a Canadian came with a gun and took your house and tossed you children onto the street for their own benefit. Iraq accepts this on the next day, which is Mar. 3.

Next the council passed a resolution that forces Iraq to stop suppressing it’s own citizens! Again the next day Iraq says OK, we’ll be nice (March 6) By Iraq I mean the government; which is Saddam since Saddam is a dictator of that country. He keeps power through internal violence. What this really was in my own personal opinion was a way to allow enforcement of protection to the Kurds in the North because it established the no fly zone in north and south of Iraq. Ok this is getting long. Sorry, speed up… the first nuclear inspection was later that month around the 21st. Followed that year by several others. On June 21st the United Nations secretary general outlined a plan to eliminate his WMD. They were there, no doubt about it. He was ordered by basically the planet governing council to STOP.

June 23, Iraq is caught by the Security Council concealing nuclear weapons. The next day the council president, not US president, condemned the violation or Non-compliance. On Augist 15th another Counsel resolution demands Iraq HALT it’s Nuclear program immediately (res. 707). Next day Iraq says NO by objecting to the resolution. On Sep 21st Iraq refuses to allow inspectors to leave a site with documents. They take them away and do not release them until December. Meanwhile Resolution 715 is passed that sets a system in place to monitor Saddam.

1992 is full of further attempts to not comply with UN resolutions. After debates in Jan and Feb, Iraq issues a statement in March that agrees to fully comply with disclosing it’s full WMD capability. In July Iraq refuses to allow any inspectors into the Ministry of Agriculture until the security council president declares them in Breach (again). Ok this is getting longer so I will just state non-compliance stuff even though other resolutions are related to other political problems.

Laundry list.

1993 – 6/10 Iraq (Saddam) refuses to allow UN cameras at weapons factories. 7/7 A month later Iraq says ok to cameras. As usual a lot of time to “move” things. Later in November Saddam finally (year later) says ok to resolution 715.

1994 – Oct. Iraq moves troops and masses them at the border of Kuwait. The coalition counters and movers troops as well. Border conflicts go back and forth and Iraq finally accepts the border.

1995 – Apr. This one always got me. I didn’t mention it but right at the beginning the UN passes a resolution to allow Iraq to sell oil for money to take care of people. They refused and on April 14th they were offered resolution 986 to sell oil. Saddam refused again. June; Iraq threatens to halt UN coorperation if Security Council report isn’t “favorable” What the hell kind of sense was that? Jul; Saddam ADMITS, for the first time that and official biological weapons program exists. Duh. Aug; Saddam submits “full, final, and complete declaration. Also in august: Kamal, who is in charge of WMD DEFECTS. Iraq also withdraws yet another deadline stating that it’s biological weapons program is more extensive than previously acknowledged. In November Iraq submits another, yes another declaration of it’s programs. On the 10th of November Jordan intercepts missile gyroscopes from Russia.

1996 – Getting closer. March 8, Saddam refuses inspector access to Ministry of Irrigation for 8 hours. Why? March 11 Saddam refuses inspector access to Republican Guard training facility for 12 hours. Why? Something must be up at his elite guard training facility because on June 11th, he refuses access to the facility so the UN wanted to hover a copter over it. He also refused that. Ummm, why? UN counters by adopting resolution 1060 DEMANDING that Saddam allow access to those sites and that he must comply. So the next day he blocks access to 2 more facilities. The UN sends and envoy to Baghdad who crops up time and time again when there is trouble, Rolf Ekeus. They reach an agreement for inspection protocol in June but then again on Jul 16 Saddam refuses access to 2 facilities. The Security Council declares Iraq in GROSS obstruction to it’s obligations. In November Saddam refuses to allow missile remnants to be removed for inspection.

Shall I continue, it get’s worse in 97-98, or are we still under the impression that Saddam is a little kitten who complied with everything the UN desired? And he is a poor victim of abuse. I could continue details if anyone likes but here is the recap of later years.

1997 Iraq blocks more and more inspections
1998 Iraq halts all cooperation and removes inspectors from country
2000 Political disputes UN tries to re-establish monitoring of weapons programs
2001 Same as 2000, in specific US and UK deploy new radar to quell Iraq aggression to aircraft.
2002 September 12, UN addresses Saddam about Non-compliance with weapons inspections. September 17th. Saddam says OK you can come back and inspect me all you want. I am clean. November 8th, UN Security Council adopts Resolution 1441 detailing enhanced weapons inspection. Saddam agrees with no issues. Since the gun and the police are outside his house after the probation officer knocked on the door dozens of times over 10 years.

Now does this justify the war? That isn’t the point I was forced to make, the point is compliance. Hope these facts help.

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Iraq might of been a no win situation, but it needed to be done. Now Iraq will for once have a non dictatorial leader, and perhaps continue to keep that for a long time.

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removing a dictator and installing a democratic government is only one argument for the iraq war, it's the last argument I heard in chronological order, it's not yet half done and it isn't sure it will be achieved
what about the other agruments...? the ones the war was initially started for and not the ones that were thought up when the army already reached baghdad

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The reason bush did not continue with U.N support was because of the wonderful French. Since they would not agree it, and a couple other countries, then the U.N would not back us. So as you might imagine, We said forget them and went in there and did what needed to be done.

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UN veto use since 1986 china: 2 france: 3 brittain: 8 US: 32 russia: 0

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6 countries were labeled as threats not all at once, Cuba and Syria were added later. Still think Cuba is funny, but CIA says they are actively seeking bio on market? Who knows, but I can say this, countries just don't lie around while others develop powers, they actively seek them in secret. In case anyone is wondering these actions are made illegal by national treaties, not exactly a US viewpoint meaning the treaties that make them illegal are not supported by only the USA, the world has adopted them. Out of 200 some countries on the planet that is still kind of high but not greatly significant. But who would argue that, when these countries are named, people associate them with terrorists or ruthless dictatorships? I've said them before but here they are again: Cuba, Libya, Syria, Iran, Iraq, and North Korea.

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so the fact is "CIA says they are actively seeking bio on market"... now the proof

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Did Saddam comply? My answer is No.

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2002 September 12, UN addresses Saddam about Non-compliance with weapons inspections. September 17th. Saddam says OK you can come back and inspect me all you want. I am clean. November 8th, UN Security Council adopts Resolution 1441 detailing enhanced weapons inspection. Saddam agrees with no issues. Since the gun and the police are outside his house after the probation officer knocked on the door dozens of times over 10 years.

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he did comply... the fact he didn't comply 10 years before was because the world didn't bother enough UNTIL for whatever reason (many say oil) the focus returns and BUsh comes up with whatever reasons (the political game: terrorists, evil dictator, wmd's, non-compliance) and sees a need to attack in a few weeks while the UN were investigating the things. There is a peacefull solution, but for some reason the US doesn't have the time (after 10 years of ignorance by everyone INCLUDING the US) to wait for that and throws up another piece on chess board "Iraq is sabotaging our inspections". ATTACK !!!!!! That's bullshit and doesn't have a single **** to do with weapons because iraq doesn't have them and not with compliance either.

Cuba is funny I agree, perhaps absolute power corrupts individuals to seek more power. I would guess a dictator loses sense of reality because they come to view themselves as gods? Possible seeking all no matter the cost, imagine how you may feel with a new weapon in hand!

Since Saddam refused to allow weapons inspectors anywhere near suspected weapons sites from 1998 until the end of 2002; the US HAD to rely on intelligence, that's all there was. Some analyst group had to make the call, right or wrong that Saddam, based on history and seemingly desire to make puppets out of the UN, could have been a threat. That was presented to congress along with whatever intelligence there was, passed and ratified by the senate. It wasn't even that close of a vote. The UN didn’t come to the same conclusion.

We tend to look at a country and sympathize with it's people and overlook their dictator and what he in general can be capable of. I bet we have so many loyal spies in Cuba that the intelligence is excellent. They are hard to recruit in the Islamic world because of religious belief. Even the good ones are subject to turn because of the daily influence of anti western doctrine.

Now I never said I was in complete favor of the war. I said I understand the possibilities that lead to it and I don’t buy into the pop culture daddy brouhaha. But I do support it, because my elected leaders thought it was in my best interest because they are reacting to a vicious attack that killed thousands and Saddam has been playing the international tough guy puppet game until he got bit on the head. I think the bastard is in Syria but I am working on it. I would also bet he is in contact with Bin, since he has stepped up recruitment in Iraq. **** there I go speculating again. Sorry. I also support it because if it works a new nation will be born that would be wonderful. Iraq has some cool places and the time for ruthless maniacal dictators should be limited. Don’t the people of earth deserve to have some basic freedoms in life? Like being able to teach or go to school?

Probable cause is there to believe something mischievous was happening. If the American people would support it I could say let’s get Castro and give Cuba back to Cubans and then lets go after Iran - do anyone who posts here have any idea what Iran is like? Iraq is a country club and there I go again straying from the subject. I will tell you, I wish Bush would have waited for an additional a flagrant blocking of inspectors, but that would have lost momentum that may have never been gained again and those who we elected decided the time was right to kill a snake. I hope it works and the Iraqi people elect their own representatives who promote some of the freedoms I enjoy.

Three year total and even a year after 9/11 when Saddam knew the guns were pointing at him, saw nothing and HE did not comply, he saw the noose and went into ass saving mode.