i went to catholic school... they dont ahve a clue what "evil" is. they jsut go by what the people above them say, who, in turn, blindly follow the person above them..... it just keeps going like that...
Printable View
i went to catholic school... they dont ahve a clue what "evil" is. they jsut go by what the people above them say, who, in turn, blindly follow the person above them..... it just keeps going like that...
If you don't worship God, you probably don't believe in the somewhat-screwed-up Christian afterlife. So then you wouldn't believe in hell, and if I were you, I wouldn't worry about it. Cause really, why believe in hell but not in God?Quote:
I am confused. I have free will not to believe/worship in god, but if I don't then I go to hell? How is that any different from slavery? A gilded cage is still a cage.
I don't know if I'll contradict anything I've said before, but that's okay, my views are changing as I've followed this thread. I think you can worship whatever you want and still get to Heaven. Doing good deeds go to God, even if they're in somebody else's name. Likewise, doing something evil in God's name goes to Satan.
The Christians who made up the rules about having no choice but to believe in God were selfish, greedy, and interested only in personal power.
So far, people have just pointed out flaws in Christianity, most of which I agree with. Nobody has really argued against God himself, or the principles religion. I wonder why that is? (Not a rhetorical question, I really am curious.)
Hmm, this one is a tough answer really. I guess for myself the answer would really be I believe because I believe. Now, I'm guessing that isn't going to be a really good answer for you, so I will try to stumble through an answer.Quote:
Originally posted here by jcmcb
I am confused. I have free will not to believe/worship in god, but if I don't then I go to hell? How is that any different from slavery? A gilded cage is still a cage. [/B]
Please understand this is what I believe, and not a personal criticism of any one else, or their beliefs!
You don't have to believe, or accept Jesus. That is your choice. But free will and choice lead you down particular paths in life. And the path for not accepting Jesus is going to hell. It's not slavery though the way I see it. Slavery would be something negative, something that required you to do something bad, or against your will. The Christian life is a life of freedom. Most of the posts I have read here are by people claiming to live by morals and standards anyway. All Christianity is is a way to have leadership and guidance in your spiritual life, to have someone to call on in times of trouble, and someone to thank in times of abundance and happiness.
I get the feeling here that a lot of you have had very bad experiences with organized religion, and I can respect that. But as my Grandma used to say, you don't throw the baby out with the bath water. The thing you have to remember is that preachers, rabbis, priests, or any other type of spiritual leaders ARE PEOPLE TOO. They struggle with the same problems you do, and some of them are jerks....just like the guy you work with, or go to school with, or live down the hall from. But God is not. God is perfect love and he loves you with a perfect love. The only person you have to answer to in this life is ultimately God. And the nice thing about that is that he knows you better than your mom does, and he loves you anyway. Enough to send his son to die for you, so that you may have eternal life. I as a mom think that sacrificing my child for you would be enough to make me feel like you owed me a little loyalty. And that the choice is still yours, but maybe there would be a negative consequence for that choice.
Whew...this is tough.
Please let me know if I've come anywhere close to answering your question. It's a tough one to answer, because I am not all that scientific, and like I said, I believe because I believe, and that's where it gets tough for you analytical guys. I have my bible, and my faith. That's all I need to get me through.
Deb :)
Alcatraz/Deb -
Thanks for trying to answer my question. I am glad you realize that I am not trying to in any way "dis" your religion or your beliefs...
Al - I believe in a god, but not in a heaven. If any good deeds get you into heaven (lets say it does exist), whose judges the good deeds? We all have different definitions of good after all...
Deb - I think you missed my point. My question is thus: If I have to believe in Jesus to be saved (ie not suffer eternal torment), how do I have a choice? The idea of freedom, at least to me, seems pointless if there are no alternatives. This is not about (at least to me) the various rules that others say "god" needs, but the idea that you have to worship this all powerful being. If he is are creator, and loves us, then it shouldn't matter if we acknowledge him or not. There should be no test for admittance. A parent loves a child unconditionally. Period.
Just my thoughts...
Makes perfect sense, Debwalin...
'I believe because I believe'... guess that says it all...
I live by my own morals and standards, and the only person I'll ever answer to is myself. And yes, my morals and standards probably are pretty the much the same as yours, but I prefer living by those standards because I myself believe in them, not because I know I'll go to hell if I don't live by them...
And I don't believe you'll go to hell if you don't believe the same things I do... That's the difference ;)
And yes, I'd owe you a little loyalty if you'd sacrifice your child for me... I'd probably have a minor conscience problem if I didn't... I'd have to live with myself for the rest of my life... That's worse than having to face God....
I have my own faith... That's all I need to get me through...
Take care...
Neg.
Jcmcb....whew, thank YOU for not thinking I was being too whatever....it's very hard to try to explain something you believe to someone who doesn't believe the same without sounding pushy, self righteous and altogether difficult!
Neg....lol, I'm glad it's enough for you because I'm afraid that I believe because I believe is as good as I get when things get really tough...it's hard to explain something you just have faith in!
Okay, let me see if I can try again. I actually did get your point I think jcmcb, but trying to get from my brain to my fingers occasionally creates a traffic jam, and not everything I mean to say gets through. Let me see...I think that God deserves a little something back, at least acknowledgement, for creating us. I have said that God is perfect love, but it also says in the bible that God is a jealous God. He wants love and respect and acknowledgement. I will admit that I see your point, and I don't have a really good answer right off the top of my head. I don't understand all there is to understand. But it just makes sense to me that if I had created this world, and everything in it I would want some worship for it. BUT I am not God, and me speaking for him is kind of, well, lame!!! And as for the rules made up by men, that is why God sent Jesus to be sacrificed. That way, your good deeds DON'T get you into heaven.
You don't have to do anything at all to get into heaven, except accept Jesus. I think it would have been kind of nerve racking to me to wonder every day if I had been good enough to get into heaven.
I guess you're right to some extent, there really isn't a viable other option. The idea of choice and free will speaks more to why there is evil in the world if God is good! I don't know how to explain something I just believe any better than that. Here's all the proof I have....when things are really bad, and I don't see any way out of it...I pray. And I pray hard. And you know what.....it almost always works out for me. That may not be enough proof for some, but for me, it works. The trick is remembering to say thank you, too.
It does say in the bible that God loves unconditionally, but he can't help you if you don't ask. He can't save you if you don't ask. Have you ever heard the parable of the lost lamb? If you haven't I will tell you, but if you have, I will try to save (a little) space by not explaining it all here. But that is the message God has for us....he will leave the whole flock behind in order to save one, and that there is more rejoicing in heaven for the one who was saved, than for all of those already there. Heaven weeps for every sinner lost.
Ahem, I have taken way more than my fair share here.....so just one more thing....
Neg....the difference between me and God is that he loved the WHOLE WORLD enough to sacrifice his son......I can't think of one person I love that much! (except maybe for my son...and that would be self defeating!lol)
Please don't feel like I am preaching to you, I just want to try to make you understand why I believe.....and also this is really stretching my brain!! I am a regular old person who screws up just as bad as ANYBODY else...trust me. Like I said before, I'm sure God isn't too happy with me a lot of the time, but I can ask for, and receive forgiveness. That's why I keep trying. Because no matter what I do, if I ask for forgiveness I will receive it.....it's a pretty good feeling!
Deb -
I too feel the bottleneck between the old Gray Computer and the New Titanium one...
Two things I still don't understand/agree with...
1) Origninal Sin - I don't believe I am or should be responsible for what my predecssors did... it just doesn't make sense (not that you mentioned it, but I thought I ought to).
2) If good deeds don't get you into heaven, and only belief in Jesus does, then why can I doubt Jesus? It seems to me that its very cruel for god to have a set of rules to follow, and then not tell everyone (God has yet to vist me, at any rate). If God came to me and said "Worship me or got to hell" thats one thing. But at the moment all I have to go on is the word of some others who are attaching there own meanings/ideas to what god may or may not have to say. Since I belive god would care about me following his/her rules, I don't believe that the bible/worship of Jesus is valid, having been handed down only thru the mouth of man.
(brief aside about hell)
I once talked with with a Minister about hell. He told me that he believed in the bible, so he belived in hell, but he also belived in the infinte love of god, so he thought hell was empty. I would agree with the that idea.
I totally agree, and that's one thing that bothers me about Hinduism. Who care what I did in my past life?Quote:
Origninal Sin - I don't believe I am or should be responsible for what my predecssors did... it just doesn't make sense (not that you mentioned it, but I thought I ought to).
Following Jesus gets you in, only if you mean it. Empty prayers don't get you anything. But good deeds do. You can get to heaven without knowing who Jesus is, as long you live a decent life.Quote:
If good deeds don't get you into heaven, and only belief in Jesus does, then why can I doubt Jesus? It seems to me that its very cruel for god to have a set of rules to follow, and then not tell everyone (God has yet to vist me, at any rate). If God came to me and said "Worship me or got to hell" thats one thing. But at the moment all I have to go on is the word of some others who are attaching there own meanings/ideas to what god may or may not have to say. Since I belive god would care about me following his/her rules, I don't believe that the bible/worship of Jesus is valid, having been handed down only thru the mouth of man.
Shh! Don't tell anybody! Hell's the big secret of the world, it's just an empty threat! I have to say that I too agree with the idea that there's noone there.Quote:
I once talked with with a Minister about hell. He told me that he believed in the bible, so he belived in hell, but he also belived in the infinte love of god, so he thought hell was empty. I would agree with the that idea.
I have a different approach ... What if God isn't perfect and only loves who He wants when He wants. Is it that difficult to beleive? I doubt it,...Quote:
Originally posted by Deb
God is perfect love and he loves you with a perfect love
Imagine our purpose on Earth is only to entertain God, what if he never even thought once about a heaven or hell, he doesn't like half the people here so why should any of us live forever, whether it be in pain and suffering or happy and fun. What if he just wanted "something to do" for the rest of eternity, and himself, created good and evil just to make some conflict arouse.
What if God wasn't perfect, made mistakes, got hurt, felt pain...just like everything else. Honestly, God could have just been a clumsy one, and thats why half the things that are, are. What if God didn't have everlasting love for everybody, and had to choose only a few. Or that God did infact have everlasting love,...but choose not to share it.
Things wouldn't be so different if that were the truth mind you...
But if you noticed... my whole post was built on "what if's" and "imagines" ... And might I add that thats what a "good" religion is based upon too. So many "what if there was a higher beings" turned into "what if he really cared for us and made heaven" then finally to "God send me to Heaven when I die". From a total uneducated guess, to the front, life-or-death fact that there is a heaven and people do infact go there...
Ironic.
I am going to make an intelligent well thought out reply to your post WebCarnage and jcmcb....as soon as I get done thinking. You guys are giving my brain cells a serious workout. But I am still thinking, just didn't want you to think I had bailed on you because the questions got tough. ;)
Deb