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Have you seen the interview with Deans mother? Here are a few "off" quotes, meaning they aren't exact since I heard it on TV. "When Dean was a child we harldy referred to the servents as 'servents' " - "Each time a child was born (Dean's birth) we had to convert the dining room into a nursery, why there was hardly enough room for his live in nurse." Lol. There is a working class citizen in touch with the grass root Americana.
The president elect and the Republican Party scrubbed the ballots in Florida? How did they do that? Are you saying there is a break down in the security of Florida's voting system? A democratic controlled presidency let the republican commandos subvert a voting process? Or was it just that the race was close and the real subversion was the Democratic Party trying to distort reality? You can argue the validity of his election, fact is: it's legal and he's been there two years. The race was close, which is a good thing. People cared a little more last time it seems.
What exactly is the issue with the Electoral College? The states that win a majority cast a vote for that party. Simple, you win a state you get the vote in the college. Very rarely does an Electoral College representative vote against a state who won popular vote in that state. If the country wasn't so big and spread out, or if the founding fathers were not afraid of overly populace areas presiding their morals and standards on the entire country, I would agree with you. But this system allows populace states to have more power in an election while giving smaller states the ability to check or swing an election.
Under the system candidates MUST win popular support in a state to get the votes. What is wrong with that? Do I need to list all the past Democratic presidents who lost the popular vote? You want to eliminate a balance mechanism in the system in order to satisfy an eager desire of a minority? I am not willing to toss out the FRAMEWORK of the American Constitution so easily. This election set no new precedence and was actually tame in comparison to past issues, including JFK - his validity was still argued, even as he was being assassinated. :(
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Bush is now conquering OPEC? I wonder how many members of the Oil producing countries feed the hatred via web sites and propagate their own viewpoints and portray them as American in origin.
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Besides the increased deficit, note that the total isn't Bush alone, it's 200 years worth. But besides the deficit, what damage has been done? Please don't list conspiracy theories or the fact that our freedoms have disappeared, casting us into a new dark age where it is not possible to travel abroad and conduct commerce or visit relatives. Also don't list isolated incidents where some Old people placed a religious plaque someplace or a coal mine is opened. Those items have little effect on me and I can counter every little detail with every president for the last 40 years. So what is bad? Oh you can mention the unemployment rate, but I blame that on Y2K fallout and the fact that our epicenter of commerce was violently eliminated in a flame of glass and steel. But you can blame Bush if you like.
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If you are going to pray, make sure it's not publicly because you have eliminated that. Oh and make sure you don't run an antibush commercial close to an election, that freedom was eliminated to great admiration by those who oppose the party as well. Bush is no photo master or press master, he is the worse I have seen at it for a long time? You think he is good at it? Perhaps the real issue is: his policy fits well with a majority of Americans? Could that be it? No, it's a vast conspiracy at brain control for the mentally retarded. ;)
/Edit spelling as usual
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Winning an alection doesn't mean the majority of americans wanted him for president at all... he just "won", but that's an american thing I guess.
As for US vs Iraq. Can you tell me something Iraq (Sadaam in specific) did what the US (Bush and prior presidents because Sadaam ruled Iraq longer then any president, so the timescheme has to fit) did not do. I'm talking about the evil bad stuff of course.
And to put the antionline cosmos mentality to it, please use non first party, non left win, non right wing etc. sources to prove your facts.
Cheers
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I don't need justification outside of my own influences; but if you desire justification just ask "Why didn't Saddam just open things up and comply with countless resolutions?” If one can’t accept those items along with historical records, then there is no justification. Even if you take that route, our president cannot go to war without the entire governing body approving it.
People like to compare Bush to Hitler. It’s an inciting mechanism to get people rallied against the president chosen by legal and established means to represent the people. It’s comical because even in the same breath they pour sympathy into a man who is in reality the most like Hitler in the factual sense of his words and actions. I cannot see him as a victim, only his people. Right or wrong, justified or not, it's a good process to have happening.
Anti-support for the reasons we went to war are justified in some cases, but to not support a peaceful resolution to the conflict and success of the United States and Iraq, is a politically motivated cop out. To not support it implies Saddam is a Victim who should be reinstated and returned to normalcy, even though his original rise to power was through a violent removal of the governing body before him. It took several tries in fact. The issue for me is: who can institute a peaceful and successful resolution to Iraq, one the people embrace? If Bush has a secret crime syndicate, I don’t care. They all do. I want my country to negotiate a successful conclusion to meaningless acts of aggression by egomaniacs who roam the planet with no recourse on their actions. Don’t go back into history and tell me we put him there because we didn’t do it out of random acts of aggression and ill thought just “because” The alternative was to let an even greater egomaniac over run Iraq and flood the section with even greater extreme influences.
I just try and speculate what an alternative is. I don't see one regardless who is at the forefront of American power. They all say the same thing and no one offers an alternative to the current momentum. No one with any support or clout anyway.
John F. Kennedy also did not win by popular vote. If popular vote ruled America in the sense you want it too, policy will strictly be applied by the east coast and no other state or populous voice would be heard outside of someplace like California (along with the key Eastern States. The Electoral College is a good thing in my opinion of balancing a democracy. Just like the House and the Senate balance power with a judicial branch to check things. Without the College many great Presidents in the past would have NEVER been elected and John was just the latest outside of this last election. And I am not saying Bush is great at all, I don't put him in the boat with John but like John he doesn't stand by and let events take control, he is choosing to pre-empt them. It's been around since the inception of our government, it's not like that should surprise anyone, even if one is so angered by the election that they want to dismantle the broader voice of the people. Without it there would be no swing states, it is ingrained within the constitution.
If several hundred terrorists hadn’t infiltrated and used American trust and respect to people traveling inside the US to hide and plot the destruction of our cities on our soil using our compassion, then we would be having a very different and highly modified discussion, of which I would most likely be on your side of the box. But reality serves.
If the majority of the United States does not feel the way I do, then their voice will be heard. If they do, then the opposition will get worse and America will divide itself even further because a few have lost faith in democracy. Conspiracy and hate fuel those desires.
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I think Bush has done an average job in some areas and totally dropped the ball in others. My big concern with him isn't the tax cut, although I'd sure like to have seen something from it. I don't make enough to deserve a tax cut, I guess. My problem is with the loss of freedom we're seeing. Patriot Act 2 is a joke and Uncle Sam is the one laughing for putting it over on us. It amazes me how many sheep in this country went along with it, believing the Govt can actually protect them from a terrorist strike.
I've got to echo Benjamin Franklin. This isn't exact but close "A people who will surrender the least of their essential liberties for the promise of more security deserve neither liberty nor security."
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I have just kind of browsed aimlessly to the various posts in this thread. I have noticed some interesting views and.... err "concepts". I noticed, as did just about everyone, I am quite sure, that the opinion poll is a teeny-tiny bit, uhm... biased. I do not want to share my opinion in direction... or as others might see it "factions" But I did enjoy all of your posts :drink:
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Why doesn't anyone talk about the real issue...Government in general....What we face each day is not an issue of whether or not we have a good president...It is an issue of whether or not we have a good government. To that Poll, I would answer a huge resounding NO....Oh I know that many would brand my point of view as being extremely radical, but I assure you it is based in good sound reasoning and logic. It is no secret to anyone that the American public is being constantly ripped off by petty politicians at every level. That our rights under the Constitution have been eroded to the point where even a decent lawyer can circumvent its original intent. We have a bunch of crooks at every level of government in this country and EVERYBODY knows it...But...no one wants to do anything about it...The only reason we have a two-party system is to keep the hearts and minds of the American people at odds so during the confusion the political money families can push their ivy-league (or ivy-league approved) candidates into the white house. I AM NOT a radical or political extremist. I am just an average Joe who is tired of having someone pee down my back and tell me its raining. As a matter of fact, I am planning a run for a congressional seat in the very near future, just so I can have a platform to speak. I Pray to God Almighty that the people of this country get their heads out of their asses long enough to look at what is really going on in this country. Our schools are suffering while we spend BILLIONS of dollars in defense protecting ourselves from enemies created by our own political leaders decisions and policies. If America was living up to it's true motto of peace and tolerance, we would not have to fight with everybody else on the planet...The truth is our governing powers that be ARE intent on world domination at any cost and our political system is the most corrupt in the world. We need to clean house and put some good old time honest people back in the seats of power and then we as a country can return to living a decent and productive life again...As for now, the slave has become the master and all of the US citizens and others in this country are merely fodder for the 4% of richest people in the country who will continue to get richer on your backs while we muddle through our dailey grinds hoping for the American Dream that no longer is available to us....It is not to late to put things right...Stop voting for whoever the media tells you to vote for..finds candidates that really care and push them.....Wouldn't it be a hoot if they held an election and nobody came??? Honestly guys and girls..think about it...
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Before running for office, you might want to spend some time going around looking at other governments, since ours is the most corrupted in the world. Get an idea of what's out there and make good decisions when you come back. :)
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Ahh, RoadClosed, I don't think we're the most corrupt in the world. One of the most, maybe, or in the top five, but not the worst. All you have to do is ask why somebody running for office will spend millions of their own money, never mind contributions, for a job that pays $160G a year give or take a few. Kerry has dumped a huge amount of his own money into his presidential bid. He'll never make that money back if he's elected. Congressmen serve 3 or 4 terms and retire with 2 and 3 million dollars in retirement benefits. If they aren't corrupt, they've damned sure taken care of themselves. I could go into them having the best health insurance program in the country (that we pay most of), while people like me can't afford health insurance, but won't bother.
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Luckily, I have had the opportunity to experience many different countries. I lived in Germany and traveled extensively throughout Europe, I have a ten year business visa and have traveled to India and Asia many times. I go to Mexico probably twice a year and so I think I have got a very good idea of what's out there. In many of the countries I have visited there is definite and obvious corruption in their government as well. But in truth, they do not try to hide it from their own people. That is just the way it is...In America it seems our politicians don't even trust or respect us. They attempt to personify images of squeakey-clean moralist who would jump on a grenade for the good of the people when in fact they are doing business illegaly behind closed doors so their true intent and purpose can be disquised. Our Government is deceptive, dishonorable and corrupted all in the effort to fleece the American middle-class so that a few superior wealthy groups of elitist people can sway power. Ours is the deepest and most dishonest kind of corruption. It is corruption without honor and the American people should be ashamed to allow it to continue for so long unchecked...I know the point you are trying to make Roadclosed......That we have the best country in the world and therefore the best government in the world versus all others...Well, that is the purt spoon fed line that has been drilled into every citizens head since birth but it is untrue. We have the best country because our working-class has the finest work ethic..We have the best country because we have 200 years of pride instilled into our citizenry and we have the best country because we have kicked ass in almost every conflict we have faced..It has NOTHING to do with our government. We would be better off if we put government back into Pandoras box and practiced true democracy as was planned..The founders of this country were empassioned men in their 30's and 40's..today..Congress and the senate are made up of men with an average age of 62..What do you think is wrong with this picture? America has lost it's passion..we need to get it back...The only way to do that is to do away with "LIFETIME POLITICIANS" and let new blood take the reins. Men who are not jaded by old concepts and visons of world domination. We have lost our economic and financial edge in the world economy even though we have the finest workforce in the world. We have lost it because the men in power are so fueled by greed and graft that they would sell their own mothers for a few sheckles from somewhere else. They envision a world economy controlled by the US because of military power and technological superiority..not because of leadership, work ethic and knowledge. I know to some of you this sounds very extreme. I am not a political zealot...I am not some conspiracy theorist on the outside looking in. I have personally seen and experienced what I'm talking about. Believe me when I say that if the American people do not stand up soon for their rights and priviledges in this country..It will be too late..There needs to be a revolution in this country..I'm not talking about military confrontation. I'm saying their needs to be revolution at the polls...before your vote no longer counts at all...It already doesn't in Presidential Elections...How long do you think it will be before it has no weight anywhere?
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DarkeMaster, I've read, read again, and read a third time what you posted, trying to find something to argue. I can't. I find myself in agreement with you on all the points. Until the American people decide to fight back, things can only get worse. They, and the politicians in Washington, ignore or have forgotten that those selfsame politicians were put there by us to work for us. They are our leaders, but we are the masters. I can't count how many times, watching C-Span, I've heard one or the other of them say that he/she is voting for something despite the fact that "my constituents" are opposed to it.
I think Hitler or Goebbels once said that if you tell a lie enough times, the people will eventually believe it. Clearly it's true in America today, and in America for the past couple of decades. I'm beginning to think that maybe the militia groups, so popular a decade ago, were right after all.
