MMm, is my mind lost?...
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MMm, is my mind lost?...
Palemoon........well put......
Integrity...loyalty.....and the willingness to make a better world for us all.
lol i feel like watching the "final thought" in Jerry Springer.. lol
but yeah.. well said.. as Sir Isaac Newton once said.. "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.." for some it may be just a game but the reprecusions of such games can cause a lot of harm..
This was also possible in the early 90's (pre World Wide Web). Once the web became popular, it became full of garbage. It is harder to find decent information now that it was 10 years ago on the internet.Quote:
Today this day I can seek and find info on anything. When in your life did your parent's, school, State, or Goverment become the enemy?
Well, thats definatley true (gotta love taking things out of context).Quote:
Windows are fragile can be broken
So does that mean that you don't have a problem breaking into a computer as long as no damage is caused? If I gain root access on a government computer, I am learning a lot by doing it. If I hit my neighbor on the head and take his wallet, I don't learn anything (except maybe his driverslicense number and credit card numbers).Quote:
The desire to learn is good, as to understand, but tell me get away from the computer going to hit you neighbor over the head steal all they have?
That depends on what you do with the box. Is gaining knowledge a bad thing? If you don't destroy anything or make money off of it, are you truly doing something that is harmful?Quote:
Point is you see a box to use and do what makes this different then saying rolling an old man or womanfor a wallet or purse? For your own gain
I wish I lived where you do. I don't get attacked everyday, but it does happen on occassion.Quote:
I walk streets everyday am not attacked
Try that at a bar, and someone may just take advantage of it....Quote:
Humm a flaw is like a open zipper after going out of the Can
Well, I wasn't born until 75, but I do know most of the history of computers. I just never lived a lot of it....Quote:
where I have through the 50's 60's 70's 80's 90's learn this history
No, computers = tools. If I take an old 386 and smash it with a sledge hammer, I haven't harmed anyone. The computer with cancer research should have bakeup tapes. The machine that prints checks just prints checks. The accounting info normally doesn't even sit on the same box.Quote:
Computers = people
When I went to school, we were warned to keep copies of everything in your personal directorys. The school system was completely backed up. Any student that lost all thier information was just as responsible for that loss.Quote:
Research Data Lost Under Grads entire file system deleted as they watched
No tape backups? If they are doing that kind of recearch without backups, then I don't think there results are going to be worth while any way. Power goes out during a file edit, you can loose all the information in that file. If you get a power surge, and it spikes the hard drive just right, you can destroy the reading arms on the drive. Oops, data lost and no hacker resposible. And UPS systems are not 100% reliable.Quote:
Data lost Cancer, AIDS, Downs Syndrone, Fital Acochol Syndrone.
Actually, I have been employeed to do that a couple of times, and I was asked to by my university on a few different occassions.Quote:
Who appointed any of us to scan and then use these systems.
Ok, now to clarify. First, I am not a hacker/cracker/script kiddies/ etc. I have NEVER gained access to a machine that I didn't not have permission to. I am an instigator. You do make some very excellent points. I just had a hard time with a few of them. Unless you hack a machine that is being used in laser surgery, and the machine ends up killing the patient, then hacking is in no way comparable to murder. I do not defend hacking. If I did, I wouldn't be as involved in security as I am now. Sometimes, I just like to be a pain in the a55, and show the opposing viewpoint.
Nope no backups they are researchers the box was just a tool to them. So it becomes their fault then again is this not passing another actions of wrong doing on to the other person. It's just like a woman being raped it was her fault it was the way she dressed, it was his fault for walking in this neighborhood that's why I robbed him no one should dress like that and walk down here. Get the general idea?
As for most dot edu systems yes they do internal scans for servers that are not secure but thing is any dept can buy a server plug it in and well now days that is all it takes and about 30 minutes or less for it to be used. Digital car thief oops my car is missing I left the keys in it in my own drive way, it was my fault it was taken.
Hacking and raping are not comparable. One is an action against a person, the other against a tool. I am not trying to blame them for getting hacked. I am blaming them for being a research organization that doesn't properly use their tools. Its like the lady that spilled hot coffee in her lap from McDonalds. Although the court found McDonlads guilty, was it really their fault? The lady was to stupid to drive while holding a cup of coffee. She didn't properly use the cup. The research company was to stupid to properly use their tools. If the power went out on that machine, it was possible for them to loose information also.
That is why companies (and most .edu's) have security policies in place. No one should be setting up a server that the IT department doesn't know about.Quote:
any dept can buy a server plug it in
Yes computers are tools but people use those tools like any profession, now most computers are networked. Lock picking is a known fact since they have been around, lets see I break into a goverment computer learn lots of stuff but do not change anything. I go into the alley cut pick the lock to the door, notice a trip alarm so I disable this also, go inside the building look through desk drawers everyones stuff, company records. On the way out you enable the alarm and lock the door walking away you learned much this day on how to get into that building. Next day a hidden security camera just picks up your shadow because of low light, but the owner knows you have been there though nothing was lost they spend thousands upgrading their security taking away from everyones anual bonus at Christmas. So your act was at your risk you did not get caught it cost you nothing, but to the place involved you did this two paid for what you see as their mistake? What value is their now to your knowledge, and what wisdom did you really offer and to whom?
Now theres an excellent analogy. Like I said before, I agree, I just like to argue whatever side people are not defending ;) I can't really refute your arguement here, but what the hell, I'll give it a try anyway.... Most "hackers" are not doing anything for knowledge anymore. There are some, but most are just in it for fame. There is a difference.
A lot would depend on the company. Hactivism (hacking for a cause) attacks machines of things they are against. Lets say there is a company in your neighborhood which is known for taking naked pictures of minors, but there is no proof. First of all, you may obtain the proof necessarry (although illegally). Secondly, do you really care that it cost them that much money to fix their security???
Ok, thats just a select group though.
Lets say it is a government building or a .edu building. Yes, school building are easy to get into..haven't tried a government building though. Anyway, the government secures information bassed on value. If you think you have any chance in hell in breaking into Fort Mead (NSA headquarters), then you have to get your head examined. If you break into an army recruiter station though, you may get away with it. But they are not going to spend a lot of money trying to fix it. They are going to set up a new camera watching that door better, and maybe replace the lock. A university is the same way (although not as secure). If you want to get to paper records, its not going to be behind one door. You will have to get in the building, in the right office, and in the right cabinet. A lot more then just getting in the outside door. If they do catch you comming into the building, they MAY put in a camera. It is more likely they will toss a security guard in that building for a week or two, then just forget the incident.
That depends on the business. You may gain proof about illegal activites. Lets say you get into a DVD manufacture. You may learn how they work. The type of knowledge is bassed on the company. Why does an igloo stay standing? If you get into a company that builds igloos, you may find out that it is because of the "key stone". Yeah, big deal, but if you have been infatued with igloos for years, that may mean a lot to you.Quote:
What value is their now to your knowledge, and what wisdom did you really offer and to whom?
Also, lets say that you do get "seen" and the company does spend 1000's of dollars to upgrade their security. Maybe they should have done that at the FBI Building in Oklahoma City. Yeah, "I" didn't do anything when I broke into their building, but the next person along just destroyed the entire place. So is it better for me to get seen, or to just use crappy security and wait for a "terrorist" to take out the place completely?
Ah then ethics are a part of things after all but in the digital world these ethics colide. Now Hacktivism, ah yes we must define our actions by picking something such as child porn, this activity is open game just like the real world engage in such things you have no defense. Fighting the site is not doing anything more then dealing with the end result not the root cause. This is the question then in Ethics are we looking at the root cause or a result of self centered actions done from a keyboard, cause and effect is no matter how one looks at it the real world and peoples lives are effected by this everyday. Example in the 60's I sttod against the war civil rights, the enviroment, consumer rights. If I in real life come across illigal activity I call the police I do not become judge, and enforcer.
It is a matter of belief and culture while we can look at the result of 9/11 and Oklahoma are we looking at the ROOT cause of such actions? Ask yourself are you reacting or responding in the real world or the digital world. Ethics alone respond, reaction is of fustration, anger, and defense. The end cannot justify the means, after all this built the Berlin Wall and I got to see it built and tore down in my life time :) So is this web now in the process and what role do Ethics play in security upon the web?
Ahh, so now the discusson becomes ethics. Well, if we are gonna discuss ethics, this should be in the cosmos thread ;) Anyway, is it better to sit back and watch, or do your part? Yes, calling the police is all well and good, but sometimes they can't get there in time. If you are in a bank when it is robbed, and the sole robber drops his gun by you, do you take it? Or do you wait for the police to show up? "There are 3 types of people in this world. Those that know what happen, those that want to know what happend, and those that make things happen" Which position do you take?
How do you adjust the ROOT cause? Do you change the govement so people don't get mad like Oklahoma? Do you outlaw Christianity so the extreamist muslims don't hate us any more?Quote:
ROOT cause of such actions
Anger leads to fearQuote:
reaction is of fustration, anger, and defense
Fear leads to hate
hate leads to the dark side.
(Sorry couldn't help it)
I'm kind of curious why no one else has gotten involved in this discussion. Other then telling you your first couple of posts were good. What are some other thoughts on this?