Eek!

Yeah as long as they have to prove that you've done real harm endangering lives then that seems to make more sense that they should do something about you. And I agree... the .gov is scared. They seem to want to "nip this problem in the bud"... but they're going about it the wrong way.
<RANT>
Grr... IMO theres too many f$%king laws already.
Seriously why don't they teach you state and federal laws in school...
before you can get thrown in jail for not knowing them!
Minnesota... the land of 10,000 laws (not lakes)
</RANT>

I understand that breaking into a computer alone wouldn't cause anyone any harm (other than economic burdens needed to clean up your mess), but the bill specifies actions that would cause physical or economic harm. There are lots of people that would like to break into a computer with the desire to directly or indirectly endanger people's lives or the economy. Here are some dangerous scenarios that would satisfy that very prospect:

1) Air traffic control systems. Flights that were once in the air are now mysteriously on the ground...in several pieces. Result: lots of innocent civilians killed.

2) NYSE stock systems. "Holy sh1t! AT&T, Qwest, and MCI stocks are all down 3000 points! SELL! SELL!" Result: economic recession/depression.

3) Law Enforcement systems. "I'd like to sell you a list of every American undercover FBI/CIA/DEA/NSA/OCB/NRO/ATF/Secret Service agent in the world and their locations. Result: lots of dead law enforcement agents.

4) Power Plant systems. All the power goes off in Las Vegas because Hoover Dam has gone offline. The Strip is littered with automobile accidents.

I think the bill was written for the people who would consider this sort of thing.

I have several mixed feelings about this subject.
But, to eliminate any confusion, Murder is Murder.
Spying, crakin, hackin, seeping, hitting the motherload
and taking down the stuck up rich is just plain HUMAN.

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Originally posted here by roswell1329
1) Air traffic control systems. Flights that were once in the air are now mysteriously on the ground...in several pieces. Result: lots of innocent civilians killed.

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Has Never happened, even with lots of psychopaths who know lots about computers around

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2) NYSE stock systems. "Holy sh1t! AT&T, Qwest, and MCI stocks are all down 3000 points! SELL! SELL!" Result: economic recession/depression.

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Also has never happened.

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3) Law Enforcement systems. "I'd like to sell you a list of every American undercover FBI/CIA/DEA/NSA/OCB/NRO/ATF/Secret Service agent in the world and their locations. Result: lots of dead law enforcement agents.

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Due to external hacking? Never happened as far as I am aware.

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4) Power Plant systems. All the power goes off in Las Vegas because Hoover Dam has gone offline. The Strip is littered with automobile accidents.

I think the bill was written for the people who would consider this sort of thing.

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Sensing a pattern? I'll give you a hint...it hasn't happened.


Just because something is possible doesn't mean it's probable. While were on the topic, would you like some meteorite insurance?

Exagerating fears does nothing but sell TV programs and newspapers. Remember that.

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Sensing a pattern? I'll give you a hint...it hasn't happened.
Just because something is possible doesn't mean it's probable. While were on the topic, would you like some meteorite insurance?
Exagerating fears does nothing but sell TV programs and newspapers. Remember that.

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Hmm... I seem to remember reading something about a few planes flying into buildings a while ago. That hadn't happened before, until it did. Most people before 9/11 would have told you that the very idea wasn't very probable, either. The point is, the US should now start creating contingency plans for such events. I for one am glad that at least Congress is ahead of the game on this one. However, just because massive cyber attacks are now recognized as a form of terrorism, it doesn't mean that the laws will stop someone willing to trade their life for the attack. However, if we happen to catch them before they get the chance, at least we now have the power to deal with them accordingly.

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The point is, the US should now start creating contingency plans for such events

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Should it? Should there be a mutli-million dollar contigency plan for every little thing that could happen? The government would be spending all their money on 100 million doses of guatamalan whooping cough vaccine. These attacks are not probable at all, and thus putting a lot of money into this will only be a waste. The media exaggerates these possibilities considerably, and it's rediculous to think that everything is preventable.

Not everything is preventable, but there are such things as "reasonable possibilities". In addition, this particular thread is about a non-specific legislative bill that covers a wide range of computer crime that could fit under the term "terrorism". Would it be better if a crime that satisfied the elements of this bill were to go unpunished completely because there was nothing to address a crime of that magnitude? You can't punish someone for an act that doesn't violate a specific statute. I understand your concern for excessive legislation and the appearance of wasted tax dollars, thesecretfire, but I don't believe that any statute currently exists to satisfy large-scale acts of cyber-terrorism.

Here is the portion of HR5710 that deals with life imprisonment for hacking:

"`(B) if the offender knowingly or recklessly causes or attempts to cause death from conduct in violation of subsection (a)(5)(A)(i), a fine under this title or imprisonment for any term of years or for life, or both.'." §225

Life imprisonment is a possibility where death is involved.
I posted this in another thread.

I must side with Secretfire here. This whole subject is hyped. The law is not as bad as it is being made out to be. It has severe restrictions and langauge that opens a number of holes. The whole fear of computer hackers is over hyped because people know so little about it that they can be convinced anything is possible.

As for contingency plans. As long as you add the phrase "reasonable" I would agree. All reasonable contingency plans should be made however using reasonable and congress in the same sentence is rare and it is even rarer that reasonable relates to the congress. My biggest fear though, if the bill becomes a law, is how the courts will interpret it and qualify the extent to which it pertains.

As a staunch conservative I find myself in agreement with the far left in my fear that through our over reaction we are selling out on some very basic liberties. This and the knee jerk reaction whenever some minor report comes in about possible terrorist activity is almost worse than the tragedies terrorism has inflicted on people the world over (to limit our view to 9/11 and to say everything changed on that day is to admit a tragic myopia that if it doesn't happen to America it just doesn't matter).

Actually in no other time in history in the US are personal freedoms under more attack then they are now all under the name of National Security. Me I have and will always have a problem with the "Homeland Security Agency" Name alone says it all if your at home and the govement says you are a security threat you stand no chance. Lets also seperate Hacking from cracking and from the millions of script kiddies, there are millions of them creating such a noise on networks with their caned scanning programs, scripts and sometimes they are a real threat even if they don't understand they are. Take healthcare computer systems many are connected to large Universities and no other leg ouside maybe dot gov or dot mil get scanned and probed so much from script kiddies to the point it becomes diffcult to access real threats to a network, want your healthcare records sold? Should they pay you bet they should. Perhaps if the noise level of millions of lamers that are no more into hacking but are point and click are caught more stupid laws will pass. Until corps delever secure products that they sell to the goverment and they are truly secure they will profit even more and tighten their stangle hold on everyday users. Fact is these laws are wired world version of most of the causes of past world wars, and civil unrest. The US is now doing the same thing as in WWII profiling Middle Eastern families like the did with Japanese Americans, only their are no interment camps this time but "Federal Holding Cells" where even the most basic American rights are denied like facing the accuser and a right to be represented. Is a ver sad and dark day and days ahead for citizens of the US.