Abu Mazin/Puppet or not?

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Originally posted here by FrameWork
I like your level headed responses proactive, you would make a great diplomat (and no that is not sarcasim, it's a compliment).

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Thank you! :)

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Fair enough, but how do you explain the vast antisitism running rampit across the Arab nations? This is not an isolated occurrence, it's wide spread, particularly in the Arab states.

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It's not only antisemetism, the hate is also aimed at America and Europe.In demonstrations the American and the Israeli flag is burnt side by side. And today I read in the paper that some Al-Qaida spokesman urges for suicide attacks in the whole wester world.

But what has triggered these opinions amongst ordinary arab people? I believe that the goverments of the arab countries are to blame.

Here's a little story: Let's pick an arab country where anti-western feelings are high and growing rapidly, like Saudi Arabia. For years misrule has brought people to their knees and they don't have many opportunites. Now they are angry, and the large masses of angry people are concerning the leaders. Of course it's illigal to criticise the goverment - so people aren't allowed to let their steam out. And they are not entitled to choose new leaders. Those who do criticise the goverment are jailed, and people are afraid to speak their mind. The leaders on the other hand are worried they aren't capable of controllling the anger much longer. Things are about to blow up into their faces. The leaders are very concerned.

So, then comes along a religious fundamentalist leader. He has the gift of speech, and he talks about the evil Israelis and Americans. The people listen and suddenly much of the anger is not directed at the goverment anymore. "Aha", says the leaders, "maybe this is our way out?!" So they decide not to do anything with the growing anger - after all it's not directed at them. The goverment, which has never allowed demonstrations before, decides to allow anti-western demonstrations. People are allowed to have opinions! But suddenly the anti-western anger comes out of hand, and terrorists start to blow up stuff in other countries. People now are so angry that they are even willing to commit suicide for the fundamentalist leader. The goverment leaders realise they have no choice to but accept what's happening. They can't control it, and if they try do something about, the anger will once again be directed agains themselves. The End.

Heh, neat story, eh? :) It might have some truth to it - at least this is what I believe is the reason for the anti-western feelings.

Your welcome. :p

And as for your story, it's 100% correct. In Saudia Arabia the problem is the "wahabis" and "wahabism" these guys preach hate 24 hrs a day in the local mosque's. Sooner or later this will backfire on the Saudis as it did just a few days ago with the bombing's in Riyadh. All i can say for them is you reap what you sow. :rolleyes:

Semite, a member of any of a group of peoples of southwestern Asia chiefly represented now by the Jews and Arabs, but in ancient times also by the Babylonians, Assyrians, Aramaceans, Canaanites and the Phoenicians.

How can a Palestinian, a Saudia Arabian, a Syrian be an anti-Semite?

the definition came right from Websters Collegiate Dictionary

Another one from dictionary.com

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1. A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.
2. A Jew.
3. Bible. A descendant of Shem.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

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That's a good question. I've only heard the term "antisemitic" in relation to Jews. Probably someone got it mixed up along the way - and then other people started using the term within this new context. And suddenly the meaning of the word is changed.

Makes me think of the old hacker/cracker flame war. Some people claim that a hacker is the good guy and the cracker is bad - that there is a difference to the words. But to 99.8% of the worlds population "hacker" is a negative term for a person who breaks into other people's computer system. When all these people put this meaning in the term - well, the meaning is changed, and the hacker has gone bad. Probably lots of examples - all languages are evolving.

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Originally posted here by proactive
Thank you! :)

But what has triggered these opinions amongst ordinary arab people? I believe that the goverments of the arab countries are to blame.

Here's a little story: Let's pick an arab country where anti-western feelings are high and growing rapidly, like Saudi Arabia. For years misrule has brought people to their knees and they don't have many opportunites. Now they are angry, and the large masses of angry people are concerning the leaders. Of course it's illigal to criticise the goverment - so people aren't allowed to let their steam out. And they are not entitled to choose new leaders. Those who do criticise the goverment are jailed, and people are afraid to speak their mind. The leaders on the other hand are worried they aren't capable of controllling the anger much longer. Things are about to blow up into their faces. The leaders are very concerned.

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Lets look at this point. In a country like Suadi/Kuwait/Fromer Iraq you had a great hatred for Americans and a very oppressive government. In Jordan/Quatar non repressive government no great hatred for Americans. Now you could argue the repressive countries spur on a hatred for the west and that is partially true in some instances but lets look deeper.

What do the countries in group B have in common, They are self governed without western interference.

Group A? They have oppressive regimes that where put into power, and kept in power by the west. I think I can understand the hatred.

As for calling the Jewish state of Israel an invader that must be defeted/distroyed. I don't see how that is anti-Semitic.

Its kind of funny how the Israelis are trying to pull the racism card on this one seeing that unless you are orthodox Jewish you have no rights in Israel...none...A friend of mine is reformed Jewish and was working over there, he had to fly to the states to get married because Israel doesn’t allow any non-orthodox Jew to marry. He has moved back to the states after his wife got attacked for praying in public. This is the group calling racism, just because people are upset that they stole homes and land?

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Now I know what the usual line is that always comes from Arafat "We condem the killing of women and children." Yet this bastard does nothing to stop any of it. In my opinion Abu Mazin is nothing more than a puppet of Yasser Afrafat. The "homicide" bombers are so predictable, every time peace talks are about to resume, the bombings begin to happen. Now you might say that this is soley the work of the terrorist, I disagree. If Yasser Arafat wanted to stop these attacks, he damn sure could, and when they "symbolically" put these terrorist in jail there is a nice revolving door in the back for them to go through. I say expel Arafat, get someone on the Palestinian side who is willing to pursue these terrorist, and then let the peace talks begin.

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The actual situation seems to be that Mahmoud Abbas, while Prime Minister in name, does not have as much power as he would like. He does appear to be dedicated towards a peaceful resolution of the situation, however he is being held back by Arafat, who still retains influence in the Palestinian administration. What needs to happen for this road map to work is for Arafat to be completely removed and stripped of all power, give it all to Abbas and see if he can do something.

And the attacks against Israel have nothing to do with antisemitism (how did you come to that conclusion?). It's simply that Israel is occupying land which Palestinians believe they have rights to.

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The actual situation seems to be that Mahmoud Abbas, while Prime Minister in name, does not have as much power as he would like. He does appear to be dedicated towards a peaceful resolution of the situation, however he is being held back by Arafat, who still retains influence in the Palestinian administration. What needs to happen for this road map to work is for Arafat to be completely removed and stripped of all power, give it all to Abbas and see if he can do something.

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Well, we finally agree on something. ;)

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And the attacks against Israel have nothing to do with antisemitism (how did you come to that conclusion?). It's simply that Israel is occupying land which Palestinians believe they have rights to.

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How did you come to your conclusion powertoad?

Killing women and children and the rederic that you hear in the "street", come on, this is antisemitism.

Have you ever taken the time to read some of the transcripts of what is being said in the mosque's all over the Middle East? If you would take the time to read a few, i'm sure the antisemitism will be more than apparent. ;)

Here, take a look at this site and follow a few link's, it's more than convincing.

Arab Antisemitism Documentation Project

<edit-added link>

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Originally posted here by FrameWork
[B]

How did you come to your conclusion powertoad?

Killing women and children and the rederic that you hear in the "street", come on, this is antisemitism.

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And killing women and children asleep in there beds in an apartment complex is what casualties of war. It’s hypocritical to call the attackers anti-Semitic and not call the Israeli’s racesist.

Remember there are no civilians in Israel, they arm the populace and send them out to "settle" what little is left of Palestinian land. (lets not forget that every inch of Israel is Palestinian land.)

with the Palestinians you are dealing with the former middle class of the area. They had good jobs, good education ect. Then the Israelis came in and said this house is too nice for you we will take it...here have this tent...oh and your job, well you have no right to make money so you can't have that either...and forget about an education for your kids.

I assume most people here are middle to upper middle class, imagine if someone came into your home at gun point and kicked you out telling you that they where "settling" the area, and if you tried to resist the army would kill you. Then you are told that you get to go live in that tent city with no running water or electricity for the rest of your life ... oh and you can't have your job but can work as a slave laborer. If some one tired this on me I would shoot them and be called a hero, the Palestinians shoot them and are called terrorists.

For me there is no difrence between a Israli and a Nazi.

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And killing women and children asleep in there beds in an apartment complex is what casualties of war.

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Well, while on a military operation this is classified as "collateral damage", it's not meant to be insensitive but that is the name for it.

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Remember there are no civilians in Israel, they arm the populace and send them out to "settle" what little is left of Palestinian land.

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I have heard some dumb things in my life, but this statement takes the cake. You need to study reality a little more closely.

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For me there is no difrence between a Israli and a Nazi.

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This just shows your ignorance, and unwillingness to open your eyes to the truth of the matter. You sound like a Nazi with this obsurd comment. :fu:

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How did you come to your conclusion powertoad?

Killing women and children and the rederic that you hear in the "street", come on, this is antisemitism.

Have you ever taken the time to read some of the transcripts of what is being said in the mosque's all over the Middle East? If you would take the time to read a few, i'm sure the antisemitism will be more than apparent.

Here, take a look at this site and follow a few link's, it's more than convincing.

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The generally accepted definition of antisemitism is being anti-Jew or anti-Israeli people (even though that's not a proper definition of the term). The simple way that I came to my conclusion is that if any other group of people had been given the land Israel occupies now and kicked the Palestinians out, and treated the Palestinians the way the Israelis do, then the Palestinians would be running suicide bombers against them, regardless of their religion. It just so happens that the people who took their land are Israelis - this doesn't mean that Palestinians are antisemitic. Unlike Hitler, the Palestinians hate the Jews because of all this **** that has happened to them with occupation, settlers, displacement, etc. whereas the Nazis hated Jews simple because they were Jews. The latter is more definitely antisemitism, while the former is because of what the Israelis have done. All the statements on that page you mentioned are because of the occupation of Israel, they would be saying the same disgusting **** about whatever force occupied Israel.

I'm just trying to make a distinction between the Nazis (traditional antisemites), who had no justifiable reason to kill Jewish people, and the Palestinian people.

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Well, while on a military operation this is classified as "collateral damage", it's not meant to be insensitive but that is the name for it.

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Now, if the Palestinians referred to their victims as 'collateral damage' in their fight to take back Israel, people would be pissed off. But when it's sanctioned by a government it's ok.

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I assume most people here are middle to upper middle class, imagine if someone came into your home at gun point and kicked you out telling you that they where "settling" the area, and if you tried to resist the army would kill you. Then you are told that you get to go live in that tent city with no running water or electricity for the rest of your life ... oh and you can't have your job but can work as a slave laborer. If some one tired this on me I would shoot them and be called a hero, the Palestinians shoot them and are called terrorists.

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The sad thing is this is pretty much how it happened, yet most people believe that Israel is in the right. Might be worth putting yourself in a Palestinian's shoes (or lack thereof) for a minute.