The dog ate my WMDs

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Originally posted here by rcgreen


Consider the diabolical logic of it. They have information that we don't have because
they keep secrets from us Since they keep us in the dark, they claim to be
better qualified to make decisions that ultimately affect our security. They can't
reveal these secrets because we can't be trusted with such sensitive information.

Do you get some perverse pleasure from having your government treat you like
a child? "Trust me. I know what's best for you." Those claiming most
loudly to be fighting for "democracy" need to practice it here at home.

BTW, did you know that few members of congress are allowed to read
much of that information. I guess they don't have "security clearance"
Who's in charge here any way?
:cool:

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:mad: First off, I'm sick of listening to everyone's anti-American rants, it's a good discussion and all, but if you really have such a problem w/ our country then leave it. No here is forcing you to stay (as in other countries), and I guarntee that no one will come looking for you if you decide to leave. So here's the famous uneducated saying: "Love it, or leave it!".... back to our topic.

You said it yourself rcgreen, we can't be trusted w/ sensitive information. Who knows what people would do if they found out that Iraq (hypothetical) had a Hydrogen bomb. Just think of our current society, think of what would come about if our government released sensitive information like that. I can picture chaos, millions running the streets, thousands moving down into Mexico, the hicks gearing up for war... ! Even if our government said a simple thing like Iraq launched SCUD's at Kuwait again, it would be chaos, most people in America are complte ingrates and are unaware what goes on outside our country, so hearing information like that would only scare them and lead to go crazy. Think of the aftermath of Sept. 11, how many millions of people went out and bought smoke masks, stocked up on food. Then do you remember Tom Ridge raising the security level a notch... remember the duct tape and plastic wrap... our society went crazy, so the government figures that the people that need to find out will find out and the rest shouldn't.

Secondly, you asked if I got some kind of pleasure from having my government tell me what's best for me. Honestly, yes I do. Our government does an excellent job keeping our country safe in times of danger but furthermore, in times of peace. Where else are you going find an FDA, that checks out the medicines to see if they're safe, that checks our food to see if it's contaminated. Our government does what is best for the people, thus we have elections and we pick who we think is the best person to make those decisions for us. And if you don't like the people running for office, you can run yourself, that's what makes America great. And if you're a lazy ass and don't want to run, you can always state your opinion and not be killed for it.

I'm assuming that you menat that some members of Congress aren't allowed to much of the information... so I'll keep it short. If we've bombed Afghanistan and we've liberated Iraq, then I guess they've seen enough information to back the war up.

- Cheers,
jag291

PS. This becoming a good debate.

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Originally posted here by jaguar291

:mad: First off, I'm sick of listening to everyone's anti-American rants, it's a good discussion and all, but if you really have such a problem w/ our country then leave it. No here is forcing you to stay (as in other countries), and I guarntee that no one will come looking for you if you decide to leave. So here's the famous uneducated saying: "Love it, or leave it!".... back to our topic.
Secondly, you asked if I got some kind of pleasure from having my government tell me what's best for me. Honestly, yes I do. Our government does an excellent job keeping our country safe in times of danger but furthermore, in times of peace. Where else are you going find an FDA, that checks out the medicines to see if they're safe, that checks our food to see if it's contaminated. Our government does what is best for the people, thus we have elections and we pick who we think is the best person to make those decisions for us. And if you don't like the people running for office, you can run yourself, that's what makes America great. And if you're a lazy ass and don't want to run, you can always state your opinion and not be killed for it.
- Cheers,
jag291
PS. This becoming a good debate.

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So basicly you want to live in a facist state where the goveermnet controlls all aspects of your life...well at least I understand why you are a conservative...the rest of us enjoy our freedom too much to watch it be striped away by a group that rigged an election. See unlike you and most Neo-Conserivtive I beleive that the goverment serves the will of the people as such they are accountable to us. The hole idea of secrate and top secrate information disgustes me. Just imagin you where a stock holder in a company that refuedsed to giv you or any of the other share holders finacil info, you would replace the CEO and he would go to jail. As for your last statment, that is normaly true, but now if you state your oppinion bushes cronies drage you off to a "detention" (read concentration) camp.

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You said it yourself rcgreen, we can't be trusted w/ sensitive information. Who knows what people would do if they found out that Iraq (hypothetical) had a Hydrogen bomb. Just think of our current society, think of what would come about if our government released sensitive information like that. I can picture chaos, millions running the streets, thousands moving down into Mexico, the hicks gearing up for war... ! Even if our government said a simple thing like Iraq launched SCUD's at Kuwait again, it would be chaos, most people in America are complte ingrates and are unaware what goes on outside our country, so hearing information like that would only scare them and lead to go crazy. Think of the aftermath of Sept. 11, how many millions of people went out and bought smoke masks, stocked up on food. Then do you remember Tom Ridge raising the security level a notch... remember the duct tape and plastic wrap... our society went crazy, so the government figures that the people that need to find out will find out and the rest shouldn't.

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Umm Unlike you most americans are not mindless sheep that go histarical at the first sign of trouble...look at 9/11 besides a few nutjobs most of us had life back to normal within a week...hell there was no rioteing when we found out Russia had nukes, or when they put them in Cuba, why is Iraq so specail?. As for the duct tape, society didn't go crazy, I sawno one stocking up on duct tape and plastic, it was the media desperate for a story that went crazy. I would love to see the proof of "millinos" of americans buying "smoke masks" dose any one here no any one that did this?

Yeah, i personally don't like the idea of many congressmen and women getting to hear this secret info. I say just let those on the intelligence comittee hear it, both donkey's and elephants (just to get everyone laughing) . Besides, the congressmen and women that are not allowed on the intelligence comittee are notorious for leaking secrets to the press, not to mention those who sit on them.

The bottom line is there will be those on both sides of the isle who will leak certain info if it's in their parties best interest. It's really a shame either way you slice it. Just take Joseph biden for example, he had to step down from a different committe he was on for leaking secret info, and to be fair, look at nixon. I'm a conservative and i'm still having a hard time forgiving him for what he did to the Republican party. So this crap goes both ways. Unfortunately we have to trust these guys, if you don't like one, be sure to vote for another next time, that's just the way we solve things in America.

edit/

obviously nixon's story is a bit different, but im sure conservatives have made their share of intelligence leaks over the years.

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The hole idea of secrate and top secrate information disgustes me.

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Really? I guess the US government should just post how all their great wizbang weapon systems work out on the web for everyone to read...and while we are at it, why don't we tell everyone how to weaponize biological agents, or build a bigger and better nuke, or improve guidance on their missle systems...I am not a big fan of government folk who hide behind the veil of the classified label (as an excuse to not have to fess up to screwups), but there are countless troves of knowledge that are classified for a very good reason and I have no problem whatsoever with them remaining classified until such time that their contents are not a risk to the security of our nation or anybody elses.

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Yeah, i personally don't like the idea of many congressmen and women getting to hear this secret info.

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I completely agree that US congresspersons have in the past been way to quick to leak information to the press that they have learned from classified breifings; however, I would much rather have them continue to be briefed on such topics. Why? Simple, classified information is a necessary evil and your elected representatives are the only ones who can keep that information and the government that holds it from being abusive. They are the check and the balance...

As far as the NY Times goes, it has to be one of the biggest sources of virulent anti-conservative demogogory in the United States, and given that Mr. Bush is one of the most conservative presidents in quite some time, you should consider taking anything they say against a Republican administration with a grain of salt (consider the source), and that is not withstanding their most recent scandal with Jason Blair. I would have to expect by your post that you filter a source like Fox News in the same way that I am saying that perhaps you should filter the NY Times...

Now as far as the WMD discussion goes, Mr. Bush strikes me as a lot of thing, but dishonest is not one of them, in fact I would have to say that one of his major problems with making nice around the world is that he is BLUNT. That is not an attribute I would expect from someone serving a cold lie. I firmly believe that HE believes there are WMD's, and that if it turns out there are not, then I hope the US Congress can get to the bottom of who fed him such convincing information, that he has placed countless US servicemen and servicewomen's lives at risk (and thus far costing ~150 of them their lives).

Even if the US and the UK are proven wrong in their claims of WMD's in Iraq, I don't think anyone can claim that Iraq won't be any better in the long run free of Sadaam's grip. Hell ask his own people, there is a really good reason they were hitting his picture with their shoes (a major insult in the Arab world), mass graves, countless reams of documented torture and executions, and on and on and on...My only hope with the current situation in Iraq is that the US can get its act together and provide decent security until the Iraqis can get their own government up and running along with basic infrastructure, and then have us get the hell out...

/nebulus

Very true, the New York times is a very liberal leaning paper, and i, a constant watcher of Fox News know full well that it is a conservative cable news outlet.

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Hell ask his own people, there is a really good reason they were hitting his picture with their shoes (a major insult in the Arab world), mass graves, countless reams of documented torture and executions, and on and on and on...My only hope with the current situation in Iraq is that the US can get its act together and provide decent security until the Iraqis can get their own government up and running along with basic infrastructure, and then have us get the hell out...

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Yes, thank God that the mass graves arent still being filled. They hated Saddam with a passion, although i do agree we should take care of business and then get the hell out of there.

I saw on the news where families are buying torture tapes on the street just to bring some closure on whether or not their family members are dead.

Saddam=Hitler

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Originally posted by jaguar291
Who are you to say that what the United States did was right or wrong... the people who went to war had their reasons and if they say its for security then its for security.

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The Gestapo said that, too, you know... :/

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Our government does what is best for the people, thus we have elections and we pick who we think is the best person to make those decisions for us.

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Hail to the thief!

Sorry, couldn't resist :(

And you can doubt the NY Times all you want, but House Resolution 260 *is* real, you know... all of the quotes used are *real* quotes, by *real* people... most of them have been proven false already... and the other ones? Time will tell, I guess... But if time proves that they are false, I must conclude that "George W. Bush and his people used the fear and terror that still roils within the American people in the aftermath of September 11 to fob off an unnerving fiction about a faraway nation, and then used that fiction to justify a war that killed thousands and thousands of people"...

And that doesn't say anything about whether this war was just or not... just says something about how it's been 'sold' to the public ;)

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Originally posted here by nebulus200


Really? I guess the US government should just post how all their great wizbang weapon systems work out on the web for everyone to read...and while we are at it, why don't we tell everyone how to weaponize biological agents, or build a bigger and better nuke, or improve guidance on their missle systems...I am not a big fan of government folk who hide behind the veil of the classified label (as an excuse to not have to fess up to screwups), but there are countless troves of knowledge that are classified for a very good reason and I have no problem whatsoever with them remaining classified until such time that their contents are not a risk to the security of our nation or anybody elses.

/nebulus

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Yes all of that should be in the public domain if known by the government (guidance systems probably fall under some IP rights of the corp. who developed them) While they are at it the government needs to tell the public about the Chemical and Biological weapons factories we maintain, the dictators we keep in power (including Hessian until 1990...So yes all of those atrocities we hear about him committing happened with our governments approval), all of the third world nations we are trying to undermine and keep down. A democracy is supposed to be by and for the people, as soon as information is with held from the people we leave the realm of democracy and start down the slope towards a dictatorial fascism.

"Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one. " -Thomas Jefferson.


As for this war being good/justified lets put it to the show on the other foot test. For all of the conservatives out there, if president Clinton went to war with Iraq for the reasons the bush camp has pushed, and then it turned out that he had lied about our WMD’s being in Iraq/the threat to our country what would you say?

I would bet most of you would be hollering for Clintons impeachment for “lying to the country”.

Then you aren't aware that Clinton, on more than one occasion, gave the go ahead for a few submarines to lob some cruise missiles at Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, etc.

No need to seek public approval for that now is there?

And not that I'm a conservative but I'll answer your open question from my point of view.

Nope, if Clinton had the balls to go about this issue the right way there may never have been a 9/11. So, no, I would not have hollered for anything. Hell I didn't back the call for his impeachment for lying to Congress. I mean the guy obviously has a sex problem and I couldn't care less about his intimate relationships most especially with that horse of a wife he has.

my 2 cents.

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I would bet most of you would be hollering for Clintons impeachment for “lying to the country”.

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That is because Clinton has the credibility of a street-corner whino swearing he will never have another drink, and quite frankly he already did lie to the American public rather shamelessly. And while we are on the topic of Mr. Clinton, do I need remind you that it was Mr. Clinton that allowed Osama bin Laden to run free to do whatever he pleased. It was Clinton that turned down offers on more than one occasion from the Sudanese government to hand over his head on a silver platter (and then of course nicely replied with cruise missles)...(After Osama admitted responsiblity for the first World Trade Center attack, the bombings at the Khobar towers, and bombings at another place in Saudi Arabia (sorry I don't remember the exact place)).

As far as your statements on turning over our weapons secrets to the rest of the world, you are hopelessly naive. The only thing that would accomplish is to garuntee the destruction of the United States by giving those hostile to the United States the capability to destroy it (no I am not saying they have no reason to not be hostile). As far as chemical and biological weapons factories in the US, there are none, we banned their use in the 70's. The US may have some stockpiles laying around, but there, to the best of my knowledge, isn't any large scale production of either in the US (there is some small scale production to help with researching ways to counteract the weapons).

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A democracy is supposed to be by and for the people, as soon as information is with held from the people we leave the realm of democracy and start down the slope towards a dictatorial fascism.

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First thing is, the US is not a democracy, it is a representative republic, there is a difference. That difference is that in a democracy every person has a direct role in the affairs of government, in a republic, they elect representatives to conduct the affairs of governmetn for them. If the US slips toward dictatorial facism, it is the fault of its own citizens, not the government. It is the citizens alone who have the responsibility to watch how their representatives govern and to vote them out of office if they do not follow the wishes of the citizenry. If you fail to have citizen viligence, then yes, a dictatorial or facist government is a
distinct possibility.

The declaration of Independence itself says:

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--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

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And if you will re-read what I said, you would see clearly that I fully support a congressional investigation to find out exactly what happened. You will also see that I fully support disclosing as much information as possible to the American public; however, I do not support crossing the line of endangering the peace and security of the entire nation in order to do so, which IMHO, is where the area of military knowledge falls, be it weapon systems, methods, intelligence, whatever, versus say classifying information about the Kennedy assassinations...

/nebulus

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As for this war being good/justified lets put it to the show on the other foot test. For all of the conservatives out there, if president Clinton went to war with Iraq for the reasons the bush camp has pushed, and then it turned out that he had lied about our WMD’s being in Iraq/the threat to our country what would you say?

I would bet most of you would be hollering for Clintons impeachment for “lying to the country”.

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That's where your wrong bballad, i backed every military action clinton ever took, the only points i criticised him on was not a hard enough response. I know scores of conservatives who sing the exact same tune.

I'll just put another out there for everyone to think about, where was all this clamoring when clinton fired the cruise missles at Iraq, where was all the criticism then from the democratic party? Hold up, i'll answer that for you, none, not a peep from that party when ole billy goat went knocking on Saddam's door during that day. So much of what we are seeing is political, as usual.

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. And while we are on the topic of Mr. Clinton, do I need remind you that it was Mr. Clinton that allowed Osama bin Laden to run free to do whatever he pleased. It was Clinton that turned down offers on more than one occasion from the Sudanese government to hand over his head on a silver platter.

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So true nebulus, Mansoor Ijaz a democratic contributer for many years mind you, tried to broker that deal between the Sudan and the Clinton administration.