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While I am glad that we are comeing down on the MP's who did this **** I am rather alarmed that the real cuplrets (the mercs who where in chare of the intarigations) are getting away scot free....it also worries me that a portion of my fellow contry men have the opinion of "so what, the ywould have done the same to our guys" what ever happened to the moral high ground.
OverdueSpy > You are absolutely correct. The point though is that what I said is probably how Iraqi's are feeling, like it or not. Again, Americans were the bigger men by not blaming every Arab for the 9/11 attacks. Unfortunately, I don't think Iraqi's are prepared to make a distinction between "good" and "bad" Americans.
After 9/11, the US government made numerous efforts to point out that this was an "isolated" case, and that not every Arab should be blamed for the attacks.
In this case though, I'm sure there are numerous Iraqi "leaders" who are eager to point out that they've always been right: "See how those American dogs are?!? Didn't I tell you?!?".
It's not fair and I don't like it, but I'm afraid it's the truth...
One point I kind of missed out on in my little diatribe......
The people singled out for the treatment depicted are not just any Amir, Hassan or Faqir, ;) , they are poeple that are of a high probablility of having important information that may save the lives of other people, both soldiers and civilians. They are also highly unlikely to volunteer that information and the probability is that they are going to be bad a$$ed about not giving it up.
The damage done, rightly pointed out by Neg, is not that we are treating the prisoners in this fashion, but that the unprofessional and childish behaviour of some members of the 800th, and possibly others, has resulted in an Arab backlash that will, in a rather short time, cause the interrogation process to be "watered down". That leads to extending the process. Every day the process is extended people will die that may not have had to...... Their blood is ultimately on the hands of those who played "silly buggers" when they should have been working.......
BBallad: The people in charge of the interrogations ordered them to be done in a very specific way. While those carrying out the acts depicted in the pictures may have been doing it exactly as prescribed, (which is the proper and correct way to carry out the process), I'm sure they didn't tell them to screw around and jeopardize the mission while they were about it.
When ever ive used the SA80 it never looks that shinny, it does look in remarkably good nick for a weapon given to an infantry regiment... they always have a number painted on under the plastics at the front.
Theres a difference between torture and "tactical interrogation" and for either of these 2 the man looks to clean.
The other thing thats wrong, esspecially for the amry is that the persons boot laces are done up criss-cross, this is rarely used in britain laces are usually done straight up in the forces, thats why I think this persons a civvy.
Theres no cover over the front of the barrel, in a dusty enviroment this is really bad solidering as dust can get in the barrel and lead to jams and such, any professional solider would ever have the standard issue green cap or a condom over the end to prevent this
I think these are pictures done my someone to make money, probably some profitering civvy who's just been down the local army surplus shop
i2c
Note also...... Urinating on someone, or pouring warm water on them in such a way as to make them believe that they are being urinated on does them no harm whatsoever. Is it humiliating? Does it help disorient? Does it "show what your captors think of you"? Oh Yes... emphatically......
Is putting a gun to someone's head scarey? Yes, but no harm was done..... Except maybe they pooped their panties...... :o
But we aren't harming them by doing either and we aren't exactly just asking for directions to the nearest phone..... The information these people will/may have will save lives.....
It could save lives, yes.. But does this mean we cross the line of interrogation and torture to get that information? That's for you to decide I guess. Some might argue it's a war, but I dunno. Some will also argue that they're probably killing our POW's. Who know's? I agree with both point's of view though. Welcome to War :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally posted here by Tiger Shark
Note also...... Urinating on someone, or pouring warm water on them in such a way as to make them believe that they are being urinated on does them no harm whatsoever. Is it humiliating? Does it help disorient? Does it "show what your captors think of you"? Oh Yes... emphatically......
Is putting a gun to someone's head scarey? Yes, but no harm was done..... Except maybe they pooped their panties...... :o
But we aren't harming them by doing either and we aren't exactly just asking for directions to the nearest phone..... The information these people will/may have will save lives.....
Urinating on someone does not cross the line to torture, nor does spitting on them, making them stand naked and hooded, piled naked on eachother or anything else that does no physical harm.
A well planned interrogation will use many "techniques" to elicit the information needed but they will all stop short of physical abuse because the information is usually useless or tainted. The exception to non physical abuse would be a battlefield interrogation. This would be a very special circumstance and is only used when the information required is of an immediate nature - any delay in getting the information will render it useless since it it time sensitive. There are very few, if any, people in "western" armies that are trained in battlefield interrogation.
The media are throwing the word "torture" around willy-nilly when it doesn't apply. It may offend some people's sensibilities and they may be shocked and feel that they shouldn't be doing this..... But they are usually the ones that wouldn't dream of going into service for their country..... The reality is that these photographs show a very small number of the whole. The rest are being treated IAW the conventions because they are seen to be of no use but are still too dangerous to be let back out. As to the sudden rash of "complaints" from Iraqis previously detained..... Sorry, but they make me laugh..... They see a way to attack - I don't believe half of what they say and from the "allegations" I have seen they fit perfectly well within the techniques I outlined above...... If they were "beaten" it was probably because they weren't cooperating with simple instructions, or worse yet, they were trying to be a menace to their captors who have every right, and a duty, to maintain order.
i2c: we where disscuessing the US pics, not the british ones that are in question.....what gets me is why thisa happend in the first place, seems to me the gards where just getting their jollies by humiliateing the prisioners, isn't it SOP to send the prisinares wit huseful into to jordan where human rights are not very highly regarded?
Well, IMHO thas bullshyt. Thas cold-hearted "interrogation antic's" as you call them. That's cold to say that. But hey, we can agree to disagree :DQuote:
Urinating on someone does not cross the line to torture, nor does spitting on them, making them stand naked and hooded, piled naked on eachother or anything else that does no physical harm.
Spyder: Don't get me wrong..... It's not pleasant at all, but it's not torture...... I both gave and received these tactics..... They are relatively easy to apply and a pain in the "you know" to receive when you are already cold, wet, tired, hungry and have been bagged in isolation for the better part of 24 hours (though it seems like a whole lot more), and have spent the previous 5 days running away from your potential captors.... And this was just an exercise.... training..... We knew their orders were to make absolutely sure they do us no harm 'cos we were "friendlies".... ;)
It really doesn't come close to torture...... It's bloody effective though.... You have no idea of the kinds of thoughts that pass through your mind even when you know it isn't "for real"..... Is that torture...... Not really..... The mind is easier to pry open with these methods than with a couple of electric wires..... Specially when those nice interrogators sit you down for a cosy chat in a warm room and offer you a coffee and a smoke at no charge...... Brings a whole new perspective to the last 24 hours.... Your choice is to sit and chat or be returned to the discomfort.... Most will at least stay for the coffee and the smoke...... first time around.... ;)
Cold... Yeah, your right.... Necessary, IMNSHO, without doubt.
We can disagree.... It isn't a pleasant subject..... I'll still luv ya..... ;)