to be or not to be

hey the_JinX ill take a crack at that.

the pope's dictums are meant for "good" catholics. that is those that follow the teachings of the catholic church and not those that pick and choose which of the teachings they will follow (well i like six out of the ten comandments...). the church say's they will not engage in extra or pre marital sex. considering most places require an aids test before issuing a mariage license, catholics should not be part of the aids epidemic if they are following their faith. the pope does not advocate or condone one being a part time catholic. either you is or you ain't!

Quote:

---

if its ever 'decided' that human life begins in the womb we in this period in time will be written as the worst savages to ever walk this earth

---

Lol, I coulda told ya that. Just think: we consider the most "savage" people in the past those that practiced child sacrifice. We're killing them before they're even born for equally sucky reasons. In our society everybody's like "well it's ok if they aren't born yet b/c they aren't really alive" which I personally believe to be bullsh*t and people in future societies aren't likely to see things the way our society sees them.

Quote:

---

catholic church's stance on Birth control

---

I grew up with a bunch of Catholics tho I'm not one myself...but they take it a step further and say that bitrh control is the same as abortion b/c you're screwing with fate in the same exact way: causing someone to not be born. I find it hard to get behind this one, but I understand how someone could think that.

Quote:

---

How many people did the Missionaries kill

---

Missionaries? Or Crusaders....?

<rant>
and precisely how many of those actions are actually due to conscious thought rather than some form of reflex action is an entirely different matter. This view is not going to be popular but what the hell....
If you do not want, can't afford or cope with a baby then either take steps to ensure you don't have one or have the foetus terminated at the earliest opportunity. Bringing a baby into the world when the parents are ill prepared or equipped is IMO a criminal offence anyway - the parents are not doing the kid any favours and if anything they will place a bigger drain on the surrounding society than the child may eventually be able to contribute to. <sarcasm> Hell I mean its not like the planet is already suffering because there are 6.5 billion people on the planet continually fu*king it over</sarcasm>

Like I say not a popular opinion but unless we actually control our own reproductive rate a bit better we will all be dead through, war, disease or famine in a couple of hundred years - unless, and this is the BIG caveat, we actually get off our arses and pull together as a species to expand onto more planets . I'm telling you now unless we find more room to expand into fairly soon we are totally fuc*ed - don't believe me? try watching the lifecycle of bacterial colonies in a confined space you might gain some insight

</rant>

/joke

Just look at the chinese :D

/joke


Just messin wid ya, no offense intended.

("40 Million in 30 years...GOD ****ING DAMN! Who knows...maybe one of them would have found the cure to aids...or cancer, or whatever...or come up with something that would have made our life easer.")

Yes lets ****ing solve all the problems in the world by bringing more stupid and stinking peaple in the world.

"and precisely how many of those actions are actually due to conscious thought rather than some form of reflex action is an entirely different matter."


the thing is that the whole issue is still in question. in a situation like this shouldn't we give the benifit of the doubt to the unborn child? i mean it would be a hell of a thing if your wrong.

if you've ever know anyone that has been or have been yourself treated chemically for depression or mood disorder you could question yourself wether any of our thoughts or actions are the product of a conscious mind or just the product of chemical reaction. therefor murder shouldn't be against the law until we have scientific proof of a consciousness and not just the rambelings of some long dead philosophers whos thoughts were obviously influenced by religion?

Quote:

---

f you've ever know anyone that has been or have been yourself treated chemically for depression or mood disorder you could question yourself wether any of our thoughts or actions are the product of a conscious mind or just the product of chemical reaction.

---

you bring up an extremly good point there tedob - and if I'm talking strictly from a biological point of view then yes absolutely any and all human thoughts are merely the product of electrochemical reactions.

Quote:

---

therefor murder shouldn't be against the law until we have scientific proof of a consciousness and not just the rambelings of some long dead philosophers whos thoughts were obviously influenced by religion?

---

I'm probably going to regret saying this - but.... in my darker moods I totally agree with you, until we have scientific proof of something that exists outside the electrochemical processes i.e consciousness, a soul etc... then murder should not be illegal. If you look at existence purely from a scientific point of view everything is utterly pointless so you may as well do whatever you damn well feel like. Just to be cheesy I shall quote what Hassan-i Sabbah (head of the assassin cult) is purported to have said (but probably didn't)

'nothing is true, everything is permitted'

However when we truly believe that then it will probably be a sorry day for the earth (it need not be but humans being the destructive selfish fuc*ers they are, it probably will be) - clearly we do have to take a more balanced view of this. Some will say this is where religion steps in to provide some kind of reference framework so that we can take a balanced view of the situation without losing our minds - however thats another can of worms.

Sometimes being wrong is part of being human so I will stick to my original point of view - if I'm wrong then I may well have some explaining to do to 'someone'.

Having said that Tedob you say give the unborn child the benefit of the doubt - I don't wish to sound callous (and I'm sure I do to all those parents out there) but why? Why should I give the benefit of the doubt to the unborn? At some point someone has to make a judgement call - and that judgement is shall they live or shall they die. You (seem) to be advocating let them live, in other words your making the judgement for the individual. I'm making it for the survival of the species. I'm not saying you're view is wrong by the way. So why am I making it for the species rather than the individual? Simply because there are too many individuals on this planet for it to properly sustain us. If there were fewer people on the planet I'd be all for letting the unborn live and prosper as best they could - unfortunately thats not the situation we find ourselves in at the moment.

I know some people find this whole question to be a moral one - I actually don't have morals as such - I am very amoral (note as opposed to being immoral!). Therefore I find that the answer to the moral aspect of this question is very flexible depending on the circumstances surrounding us at the time .

Z

Quote:

---

40 Million in 30 years...GOD ****ING DAMN! Who knows...maybe one of them would have found the cure to aids...or cancer, or whatever...or come up with something that would have made our life easer.

---

Yes lets ****ing solve all the problems in the world by bringing more peaple into it.

Quote:

---

the pope's dictums

---

Lets all conform to a society and fallow the words of mad men like the pope... isnt it enought to have religion itself? How about goverments makeing more and more mad rules that just makes more pissed off and mad nut-bags who shock the everyone when they say **** the world.

The Pope haha... this is a man who once said sometime shortly after 9/11 "If Isreal and Pali. are to ever make peace then Isreal must put down its arms & start re-building and makeing peace" well yeah they should just sit back & watch the fireworks like the rest of the world has done over the year 'eh? The Pope is just a dumb sack of crap, skin, and bones... other than that he is just just another person like everyone else who says something and by that accomplishes nothing yet peaple are look up to that?

Even though same these peaple constantly say that god loves everyone the same yet they bitch about each other then put random old peaple onto a pedistal above themselves as a replacement for thier very own leaders, gods, & (ect). These peaple praise "hail mary" just as much as they do god then many of these anal retentive conformative christian, chatholic, & jewish types talk about how other religions are ****ed up. :D

zonewalker i gotta tell you that i really enjoyed your reply so id like to go a little more into "survival of the species". following that logic and the need for protecting a proven breeder it also follows that if someone reaches an age where they can no longer be productive that person should be disposed of. personally i don’t really look forward to that and im not going to volunteer to stay behind out on the ice

but keeping a breeder from reproducing even if there is no threat to that breeder goes against any survival instinct or if you will ‘law of nature’ lets evolve a bit more and consider that abortion is only practiced as a common place thing in the so called civilized countries ($) while the poorer and therefore less educated and more backward peoples are reproducing in far greater numbers. with globalism staring us in the face is that something we really want? i tend to think it would be healthier for the human gene pool, for the survival of our species, to have a greater input from a successful people. (with roots in poland i'll get out of the pool now)


TheSpecialist whats up with you and the pope man? when he says something hes not saying it to me or to you hes saying it to his followers of which i and apparently you are not. joke him if he cant take a ****. nobody tells anyone to listen to him. he has as much right to voice his opinion on anything to the nonsecular world as bush has to give his opinion to the eu on turkey. nobodys going to listen to either one of them. the reason hes given respect is because he represents a large number of voters...err..umm a large percentage of the populations religious belief.

Quote:

---

Originally posted here by Negative
The US has an average birth rate of 14.13 births / 1,000 population, or 4,140,090 births a year (based on a population of 293M).

40M abortions in 30 years = 1.3M abortions a year...

That means there's a 1 to 5 ratio of abortions vs. births... that IS a lot...

---

Yes, thats just as bad as saddam with his nerve gas killing pregnant kurds intentionally. Abortions are deliberately; intended harm to a particular individual. Did I mention that women make up most of the democratic party?

And that is why I've consider myself an Independent. See democrats in this country are so two faced, first they say they are for human/animal rights more than conservatives yet they always are for the "slaughter of helpless children". It's just two faced! So if you voted democratic I don't really care for your input on the war and "civilian casualties" ect... because you voted for the killing of helpless humans period. Unless you just like being two faced. I'm only directing this at the morals of the democratic party in general.

Any democratic party memeber care to defend their party here ?