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Thoughts over coffee....
If you place a mouse in a maze with food at the end, he is set in a predetermined state by his master. He is preordained to reach the end of the maze for his existence depends on it. He has no choice and he knows of no easy way to reach his predetermined destiny. He wrinkles his nose, squeeks out a mousy "****" and sets off events to his destination (destiny) racing around using "FREE will" to determine his best cause of action to achieve nirvana in a piece of cheese.
Except some mice curse their Master for not putting the piece of cheese right there in front them instead of making them run a maze, or they deny there even is a Master, and presume that the maze just came into being out of some amazing random course of events, and thus there is no cheese at the end. So they sit down, squeak a "hmph" of frustration toward the other "unenlightened" mice running the maze, and never get the cheese, out of nothing but stubborn ignorance and pride.
To take that illustration a little further... ;)
Free Will - the ability to reject bullshit and glean things of value.
Predestination - being forcefed both bullshit and things of value.
I prefer free will thank you, although, had I a time machine I could've given Hitler's mom a condom at just the right moment and saved us a world of headache...
I love thinking about this kind of stuff. Say Hitler never was born. A lot of people might of lived a lot longer but the consequences of them living could be worse (or a hell of a lot better) than what we know as history. Suppose you stopped Hitlers birth and then his mom had quaduplets who were all messed up? You never can tell the consequences of yoru actions in time travel.Quote:
Originally posted here by |3lack|ce
I prefer free will thank you, although, had I a time machine I could've given Hitler's mom a condom at just the right moment and saved us a world of headache...
Edit: The movie "The Butterfly Effect" got me thinking about this. The movies ending sucks, but the movie got you thinking that changing something in the past might not always be good or might not come out the way you think.
Yes what if Germany and Hitler never came to power and Russia was not devestated in War, Stalin could have done worse, or what if he wasn't born at all and his Iron will did not force the collective of Soviets into an alliance?
The Universe is Choatic.
This reminds me of an excellent book I read the past summer. It is avaliable online (here) but I highly suggest you buy it. It talks about this, and alot of other things, it's by the author of Dilbert, I suggest you read it.
As for the question; I'm not sure which I believe... (Not to be offencive, and I'm sorry if I am, but), but if God gives us freewill, then He is not omnipotent, and if he is infact omnipotent, then we don't have free will (read the book, it'll explain it. :-)). Plus who says God exists in the form we believe? Or at all? There have been/are many relegions, and they can't all be right... can they?
Nothing adds up.
microburn
Exactly my point. You just demonstrated the paradox. Hitler had the free will to do what he did, but things worked out the way did for the truly ironic down-the-road benefit. For instance, what technological advances that have saved countless lives would never had been created were it not for the tech boom WWII brought us?Quote:
A lot of people might of lived a lot longer but the consequences of them living could be worse (or a hell of a lot better) than what we know as history. Suppose you stopped Hitlers birth and then his mom had quaduplets who were all messed up?
I really think this is a limited viewpoint. You're talking in terms of control, I'm talking in terms of time. Again, if I traveled to the future, learned what decisions you made, came back, then reacted to those decisions preemptively, am I forcing you through anything? No, I'm working my plan around your choices.Quote:
Free Will - the ability to reject bullshit and glean things of value.
Predestination - being forcefed both bullshit and things of value.
That's your Second Law of Thermodynamics for ya. Gotta love that entropy.Quote:
The Universe is Choatic.
Now, on a not-so-related note....
If Marty traveled back in time a fraction of a second in his Delorean, would he rearend himself?
:D
(Sorry for double-posting, trying to keep responses organized...)
Why not? If he can't give us free will, doesn't that also mean He's not omnipotent?Quote:
but if God gives us freewill, then He is not omnipotent
Does that mean they're all wrong? Why do they all have to be right? Why can't one/some be right and the others wrong? We see this true in countless other arenas of life...Quote:
There have been/are many relegions, and they can't all be right... can they?
I love talking about these things, but getting back to predestination vs free will
and off Hitler , time machines and condoms. A perfect example of this argument and how
it was brought up was back in Europe during the protestant reformation. To long and complicated to get into detail about. But if you are intrested look up info on the protestant
reformation , Martin Luther & John Calvin.
Wait...time machines? We have time machines? Where do I get one?!
:D