freedom undermining itself

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Originally posted here by er0k
I have a brother in law and a sister who are attorneys

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They got Married so they could continue ****ing each other? They **** everybody else why not? Heh. As for "What if you were walking down the street and the Police...."

Already has happened too me, My Best friend, and about 12 other friends of mine.

Having a gun drawn on you because they don't like you.... And people wonder why I hate Authority. It's not a Punk Cliche, it's having **** like that happen too me.

Some friends of mine got pulled over one day by the cops, and as the cop was walking up, my friend reached over and turned off the stereo figuring the cop wasn't in to the band Slayer. Now that was nice of him, but he ****ed himself doing it. The cop said he didn't turn the stereo off, instead he said "You hid something".

They searched the whole thing, and some Cocain that wasn't there before Magically appeared.

My best friend got held with a gun to his head, as a cop made threats too him.

I've been pulled over for absolutely no reason. Wasn't speeding, wasn't driving stupidly, nothing, but I got pulled over and given a ticket. The cop said I was doing 92 Miles an hour... Hi, my name is Allen, and I WOULD HAVE HIT THE PEOPLE IN FRONT OF ME IF I WAS GOING THAT FAST YOU RED NECK BADGED ****.

Where will it stop?

I got caught being a teenager and charged with possesion of a Mohawk and Punk Rock albums in my car.

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I got caught being a teenager and charged with possesion of a Mohawk and Punk Rock albums in my car.

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Look at it this way. What if you were a nine-to-five suit and you got pulled
over by a cop wearing a mohawk?
:cool:

"whitness protection"

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Originally posted here by Tiger Shark
One could also say that when you, as a terrorist, set aside human decency and chose to attack the weak rather than the strong you also set aside your right to human decency and to have your weaknesses attacked rather than your strengths......

I don't see that big of a problem..... Go take a squint at a few beheading videos and then tell me that a little bit of _appropriate_ interrogational techniques might not be worth the results...

As Mr. Putin said, (paraphrased), "we were weak and the weak lose".....

Keep being weak folks..... You will lose..... The way to win is to mirror the enemy not to try to maintain a moral superiority... Why? Simple.... the enemy doesn't abide nor respect your morals....

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You consider respect or morals as weak, while those are the main reason why someone, or a nation can be so strong. Want a few individual examples? Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King.
So, in that context I completly agree with you, "the weak lose". When you don't have the courage to stand up for your opinion in a decent manner then this proves your weakness, it's only cause you can't get what you want the appropriate way that you have to cross certain lines. So the real weak are the terrorists and in the long run they will lose, cause like you said the weak lose...

You can never garantee safety against the terrorism of today by protection, the only way is a positive approach. There are million ways to do serious harm to many people. So why search the conflict with those completly a-moral lunatics?

But yes, you have a point, for instance in the second world war the allies did bomb complete German cities and used nuclear weapons against civil targets in Japan. But the allies did not murder 8 million people only because of their race. It's that small line that makes the difference. It's that small difference that makes you strong. Ask yourself, why were the allies the good guys and the nazi's the bad ones?

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All I can say that if the people who run the USA are that stupid there really is no point in wasting good drinking time and going to vote?................and we might as well belly up because we have surely lost.

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Originaly posted by hypronix:
If there is one thing history teaches us about empires is that they fall from within, because of the increasing greed associated with the people at the top. I see no obvious reason for which the US shall not meet this same fate to some degree. Of course society moves forward so what kind of a fall it is, it's debatable.

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Those two quotes wonderful mix together... you can also look at it in an economical way. A nation that need to constantly prove their superiority and defend themselfs needs to invest in militar power, making less money available for the civil industry, making less to defend, so their actual (economical) power declines. A perfect example is the former USSR, they have nuclear weapons, submarines, ... but they are poor as hell... and they can't even win a war in their own nation.

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It is NOT a pretty war, but are any of them?

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yep, none are

Gore hits the main idea

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Where will it stop?

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But the allies did not murder 8 million people only because of their race.

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Ahh.... I see.... We should only start getting "pissy" when they kill a million or so because of our religion...... Yeah.. that makes sense to me.....

Look at it this way..... Let's say Victor doesn't like me and let's also say I can sidle up to Victor and kick his ass any day I please... I don't, but I know I can and so does Victor. Then I notice that Victor is going to the gym every day. Victor is getting bigger and more powerful. I have two choices of action:

1. I can sidle over to Victor and give him such a kicking that I cripple him for life meaning he can spend all the time he likes in the gym and it won't matter - he'll never be able to threaten me.

2. I can wait till Victor gets big enough to challenge me, and maybe even win, and wait for him to come for me. In this situation we are both going to sustain damage, possibly crippling damage. One of us will win but the cost all around will be greater and I stand to lose simply because Victor doesn't like me and I gave him the chance to become powerful enough to place myself at risk.

It's naive to believe that, however moral you may feel it is, that the second option is a better one. Before you all start telling me that it would all be alright if I just talked to good old Victor and ironed it all out remember that there are two possibilities there too:-

1. He pretends to listen and appear nice while be builds his strength knowing all along that he's coming for me eventually.

2. He tells me to foxx off.

Even if you say there is a 3. how would you ever know that your 3. isn't my 1.? Can you afford to take the risk? Of course not....

As long as the terrorosts do things that we find repugnant it is us who are being weak. We need to be as repugnant as they are.....

This reminds me of an essay I had to do in school. The title we were given was "In war one must let expediency dictate. Discuss." It revolved around Shakespeare's Henry V who ordered the French prisoners killed after the battle of Agincourt, (killing prisoners was frowned upon if for no other reasons than it was unchivilrous and some prisoners were worth money, (ransom)). He ordered them killed because, in their frustration at not being able to beat the smaller British contingent, the French knights sacked the baggage, (the camp followers - women and children), which is equally frowned upon. He dealt with the French at the level they would stoop to and by doing so proved his ability to be strong and do things that possibly shouldn't be done but may be required to in order to win. France surrendered shortly after Agincourt.

I believe we need to let expediency dictate regardless of whether we believe it to be "beneath" us. There are times when the end _does_ justify the means..... it's your children we are protecting in the final analysis.

Tiger Shark, our points are closer to eacht other than it seems.

I agree with you that it's completly logical to go for option 1.

Perhaps you forgot something in your option 1)

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1. I can sidle over to Victor and give him such a kicking that I cripple him for life meaning he can spend all the time he likes in the gym and it won't matter - he'll never be able to threaten me.

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I'm not so sure 'he'll never be able to threaten me' is possible, as said above, the terrorists are such a-moral rational lunatics that it's perhaps not rational to believe that you can get them into the state of not threatening anymore?

the 3. is offcourse to search why in your example Victor does not likes you, if you can figure that out all is solved. In your example, probably, everything is going to be ironed out after a talk andsome goodwill from both sides.

In the bigger case we started with, I see where you are pointing at: two completly incompatible world views. They will always come after the other minded...
Here in Europe we have the same sort of debate in another context, should we allow certain clothing (like the burka) and behavior? I think not.

I think the only way to solve the conflict is an 'internal change' by those that do not like the otherone. It has to come from their side. Those who spread hate need to be taken out.

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It has to come from their side. Those who spread hate need to be taken out.

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Absolutely..... With extreme prejudice..... ;)

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I've been pulled over for absolutely no reason. Wasn't speeding, wasn't driving stupidly, nothing, but I got pulled over and given a ticket. The cop said I was doing 92 Miles an hour... Hi, my name is Allen, and I WOULD HAVE HIT THE PEOPLE IN FRONT OF ME IF I WAS GOING THAT FAST YOU RED NECK BADGED ****.

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What kinda screwed up town do you live in gore? Let me tell you, as one who has lived in a cop family all his life, cops like you are talking about are the laughing stock of the greater majority of truly heroic police officers out there. Those dimwits are mockeries to their own force, and find themselves alienated and disowned by the rest of the police world very quickly. Any "redneck" badge-wearer like you're talking about would be scorned out of the room by a real cop, so at least take that to heart.

Plus I know cops who appreciate punk music...

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3. is offcourse to search why in your example Victor does not likes you, if you can figure that out all is solved. In your example, probably, everything is going to be ironed out after a talk andsome goodwill from both sides.

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Unless the reason is because you're not like Victor, and Victor will only like you if you become just like him. Well, so much for ironing out. Now what?

Politics and war should never reside in the same boat.

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Politics and war should never reside in the same boat.

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Unfortunately our "boat" is called "Earth"........

Yes, true, it's very unrealistic, utopian concept to say the lest...but still should be so, IMO.