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it was first in a sense that it came before linux on the x86 architecture. Who remembers the GUI called GEOS? The same reason gore hates windows versus the command line version of Linux is the reason I hated the MAC. Who needed a GUI? And the reason why Linux has gained ANY ground outside of the geek lab is BECAUSE of it's GUI - not command line and them incorporated in X-windows and then later refined. My opinion. :)
Well, looking around my local community at those who got new computers for Christmas, they all got Windows.
Partly this is MS marketing, in that they supply bulk OEMs at really knock down rates, and the market is familiar with MS products. Stores and OEMs like that because the chances are that users will talk to a friend, who will solve simple problems, thus cutting their helpdesk/support costs.
Another factor is that most of the local purchases I refer to are what one might call "family computers" by which I mean that they were purchased by older and wealthier members of the family unit, with little or no computer knowledge. They just walked into the local store and bought what was within their price range, so they automatically got Windows.
To be honest with you I don't think that most of the people I am referring to were even aware that their was a choice.
Just my thoughts/recent observations.
I few years ago Dell and other big companies sold linux desktops with their normal support contracts. They no longer do that, so in reality perhaps therereally isn't a choice? That is outside, building your own system and taking the next step in geek revolution... deiciding with complete control what goes on your box. My take is that Dell and others couldn't really support the desktops as easy and effectively as windows, at least for the masses. I am not talking servers here, desktops aka workstations etc.
Now guys. I'm glad that there is a discussion going on. I'm also glad to read a well presented arguments.
Hell, even Gore is beign civil :D
There is my experience of using Linux. I'm not sure what did I do wrong in the stuff I've done.
I got a Fedora Core2 Linux. I also got about a 1000 page book on the OS. Around 400 pages are required to be learned by a basic user. I am sure that a business manager wouldn't want to do that instead of doing his job (I was a business manager, I valued my time then so will others).
I got that a couple of month back, as Core 2 was a later releas of that OS. Now they already got Core 4 coming out in a couple of month. And of course they want me to upgrade, Wasn't XP around for a couple of years nows :confused:. I don't mind downloding some patches, but 2 completely new releases? Isn't it a bit to much?
The OS was instaled on a dualboot laptop. Yes all the hardware was suported, exsept for my wireless USB card. It is Netgear card. Netgear doesn't suport Linux. Unfortunately due to circumstances I have only wireless at home. So, I can not conect to the internet. As it was a dual boot I had a greate idea; "Why not use XP to find and download drivers and then mount XP from Linux?"
Greate idea, don't you think so? Ofcourse Fedora didn't have support for Windows filesystems, none of them. I needed to, guess what, download them. And my system can not be conected to the internet :( . What do I do now?
Well, after asking here and in a few other places, pluss doing some reseach of my own, I found the drivers I need.Downloaded them and copied on to a CD.
So far I managed to install a support for FAT32. That's the windows partition where I keep my work. And that's it. I didn't even found a way to mount the partition so that I could work with the files on it. I have to copy them on to my Linux partition, which renders them useless unless I find an acceptable way of transfering them back. I also cannot print them out, as the printers are a network resource and I can not conect to the network. These circumstances make an OS useless for me in an everyday life.
If it is useless, why would one desire to learn it?
For me, it is a desire to become good at what I want to do, which is Information Technologies. Most of my coursemates at Uni, wouldn't bother going through that. As well as 12 hours in lectures, we are expected to do at least 30 hours of private study per week. I know that I often do even more.
Gore, the matter is not in whether people want to do something, the matter is in whether they've got time and resources to do it.
I could keep on giving the examples from other people I know. Most people want and need "Plug and Play" OS. They simply don't have time or resources for 400 pages or internet downloads.
Microsoft manages to provide an easy to start system. Even my Win 98 ran greate as long as I didn't try any unnecessary extras. Unfortunately Linux is far from that.
I hope it won't turn in to a worse - better issue as we go allong.
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Originally posted here by nightcat
I got a Fedora Core2 Linux. I also got about a 1000 page book on the OS. Around 400 pages are required to be learned by a basic user. I am sure that a business manager wouldn't want to do that instead of doing his job (I was a business manager, I valued my time then so will others).
the things you need to learn are no different than what you have to with Windows. I have a HUGE doubt 400 pages were "Basic user".... I could write a basics for Linux book that would be about 50 pages. A basic user only uses certain applications, and never needs to open a command prompt.
And don't say they do either, I've never seen a basic user touch DOS from Windows.
Open Source moves faster than prop. software. Bugs are fixed fast as hell and new features are added up each week. It's the nature of the computer world. 20 years ago you wouldn't know I exited, now you do. so that shouldn't be a valid arguement that it moves to fast.Quote:
I got that a couple of month back, as Core 2 was a later releas of that OS. Now they already got Core 4 coming out in a couple of month. And of course they want me to upgrade, Wasn't XP around for a couple of years nows :confused:. I don't mind downloding some patches, but 2 completely new releases? Isn't it a bit to much?
Ummmmm, Linux has supported Windows file systems for as long as I can remember using it. You worded that in a way Microsoft would with their security reports on Linux. What I think you meant to say was NTFS was a little less supported.Quote:
The OS was instaled on a dualboot laptop. Yes all the hardware was suported, exsept for my wireless USB card. It is Netgear card. Netgear doesn't suport Linux. Unfortunately due to circumstances I have only wireless at home. So, I can not conect to the internet. As it was a dual boot I had a greate idea; "Why not use XP to find and download drivers and then mount XP from Linux?"
Greate idea, don't you think so? Ofcourse Fedora didn't have support for Windows filesystems, none of them. I needed to, guess what, download them. And my system can not be conected to the internet :( . What do I do now?
I have a Laptop with XP and SUSE 8.2 dual booting. Even though it isn't the new 2.6 Kernel, I STILL booted up to see my windows Partition mounted and ready to be used and I had no problems grabbing video I had on there and using it on Linux. Hell I was playing video on that partition BEFORE I had ever moved it onto the Linux partition.
Here is something to do:
Open your Linux partition in Windows. ;)
Really I'm not sure what made you say " Linux had no support for Windows File Systems...None of them"...... Seriously, you have to be joking or lying.
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So far I managed to install a support for FAT32.
Ummmmm can you explain what you mean here?
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I didn't even found a way to mount the partition so that I could work with the files on it. I have to copy them on to my Linux partition, which renders them useless unless I find an acceptable way of transfering them back. I also cannot print them out, as the printers are a network resource and I can not conect to the network. These circumstances make an OS useless for me in an everyday life.
Take that "Big huge manual" And open it. You can't tell me you learned all Windows tricks by yourself and you've never once had to learn to use Windows and Windows ships with manuals too, and You've HAD to have opened something to learn to use it.
Before you desire to learn Linux I think you should try to desire to learn at all.Quote:
If it is useless, why would one desire to learn it?
wow, I need to enroll here. That's easy.Quote:
For me, it is a desire to become good at what I want to do, which is Information Technologies. Most of my coursemates at Uni, wouldn't bother going through that. As well as 12 hours in lectures, we are expected to do at least 30 hours of private study per week. I know that I often do even more.
OK, tell you what, I'll find someone who has used UNIX their whole lives and NEVER used Windows and you sit them down at a Windows box and see how well they do.Quote:
Gore, the matter is not in whether people want to do something, the matter is in whether they've got time and resources to do it.
And then grab a Mac User, one that has never used Windows, and sit them down at a Windows box, and tell them they can do it without learning.
My point with that:
You and Microsoft assume EVERYONE uses Windows and nothing else. I don't use Windows, unless I have to because some software I use at school needs it. There are people who have never used Windows before, and like them, you have never used an OS before, and you aren't giving any credit to the fact that Windows users had to learn to use Windows as well.
I just plugged in my External ZIP drive and it popped open a Windows showing me what was inside it and I could copy things to it and from it. On my Compaq I put a NIC in the machine, rebooted and Linux found BOTH cards right off the bat. No driver installs needed.Quote:
I could keep on giving the examples from other people I know. Most people want and need "Plug and Play" OS. They simply don't have time or resources for 400 pages or internet downloads.
Windows, I would have been rebooting and loading driver disks.
A Drooling half wit could use Linux. My cousin did and he can't use Windows at all.Quote:
Microsoft manages to provide an easy to start system. Even my Win 98 ran greate as long as I didn't try any unnecessary extras. Unfortunately Linux is far from that.
My Mom isn't a computer person, I installed SUSE on the computer that is her machine and it worked fine and she got around just fine, I didn't say a word, I just watched.
That is up to you. after reading how you complain about how "hard it is" I don't think you're up to it. You seem to forget you had to learn how to use XP at one point as well. You just didn't think anything of it because it was windows. Now you have something that isn't Windows, and you say it's hard.Quote:
I hope it won't turn in to a worse - better issue as we go allong.
I've read your posts and from what I see, you're making it harder than it needs to be. RTFM already.
Why doesn't someone start an organization that provides free classes to learn linux? Probably has already been done, but if not I think it's a good idea. I pick up things very well from classes. I'm not very good at reading a book and getting stuff, mainly because I don't like to read and I get distracted.
As for normal users not using the command line, that's probably true in windows, but I think there are a lot of things on linux that are much easier to do on command line, and maybe even can only be done on command line.
And the BSOD with GUI. I don't think many people get those anymore, I haven't in a really long time.
But, someone start those free classes. They can even be a combo of linux and windows. They are both useful, and windows isn't as easy as it may seem :p.
Gore, I am by far trying to stay as fair as I can. I gave here my experience, not the things that were told to me by others. I don't need to lie about anything. And I don't asume any OS.
If FAT32 was installed, it definately wasn't switched on. Didn't make any difference to me, I still couldn't use it :( To use FAT32 i had to install a separate program/driver, you can call it any way you want.
NTFS is not naitively supported by Fedora Core. I'm definite about it. One can get a software to enable this support, but even that is buggy and doesn't work properly.
As to your Video. Did you try editing it? That's what a general user would ask: "If I can not edit my files on that partition, why do I need to use that OS?"
Gore, did your mother attempt to install a wireless support on to Linux? I don't think she would be able to hack kernel and config files to get it to work. Mine sure as hell won't. And if wireless is required, then it's not exactly the beginer topic, is it?
And yes, I never used any books while learning Windows as a user. I needed them as I ventured deeper into OS.
And you still missed the point of what was said in my previous post.
Just for you Gore I'll try puting it in simpler form.
I was trying to say, that by having all the small problems, like installing proper software, having the software readily available. Having tutorials writen in easier to understand language, Linux could gain more users. Most of the people will not get the system which is not going o be doing exctly what they need straight away.
If I want a bike, I won't get a car, even if it's the best car in the world.
If I could use Linux formy everyday work, I could of learned it faster. So far I'm limited to a fewhours here and there. And I only do it,because I want to do, no matter how hard it is. Many people I know won't do it, because they can learn Windows faster and it will do what they need it to do ain a shorter period of time
You don't HAVE to upgrade. I don't upgrade for every release. I just make sure I stay up with patches. Just because its released... doesn't mean you have to upgrade. When 2k3 server was relesaed... did you rush around right then and start replacing your 2k servers? You can't blame the OSS developers with doing their job. Their job is to create a better operating system. They don't have to wait for every 3 years to make releases. They release as they are ready.Quote:
Originally posted here by nightcat
[B]Now guys. I'm glad that there is a discussion going on. I'm also glad to read a well presented arguments.
I got that a couple of month back, as Core 2 was a later releas of that OS. Now they already got Core 4 coming out in a couple of month. And of course they want me to upgrade, Wasn't XP around for a couple of years nows :confused:. I don't mind downloding some patches, but 2 completely new releases? Isn't it a bit to much?
What netgear card were you using? I've gotten my netgear cards to work.Quote:
The OS was instaled on a dualboot laptop. Yes all the hardware was suported, exsept for my wireless USB card. It is Netgear card. Netgear doesn't suport Linux. Unfortunately due to circumstances I have only wireless at home. So, I can not conect to the internet. As it was a dual boot I had a greate idea; "Why not use XP to find and download drivers and then mount XP from Linux?"
You can mount any m$ filesystem in linux. NTFS was and still might be experimental. But I've had no problems when using it.Quote:
Greate idea, don't you think so? Ofcourse Fedora didn't have support for Windows filesystems, none of them. I needed to, guess what, download them. And my system can not be conected to the internet :( . What do I do now?
I don't see how you can blame linux because you don't know how to use it. I managed to mount my filesystems, flash memory, network cards, etc.Quote:
Well, after asking here and in a few other places, pluss doing some reseach of my own, I found the drivers I need.Downloaded them and copied on to a CD.
So far I managed to install a support for FAT32. That's the windows partition where I keep my work. And that's it. I didn't even found a way to mount the partition so that I could work with the files on it. I have to copy them on to my Linux partition, which renders them useless unless I find an acceptable way of transfering them back. I also cannot print them out, as the printers are a network resource and I can not conect to the network. These circumstances make an OS useless for me in an everyday life.
there are how tos out there for just about everything that you'd want to do.
everything else will be on www.google.com/linux
It is useless in your opinion. There are plenty of us who put it to use quite well.Quote:
If it is useless, why would one desire to learn it?
Same here. I'm always working on, reading about or thinking about IT.Quote:
For me, it is a desire to become good at what I want to do, which is Information Technologies. Most of my coursemates at Uni, wouldn't bother going through that. As well as 12 hours in lectures, we are expected to do at least 30 hours of private study per week. I know that I often do even more.
No need for more examples. We see you've had bad experiences with it. I've never had to read 400 pages to get something to work. Most of the time I have to read 2 paragraphs at most. Linux isn't the only OS that has 400 page manuals... I've got plenty of windows books here that are far thicker than my linux books. Heck, I even have a Windows XP registry book that is about 500 pages all in itself!Quote:
I could keep on giving the examples from other people I know. Most people want and need "Plug and Play" OS. They simply don't have time or resources for 400 pages or internet downloads.
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From the looks of it you don't use any of them but Windows.
Fat32 isn't "Installed" .... Type man mountQuote:
If FAT32 was installed, it definately wasn't switched on.
See that? That is what you use to add things on the fly. And even add new HDs.
In your defence, I don't like Fedora either. SUSE is much better. Go and read my tutorial on installing SUSE with XP as dual boot. When you install that way, you boot up and when you select SUSE you have a desktop Icon of your C Drive. No "Installing" needed.
No you did not, you only did because you're mis-informed that it's harder than it really is. Again crack that big huge scary manual open.Quote:
Didn't make any difference to me, I still couldn't use it :( To use FAT32 i had to install a separate program/driver, you can call it any way you want.
If you did a custom install somewhere it should be on the disks, when you install Linux most users get something they don't really want: Choice. As for not working, I think the error is in the chair. I read the manual, I've had no problems.Quote:
NTFS is not naitively supported by Fedora Core. I'm definite about it. One can get a software to enable this support, but even that is buggy and doesn't work properly.
I don't have a need to edit porn so no. And if you're in video editing where your users have a valid need for editing video what the HELL are you using Windows for in the first place?Quote:
As to your Video. Did you try editing it? That's what a general user would ask: "If I can not edit my files on that partition, why do I need to use that OS?"
I don't allow wireless on my LAN.Quote:
Gore, did your mother attempt to install a wireless support on to Linux?
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I don't think she would be able to hack kernel and config files to get it to work.
Ummm, what in the bloody depths of hell are you trying to do? SUSE 9.2 Profesisonal. Support for wireless cards not only comes with it but the prop drivers are downloaded FOR YOU in the online update. who the hell would "Hack" Kernel configs.... OK I'm trying to get what you're saying because that made no sense, no one hacks Kernel configs to make Wireless work.
http://www.RTFMAlready.comQuote:
Mine sure as hell won't.
Uhhhhh sure.Quote:
And if wireless is required, then it's not exactly the beginer topic, is it?
the things you're complaining about in Linux aren't any "Less Deep". You're whining because hardware wouldn't work because you don't know what you're doing.Quote:
And yes, I never used any books while learning Windows as a user. I needed them as I ventured deeper into OS.
I know, I have trouble speaking in ignorance but I'm working on finding a translator.Quote:
And you still missed the point of what was said in my previous post.
If you tried as hard to read the manual for Linux as you are to explain this to me you'd never need to post this in the first place.Quote:
Just for you Gore I'll try puting it in simpler form.
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I was trying to say, that by having all the small problems, like installing proper software, having the software readily available. Having tutorials writen in easier to understand language, Linux could gain more users. Most of the people will not get the system which is not going o be doing exctly what they need straight away.
I told you in my post a while back to read MY tutorials. I know you haven't because they don't get any simpler. Good Lord if you can't understand "Press the left arrow key 3 times" you sure s hell shouldn't have a computer. I need windows to come with more software than it does, but it won't, maybe I'll start bitching about that.
after this thread if you could ride a bike or drive without killing anyone I'd be shocked. All that manual labor shifting gears and moving your legs, that has to be a bitch when a terminal is giving you ****.Quote:
If I want a bike, I won't get a car, even if it's the best car in the world.
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If I could use Linux formy everyday work, I could of learned it faster.
If you spent half as much time reading the manuals for it as you did complaining about it you could as well.
That's super. The more people that think that way, the higher my pay will be for the skill I have. Go ahead and let them stay ignorant, I could use the extra 10Gs a year.Quote:
Many people I know won't do it, because they can learn Windows faster and it will do what they need it to do ain a shorter period of time
Just a few thoughts:
* Writing to an NTFS volume isn't bug free. I'll mount an NTFS fs read only, but that's it!
* Watching DVDs. I don't have a TV, and as we all know SuSE (et al) won't play DVDs by default.
* Video editing. Not everyone just has porn videos, some people want to edit stuff they're recorded with their little camcorder. Now, I don't have a camcorder so I don't know if there are any issues with this, but if there are....
The newest incarnation of any OS generally has enough drivers to keep you happy. Windows does have the problem that you're expected to reboot *far* too often, but we're used to it! Unless you're running a server this won't cripple you.