Illegal Immigration - Help Save the USA!

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I am not suggesting that America should accept illegals...my argument is against the arguments raised that illegals pose an economic drain...which simply is not true...if they did not do these jobs then Americans would have to...and the drain would still be the same as those jobs would be of a low-paying nature anyways...resulting in the same arguments...that low-paying jobs are a drain on the economy...which again is true in every case where the overall cost exceeds the amount paid into.

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If they did not do these jobs, then Americans would do them, and they would get paid for it decently. Those jobs aren't low-paying by nature... those jobs are low-paying because of illegals.

"those jobs are low-paying because of illegals." And, may I add, because our government has no balls and won't implement fines (across the board as SOP) for hiring illegals.

Hi Negative,

I think the person at Burger King would disagree. I fail to see how these farm opportunities would become better paying jobs...and you are speaking to someone who has worked on two farms...my first two jobs were on farms...a pig farm and a horse farm....and neither paid well! ;)

Hi mathgirl32,

Like I said...my argument is an economic one not a social or political one...illegal immigrants can certainly raise other issues but you haven't convinced me on an economic level. to convince me of that you would have to prove that the loss factor outweighs the economic benefits that are derived from them in production value.

Eg ;)

The federal government has been forced to subsidize hospitals because of the high cost of treating illegal aliens.

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The largest allocations this fiscal year are going to California, which will receive $70.8 million; Texas, $46 million; Arizona, $45 million; New York, $12.3 million; Illinois, $10.3 million; Florida, $8.7 million; and New Mexico, $5.1 million.

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http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/health...tml?source=rss

keep in mind these are just the government subsidies and do not reflect the entire cost.

There’s also the cost of educating their children. Yes I know their not very prolific but if they paid their fair share of taxes it would feel a little more fair to me.

But all of this is really irrelevant. The real issue to me is that our borders should be a little more secure then they are. If uneducated and unorganized people can just make a mad dash across our borders by the thousands what about the well financed and dedicated terrorists who plan for months to do this?

Now you're messing with logic again, Egaladeist. I say that wages went down because of illegal immigration, you say that I said that they would go up without illegal immigration - that's not quite the same.

If an employer follows the law, he'll pay his employees at least the minimum wage. Low-paying? Definitely - but still minimum (legal!) wage.
If an employer doesn't follow the law, he can pay his employees whatever he wants. Those illegals work for less than the minimum wage, and that's the entire problem.

Company A follows the law and pays its (legal!) employees the minimum wage.
Company B hires illegals.

Who do you think is going to stay in business?
Being punished for following the law is what it's all about again...

Hi Tedob 1,

Again that is not an economic issue...it is a social concern...the same appies to all sub-standard employments...
now if you were to argue that these illegal immigrants are taking up the bed space in hospitals that rightfully belong to legal citizens I would agree! Then you would have a legitimate argument on social policy!

Hi Negative,

These are just some people exempted from minimum wages...there are many others not included including some businesses that do not involve themselves in interstate commerce...farm workers are not under minimum wage laws...US Department of Labor can be checked...



* Agricultural employees who are immediate family members of their employer
* Those principally engaged on the range in the production of livestock
* Local hand harvest laborers who:commute daily from their permanent residence, are paid on a piece rate basis in traditionally piece-rated occupations, and were engaged in agriculture less than thirteen weeks during the preceeding calendar year
* Non-local minors, 16 years of age or under, who are hand harvesters, paid on a piece rate basis in traditionally piece-rated occupations, employed on the same farm as their parent, and paid the same piece rate as those over 16.


Eg ;)

Egaladeist > Supply and demand, Economics 101. To make it entirely clear, someone took the time to graph out the shifting of the supply & demand curves :)

http://www.cuzwesaidso.com/archives/000305.html

To:black!c3

I see that most of your argument here is: "we have it already what's
the difference", which is backwards ass thinking if you ask me.

I assume you just extrapolated what might justify your current argument
there? You seem to be offended at any future means of management,
that's all we want, controlled management. Other countries have
controlled borders. :halo:
*sigh* Oh, please, you don't think the US has the wherewithal and
technical knowhow to build an impenetrable structure? We have rovers
on Mars and Voyager is damn near out of our Solar system!
We're the only non-3rd world country that doesn't maintain its borders
like we do.

That quagmire you're calling "Border patrol". If indeed you're
calling the current system "Border Patrol", you are wrong! That's more
like passive look the other way control (political, their commands are
coming from their superiors, who are coming from the
politicians) i.e. the Mexican Vote.

"They send us mass-murderers" Thanks for proving my point! Every
country send us all your bad guys, we're open for the taking, plenty of
little blond haired 8 year olds playing unsupervised. Point
being, we have our own homegrown crime to worry about,
we didn't need an extra serial killer on our soil. Besides, he probably
cost taxpayers more money because he didn't fit the usual white
profile. If you don't get that point, it's useless chatting.

Again, I assume you just extrapolated what justified you current argument there?

About the Hospitals, what's your point? Again, we have our own
homegrown, non-illegal people to tend to. At least you know why they
are drowning! Take Take Take.....Take. You think it would help if they
paid some taxes too, besides just at the local quick-e-mart? (Which is
the point) :halo:

Voting Fraud: How do you know? Please tell me you're not denying this
happens in your state? How do you explain the anomaly of the color of
those southern most counties on your boarder?

Yeah, don't forget the drug dollars making their way out, too. A
connected coyote illegally here ruining peoples lives. Send out
money, buy drugs cheap, smuggle them in, make more money, and repeat
the process. The war on drugs is extremely taxing too, and from a small
portion of those funds they could have built a barrier! (Political)

I don't expect you to correspond with that line of thought, as I'm sure you wouldn't expect me to correspond with yours either?


Yours truly, !mitationRust :halo:

Hmmm,

Interesting, whilst I obviously know nothing about the American scenario, I would comment that the issue of illegal immigrants and "asylum seekers" (economic refugees) is becoming something of an issue in the EU as well. In fact it was quite a point in the recent UK election campaigns.

Basically you cannot let it go on uncontrolled and unlimited forever. No country can, its infrastructure cannot support it. There are only a certain number of persons who can be absorbed over a period of time, and you certainly cannot expect local government to handle large and sudden influxes in very localised areas.

Now, we have a substantial number of legal migrants, both permanent and temporary. A lot of these are skilled or specialist workers (artisans and craftsmen) who are filling the gap caused by the breakdown in our apprenticeship and vocational training system. We don't have the people, there are none in the pipline, and we need the skills NOW!

If you want a stonemason, a cabinet maker, a watchmaker etc..........the chances are that they will not be English. It is not that these jobs are badly paid ($35-70k) it is just that we don't give the training, so we don't have the people.

We also have a fair number working in agriculture, either as permanent or seasonal. They are actually considered to be a positive asset to the economy, and if they suddenly disappeared, there would be a dramatic downturn in some local economies.

I think that my message is that these things need to be managed and regulated. Perhaps one of the ways to do this is to relax the regulations for people who are going to make an obvious positive contribution? If my observations in the UK hold good, the people who are most concerned about illegal immigrants are the legal immigrants.

And BTW if you are a qualified dental surgeon we will pay your passage club class............no need to wade across muddy rivers :D Would you believe that I have to make a 472 mile round trip?

Just my $0.0374

:)

Hi Imitation...nihil,

No argument...! As you are not arguing an economic argument! ;)

Hi Negative,

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Egaladeist > Supply and demand, Economics 101. To make it entirely clear, someone took the time to graph out the shifting of the supply & demand curves

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You must have missed my last post...it is the US government that allows farmers to pay less than minimum wage.

Supply and demand is not an argument against illegal immigrants...it's effects are much wider and are not confined to a particular group...the site is trying to get it's point across by appearing legitimate...this is what I meant about not placing faith on those with an agenda ( not you...the site you listed ).

I do not have a stake in this either way...US immigration policy or minimum wage laws do not affect me...therefore I can look at this from an objective veiwpoint...

do you have social concerns that need to be addressed by the influx of illegal aliens...Yes...is it an economic concern...No...or, at least, I haven't seen any evidence of it.

I do agree, however, that if there were not illegal immigrants those jobs would be taken by Americans...that, again, is a social concern about who gets the job...not an economic argument.

Eg ;)