Should Google be allowed to scan books

Hi rcgreen,

Sounds like a load of rubbish to me...' get a real job '...' deal with it '...' no such thing as intellectual property '...

I'm glad you don't work for the copyright and patent offices...with the attitude it should all be free to all comers...it doesn't matter if you took 3 years to write that novel...and seven years submitting manuscripts to publishers...anyone should be able to download it for free, maybe even sell it, put their name on it...eh?

if that's the case...why write a book...design software...play music...create a better operating system...if people like you can just come along and steal it?

That is what you're saying...right...or am I wrong?

Eg ;)

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anyone should be able to download it for free, maybe even sell it, put their name on it...eh?

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I don't know about what they should or should not do, but this is technology.
You can't control something after you've published it. Just ask a programmer
who wrote some nice software, only to discover that Microsoft stole it, put their
name on it, and tries to prohibit you from using it without paying them!

The best compromise is something like the GPL, that recognizes your authorship
but allows people free access. But even that is only an honor system that
depends mostly on people acting in good faith. There is no technological
solution to something that is a moral and ultimately religious issue.
The honoring of rights, personal and property, is supported by some peoples'
basic philosophical outlook, but it looks as though civilization is deeply divided
on this. People will have to police themselves.
:cool:

Hi rcgreen,

I agree it's near impossible to protect your work if you ever take it out of the safe and put it on display...it was the same way 30 years ago when people were stealing my work...

but...not every societal norm has some religious connection...some things are just common politeness...it would be considered impolite if I were to throw garbage on my neighbor's property...take his car for a spin without his permission...get his daughter pregnant...or steal his blueprints for a new software package...we make rules so that we can get along and function in relative peace and harmony...

we accept that for the life of the copyright or patent that the creator or copy/pat holder can financially benefit from his idea/product...when that time expires it becomes public domain...and then anyone can use it for any purpose...

you're right...there is no solution to prevent people from taking advantage before it becomes legally public property...but that's not a new revelation...it's been going on for hundreds of years...it's just easier now and more accessible to a larger group of individuals.

Still...doesn't make it right.

Eg ;)

rcgreen: there is no technoligical solution this is where laws come in...sure some one can violate your propety rights but then you can sue them...see thats why the laws exiist to make up for he short comeings of technology....its like this in busniess, I can not stop you via tech from writeing inappropiate emails, so there si a busniess rule that says that you can't, this is inforced the old fashion way a pink slip.

Sure google can just copy others work, but they better not whine about it when the lawsuites come down the line.

If what they are copying is allready sitting on a shelf in a "Public Library" then Google should be able to copy it. Just think of all of the original manuscripts that would be electronically available for the masses.

If anything, it may induce mass reading, why does everyone think what Google is doing is sinister.

What the authors should be concerned with is the Middle Men (Publishers), if it is their property then yes they should have a say as to whether or not Google can use their writings, up to the point when it ends up in the Library (public then owns it)

All educational material with the exception of say current curriculums, should also be available for free, I mean geez I would love to go online and google for my old grade 4 mathbook (not).

Will this stop those annoying brittanica salesmen from coming to my door. :D

Hi dalek,

Library books are not public property...some books are donated by people and some are purchased...when you take out a library book you do not have the right to copy it in whole...you could do it, but you do not have the right to do it...they are on loan to you to read not copy and/or sell.

Even the library does not have the right to copy whole books and shelve them for the public...or sell them in their shops.

Your point that

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ends up in the Library (public then owns it)

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is a mistaken falicy.

Eg ;)


OH...by the way...I'm starting a software library...if everyone can send me a copy of all their software I'd appreciate it...and...no...like Google I don't want to pay for it. ;)

dalek: Big diference, the librarey is a public trust that is lending books out for you to read, well within fair use. Note that the library dose not photocopy whole books for you too keep. Google on the other hand is useing other peoples copywritten material for PROFIT. Google is a busniess a for profit busniess and they are trying to profit off of other peoples work... If they want to make this data base they need to pay royalties to the rights owners =, just like any other busniess thatwants to profit off of some one elses work.

Hi Eg

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Library books are not public property...some books are donated by people and some are purchased...when you take out a library book you do not have the right to copy it in whole...you could do it, but you do not have the right to do it...they are on loan to you to read not copy and/or sell.

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I have to agree with you on this, I think I probably should have worded it so that it came out like Google, could be "The Electronic Library" of the future, just as the "public Libraries" are not for profit organisations.The library is a registered charity under the Canadian Income Tax Act:

Then Google could do the same, I am sure that Google would use this opportunity to offer ad space while following links to books people are looking for, (Our Communities and the 3 levels of Government in Canada subsidise our "Public Libraries" through our Taxes) so it does not really matter where the revenue comes from right!!

This is from http://www.collectionscanada.ca/new-user/index-e.html#f

Legal Deposit

Legal Deposit is the means by which a comprehensive national collection is gathered together as a record of the nation's published heritage and development. Canadian publishers are required to send two copies of all the books, pamphlets, serial publications, microforms, spoken word sound recordings, videorecordings, electronic publications issued in physical formats (CD-ROM,
CD-I, computer diskette, etc.), and one copy of musical sound recordings and multi-media kits they publish, to Library and Archives Canada.http://www.collectionscanada.ca/6/25/index-e.html Not sure about other countries.

So once they are there, they become available to the "public"



Copyright

Many publishers enquire about the relationship copyright has to legal deposit. In Canada, copyright is covered by a separate program or statute from that of legal deposit. Depositing with LAC does not represent copyright protection. For information on copyright in Canada, please contact: http://www.collectionscanada.ca/6/25...html#Copyright

So once these are made available to the Library, then the public has access to the material, to either do research or for pleasure.

All of the writers and authors allready have protection if their country has signed on to the Berne Convention http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/Show...what=B&bo_id=7

As to my quote

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ends up in the Library (public then owns it)

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I should have been more specific.

Public domain material
Some of the material you will find on the Library and Archives Canada website is in the public domain and may be reproduced without permission or paying royalties as long as you abide by the reproduction conditions listed above. Public domain material will be clearly indicated as such on our website.(meaning that the copyright term of protection has expired)

There are conditions of course ;)http://www.collectionscanada.ca/notices/016-200-e.html

Audio, video, disco (actually Rock & Roll)
"I hear, I see, I Dance"??? (I Learn)

Dolphin Code 16 (A) ;)

Hi dalek,

Your post confirms my previous statements...

Legal deposit is still bound by copyright law...access to those materials still falls under copyright protection...we do not have the right to copy whole books or manuscripts...and no copyright or patented materials become public domain until after their term has expired.

Good links.

Eg ;)

Copyright protection is basically useless for most artists...for the simple reason you do have to self police your work...that is why agencies were formed and funded by artists to do the policing for them...copyright protection only gives you a date by which you can prove that you made/designed/created it before the other guy...a self-adressed stamped envelope serves the same purpose ( as long as you don't open it until you need to )...the post-mark is your date of proof.

It simply isn't worthwhile to go after every person that steals your stuff...unless you can show substantial damages and the person has an ability to pay.

Which is why there's been a push in the last 20 years toward the creation and enforcement of criminal law regarding copyright infringements.

Authors should stop worrying about unauthorized copying and
worry more about being forgotten. think about how much knowledge has been lost
down through history. At the very least, old and rare books should be scanned
and preserved. Stingy people who do not want their works distributed may get what they want.
A thousand years from now no one will know they even lived.
:cool: