Get the popcorn...

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Actually these two things are really related.

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Oh, I know - that's why I posted it ;)
It's no surprise that those who favor this bill also believe in (intelligent) design ;) It defies all logic, it ignores all science... it's a nice pair.

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f you believe that there is a not a God who has designed the world and us then anything is acceptable.

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That is an extremely close-minded view... I don't even know what's silier: that you believe that only god-fearing people know what is right or wrong, or that you imply that those who don't believe in god have no principles or morals... Thousands of religions cannot agree on that supposed natural law - they can't even agree on the concept of natural law itself...

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It's no big surprise that people who don't believe in God find abortion acceptable for the most part.

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Is that also why people who believe in god find capital punishment acceptable for the most part?

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Is there a God, or isn't there?

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If there was a God, then we wouldn't have rapists??? As to telling a women that it is against God's law to have an abortion is very arrogant to say the least.How can someone impose their will on someone else, this is okay for the Church??

Maybe if the Church joined the 21st century and got off it's as* and assisted 3rd world countries in learning about "Birth Control" then the majority of these women around the globe, would not see a need to abort.

It took untill 2002 for Ireland to have Abortion Rights, the main stumbling block of course was the Catholic Church, how many children have been born, as a result of rape, and what of them now???

For a child to be truly a "blessing" then it should be as a result of two educated individuals who are ready to bring another life into this world, who are emotionaly and financialy capable of handling the responsibilities, far too many young adults (just older teens if anything) are bringing children into this world when they are not ready for such obligations, a result of this is a large increase in shaken baby syndrome, where the young father, because of the incessant crying, of the child loses control and tries to shake the baby to stop, meanwhile the brain at such an early stage is not able to handle the stress.

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The opponents of abortion have every right to do they legally can to oppose it.

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Unfortunately, not all anti-abortionists are peace loving folk, as they can resort to violence to try and stop those who have the legal right to have an abortion.So in fact it's okay for the Pro Lifers to use violence, but it's not okay for Doctors to perform legal abotions....?

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Some girls pour malaria pills down their throats, a dozen at a time. Traditional healers swear by a mixture of herbs and tree bark. Desperate women may sit in the very back of a vehicle as it roars along on a rough country road in hopes of shaking the embryo loose.

But sharp objects are the most common technique. Coat hangers are an old staple. So are bicycle spokes, tree branches and knitting needles. There are a hundred ways to end a pregnancy. Until recently, going to a health clinic was not one of them on this remote island in the middle of Lake Victoria.

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These are what literally thousands of young African women have to look forward to, they don't have HMO's, but I am sure all of the Catholic Missionaries who preached procreate until you can't stop arn't even around anymore?

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I tell them that if their conscience does not allow them to do a termination, I respect that," Dr. Orero said later. "But don't turn the woman away. Don't send her back into the street. At least, link her to someone who can do it safely."

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http://www.piwh.org/articles/newyorktimes021702.html

IMO I believe it's about choice, not wether I believe in God or not, or wether the women who want's to terminate believes in God or not, besides, if she does believe in God, then it's between Him/Her and her, not someone else who has an agenda, and is on a power trip, solely to impose their will on the other, it's all about control as well.

I suppose at some point the people on this planet will mature to the point where everyone is equal, under the eyes of the law, and that we are capable and responsible enough to make our own decisions. (maybe around the 3rd Millenium) :rolleyes:

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hat is an extremely close-minded view... I don't even know what's silier: that you believe that only god-fearing people know what is right or wrong, or that you imply that those who don't believe in god have no principles or morals... Thousands of religions cannot agree on that supposed natural law - they can't even agree on the concept of natural law itself...

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Ok, that's fine. We have morals and principles. Where do you get your morals and principles? Based on what? Our own opinions? If there is no God, who is to say what is right? Maybe the next generation will decide that infanticide is really a good idea. A child really doesn't become a human until she can eat solid food.

But I am interested to know where atheists get morals and principles from without God. How does one decide what is right and wrong? If we're all part of some accident with no Creator, isn't the concept of right and wrong absolutely absurd?

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Is that also why people who believe in god find capital punishment acceptable for the most part?

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I can't speak for all people who believe in God. Not all Christians believe capital punishment is acceptable. God is the One who makes the rules. God has the right to say who lives and dies.

Based on what moral principle does one decide that abortion is acceptable?

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If there was a God, then we wouldn't have rapists???

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As to telling a women that it is against God's law to have an abortion is very arrogant to say the least.How can someone impose their will on someone else, this is okay for the Church??

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Aren't you putting God in a hard spot here? First, you say "If there was a God we wouldn't have rapists." Then you say:

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As to telling a women that it is against God's law to have an abortion is very arrogant to say the least.How can someone impose their will on someone else, this is okay for the Church??

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Then you say that someone can't impose their will on someone else. You charge God with not existing or being unjust by allowing rapists, then you say that God can't impose His will on someone else? Which is it?

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It took untill 2002 for Ireland to have Abortion Rights, the main stumbling block of course was the Catholic Church, how many children have been born, as a result of rape, and what of them now???

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Maybe we should ask the children if they minded what the Catholic Church did. It could be that they appreciate the chance to be born.

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or a child to be truly a "blessing" then it should be as a result of two educated individuals who are ready to bring another life into this world, who are emotionaly and financialy capable of handling the responsibilities, far too many young adults (just older teens if anything) are bringing children into this world when they are not ready for such obligations, a result of this is a large increase in shaken baby syndrome, where the young father, because of the incessant crying, of the child loses control and tries to shake the baby to stop, meanwhile the brain at such an early stage is not able to handle the stress.

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If we were to look at the circumstances of many great individuals lives throughout history, we would find that many of them came from less than ideal circumstances. The best decision is for people not to have sexual relations outside of marriage. That would eliminate many problems right there. Sin brings about a lot of problems.

Hmmm,

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But I am interested to know where atheists get morals and principles from without God. How does one decide what is right and wrong? If we're all part of some accident with no Creator, isn't the concept of right and wrong absolutely absurd?

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That one is easy, atheists, pagans and humanists get there morals from what is acceptable in the society in which they live, because humans are basically social animals. Even simple creatures like crows have such social standards and will kill a member who violates them.

Morality is just one facet of social rules of which we have many. For example I would hardly describe jaywalking, trespass, littering or parking offences as moral issues.

Anyways, whether you believe in God or not, most of us have a conscience, which is our "personal settings" for what we consider to be morally acceptable personal behaviour?

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I can't speak for all people who believe in God. Not all Christians believe capital punishment is acceptable.

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But we might be inclined to refer certain cases to a higher court for sentencing :D

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God is the One who makes the rules.

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God gave us the guidelines and the tool of our conscience, but it is WE who make the rules, because he also gave us free will.

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God has the right to say who lives and dies.

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That implies that God interferes, which in turn implies predestination, which is total disaster for any organised religion; and flies in the face of any meaningful concept of free will.

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Based on what moral principle does one decide that abortion is acceptable?

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Free will, individual conscience and the values of the society in which you live.

:)

Hi Nihil,

You have a good answer for the atheist point of view (not saying you're an atheist, just than you gave the logical outcome of their position). I think I can reply to your post by speaking to this one statement.

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Free will, individual conscience and the values of the society in which you live.

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Are you comfortable with that? Are you sure? Do we want morality to be according to popular opinion? If it is just our opinion (and that's what it comes down to without God (which was my point earlier), then anything goes. Hitler was wrong in 1933-45 but in 2117 he may be right. That seems to me to be the logical conclusion of what you are saying.

So god is to say what is right? And how does he say it? Did he write it down in the bible? Did he tell a human to write it down for him? Did he implant it in the brains of all humans? In the brains of only those who believe in him? In the brains of only those who live in the Bible Belt? How does that work?
Scholars have tried to answer those questions for ages. A society has laws, based on the moral principles of that society. These principles change all the time, and so do the laws. They vary from era to era, they vary from region to region. Where is that natural, universal law? In the bible? Or is it in the Kuran?

Your principles of morals and law date from the 17th century, when Hugo Grotius wrote De Jure Belli ac Pacis:

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The law of nature is a dictate of right reason which points out that an act, according as it is or is not in conformity with rational nature, has in it a quality of moral baseness or moral necessity and that, in consequence, such an act is either forbidden or enjoined by the author of nature, God.

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If you believe that, you must also believe that law should be eternal, universal, and unchangeable - and again, where is that eternal, universal, and unchangeable law? In the bible? I hope not, because there are "laws" in there that even I, the heathen, amoral, immoral, find repulsive. In the middle ages, people did believe that the Bible was the Ultimate Lawmaker - we all know what it led to...

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Originally posted here by Negative
So god is to say what is right? And how does he say it? Did he write it down in the bible? Did he tell a human to write it down for him? Did he implant it in the brains of all humans? In the brains of only those who believe in him? In the brains of only those who live in the Bible Belt? How does that work?
Scholars have tried to answer those questions for ages. A society has laws, based on the moral principles of that society. These principles change all the time, and so do the laws. They vary from era to era, they vary from region to region. Where is that natural, universal law? In the bible? Or is it in the Kuran?

Your principles of morals and law date from the 17th century, when Hugo Grotius wrote De Jure Belli ac Pacis:


If you believe that, you must also believe that law should be eternal, universal, and unchangeable - and again, where is that eternal, universal, and unchangeable law? In the bible? I hope not, because there are "laws" in there that even I, the heathen, amoral, immoral, find repulsive. In the middle ages, people did believe that the Bible was the Ultimate Lawmaker - we all know what it led to...

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It seems to me that the answer for your objections is found in the following passage.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known of God is revealed in them, for God revealed it to them. 20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse. 21 Because, knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, neither gave thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 and traded the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason, God gave them up to vile passions. For their women changed the natural function into that which is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural function of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another, men doing what is inappropriate with men, and receiving in themselves the due penalty of their error. 28 Even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil habits, secret slanderers, 30 backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also approve of those who practice them.

It seems that because of human sin, even when people know the right thing to do, they do the best they can to suppress it. God has given laws throughout human history. Read the Bible and you will see. The problem isn't such much that people don't know right and wrong, it's because they don't want to know what is right and wrong.

Hi preacherman481 ,

I am not an atheist, I do believe in God. I was just taking a slightly more abstract view of the situation that we find ourselves in. A sort of devil's advocate if you like.

I don't know what things are like where you are, but they are certainly not clear cut over here. I see atheists, humanists, and agnostics on the side of the pro-life/anti-abortionists and members of religions taking an opposing view. My point would be that this is not a black and white, "us and them" situation.

For example, quite a few religious people I know would take the view that the life of the mother takes precedence, which is also the way English Law views things. Jehova's Witnesses would not take that view, as they don't even condone blood transfusions.

They "greyer" areas are children with massive deformities, and the product of rape.

From my personal observations and the media, it would seem that "unwanted babies" should not be aborted in the eyes of most religious and a fair number of non-religious. And of those who do support it, a lot would require sterilisation to be part of the process. ;)

As for my remark:

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Free will, individual conscience and the values of the society in which you live.

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That is how I perceive things to currently be; and is consistent with society's approach to other moral issues. My point being that "morality" is both individual and collective, and the two may use quite different rulesets?

:)

Preacherman > Ah yes, I forgot about that Argument of All Arguments... I especially like what a loving and forgiving god he seems to be... It's appropriately titled "God's wrath against mankind", isn't it? ... Romans has been used a lot - and especially the part you quoted - by what I call the modern Inquisition. Let's all be nice to each other - expect to those that aren't as close-minded as we are... history repeats itself, preacherman... if you want to be part of that history, feel free.
Where's the times where you could buy yourself out of hell for $100?