For those that think ssl is secure ...or not

Wasn't a jab at Windows...'tis the truth. I've pulled trojan keyloggers off a number of computers, enough for me to consider a multi-user machine a public PC. I look at infected PC's every day, day in and day out. Guess it's made me jaded. And home PC's, specifically running MS Windows, are the stuff of botnets, so you never know.

I don't know where the Ubuntu comment comes from. Sure, they got sec issues, but at least they don't get infected with spyware. Or easily infected with viruses. But that's veering off-topic here.

I keep a hdd-less computer in the office specically for live cd's. Yes, it's a different ballgame, but it is secure from rogue apps like spyware and keyloggers.

Live CD's are just an option, nothing more. Might not even work on our poster's hardware. Support for modems can get flaky with linux you know.

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Originally posted here by brokencrow
Wasn't a jab at Windows...'tis the truth. I've pulled trojan keyloggers off a number of computers, enough for me to consider a multi-user machine a public PC. I look at infected PC's every day, day in and day out. Guess it's made me jaded. And home PC's, specifically running MS Windows, are the stuff of botnets, so you never know.

I don't know where the Ubuntu comment comes from. Sure, they got sec issues, but at least they don't get infected with spyware. Or easily infected with viruses. But that's veering off-topic here.

I keep a hdd-less computer in the office specically for live cd's. Yes, it's a different ballgame, but it is secure from rogue apps like spyware and keyloggers.

Live CD's are just an option, nothing more. Might not even work on our poster's hardware. Support for modems can get flaky with linux you know.

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It isn't the truth... There are trojans, backdoors, rootkits and keyloggers out there for *nix... You don't hear about them as much because fewer people use them and the people that do use them for the most part know what they're doing.. It comes down to this.

Give an idiot a computer... he'll use Windows
Give an idiot a computer with Linux... he'll use Linux
Give a million idiots computers with Linux... People will start writing and distributing malware, viruses, drive by downloaders, etc..

Most people don't have their Windows problems from day to day computer use... They have them because they aren't intelligent enough to know when to open an email and when not to... When to execute an attachment and when to just delete it. They have them because they want to be cool and pirate movies, music, etc... they download p2p programs that are full of that sort of stuff... You can't blame that on Windows.. or even Microsoft... that's user stupidity... that's user awareness.. The government takes care of vehicle and drivers licenses... not Ford and Chevy... It's the governments responsibility to keep stupid people safe when it comes to driving... Why should computers be any different? It's like 419 scams... How do people still fall for them? but they do... Is that the ISP's fault for providing the email address??? I think not... so how can you blame Windows and Microsoft.

As for you encountering such problems all the time... You must work in tech support.. and you must have a client base of idiots... Of course that's what you'll encounter... Anyone who's not an idiot won't require tech support for things like malware and viruses..

The Ubuntu comment was in regards to *nix in general... I just picked on distro.. Ubuntu can be easily infected with malware or viruses... just as easily as it could for Windows... Virus and Malware Authors choose not to target *nix... and it makes sense... you can hit more Windows users... they are usually the ones with no IT background (*nix is for geeks/nerds in the eyes of the world)... so it goes unnoticed for longer... Wait and see.. if *nix actually gains a decent market share, you'll see malware floating around for it just as often as you do for Windows. As for botnets... That depends on what you're talking about... Because I've seen guys on IRC with large botnets of hacked/cracked *nix machines... You've got to take news reports with a grain of salt.. Windows is a known name... If you published a news article that said FreeBSD has record size botnet, no one would read because they wouldn't know what a FreeBSD is... but if a vuln comes out tomorrow for the version of SSH that ships by default with FreeBSD it's no different than a vuln coming out for MSRPC or anything else..

As for you having a HDD-less machine just for live CDs... that's great.. but it's also not feasible... again you have storage issues and everything else.. It doesn't work for a home user to run it all the time... doesn't work at all.. As for modems... I've yet to have a modem not work in Linux.. people have problems.. but you can get anything to work.. I've used ISA Hardware Based 28.8 modems, Software Based PCI WinModems, Hardware Based PCI 56K modems, external modems.. they all worked without problem.. and lastly your comments on your LiveCD keeping you save... bogus. Let's say you're running knoppix.. you've got SSH enabled.. a new exploit comes out for the version of SSH shipped with knoppix... You're running a LiveCD... it's not exactly easy and convenient for you to upgrade to a patched version of SSH... It's more difficult.. and since it's a while between LiveCD releases you're actually leaving yourself in a more vuln state than you were if you were on Windows... At least if you used safe computing methods.

Just because things aren't publicized don't think they don't exist... that's an awful atttitude to act with.

Peace,
HT

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...you must have a client base of idiots... Of course that's what you'll encounter... Anyone who's not an idiot won't require tech support for things like malware and viruses.

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Talk about attitudes! And how long have you been feeling this way? :p

Seriously, if I had the attitude you had, I'd be out of work. That's one of my big gripes about this industry: a deep-seated comtempt towards users. Everybody takes it for granted users should know more than they do. And I think the industry as a whole takes advantage of that. But that's another thread probably.

As for live cd's, they're great for lighter use. Email, surfing, word processing. Some good open source apps on Knoppix. I used to have problems with the winmodems back in the day when I used dial-up. Good to know drivers aren't an issue in Linux anymore. One of my few gripes about linux: hardware compatibility.

Salaam.

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Originally posted here by brokencrow
Talk about attitudes! And how long have you been feeling this way? :p

Seriously, if I had the attitude you had, I'd be out of work. That's one of my big gripes about this industry: a deep-seated comtempt towards users. Everybody takes it for granted users should know more than they do. And I think the industry as a whole takes advantage of that. But that's another thread probably.

As for live cd's, they're great for lighter use. Email, surfing, word processing. Some good open source apps on Knoppix. I used to have problems with the winmodems back in the day when I used dial-up. Good to know drivers aren't an issue in Linux anymore. One of my few gripes about linux: hardware compatibility.

Salaam.

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That's not an attitude... that's the truth... It's not contempt towards users.. it's acceptance that if it can be broken.. they will break it... Users should know more... but the industry isn't taking advantage of it.. as I said.. the government licenses cars, fishing, hunting, guns, businesses and many other things... they should also license computers and computer operation... or you just have to accept that users are stupid...

Live CDs are great for testing... but it's too slow for things like Word Processing... OpenOffice takes long enough to load.. even longer on a LiveCD... and email... Then you get users who question why their mail is gone the next time they boot up and open KMail or Evolution..

Peace,
HT

Knoppix is fine for web-based email, which I often recommend for home users (and some small business users) given virus problems and spam. Back about three-four years ago, most Windows viruses came in via email attachments, that was more of a problem. With web-based systems like Yahoo, viruses aren't a problem. Spam filtering's the big advantage to web-based mail now. That's not practical for many businesses though.

Thanks for the heads up on *nix machines. I keep an eye out, running rkhunter and chkrootkit every month or two. But without ActiveX, I just don't see the same risk for the *nix family.

C'ya.

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Does this have something to do with d0ppy moving in ? j/k
Sorry man, couldn't resist that.

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:eek:

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Originally posted here by brokencrow
Knoppix is fine for web-based email, which I often recommend for home users (and some small business users) given virus problems and spam. Back about three-four years ago, most Windows viruses came in via email attachments, that was more of a problem. With web-based systems like Yahoo, viruses aren't a problem. Spam filtering's the big advantage to web-based mail now. That's not practical for many businesses though.

Thanks for the heads up on *nix machines. I keep an eye out, running rkhunter and chkrootkit every month or two. But without ActiveX, I just don't see the same risk for the *nix family.

C'ya.

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That's because you're still looking at this from a web browsing point of view... That's fairly minor compared to stuff that spreads through open shares (possible on *nix), vulnerable software with listneing ports (possible on *nix), email attachments (possible on *nix), and p2p programs (possible on *nix)...

As far as Yahoo... My ISP uses them... I still check my mail with outlook.. I had a post on here a while ago... and I've got some stuff on my other machine.. I'll pull it up.. but basically with a very simple user friendly attachment, I could make a link show outside of my email message on yahoo and show in the body of the yahoo page.. or any thing else that uses html...

Peace,
HT

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Originally posted here by theram
i will start with key loggers... I intalled an antikey loggr that encrypts everything from the keyloggers and prevents them from taking snapshots of onscreen activities, it is one of the best. WEll I dont know what rootkits are, and I would like to learn what they are and how to prevent any damge from them. Other steps I have taken to secure the machine are to limit administrator rights to him but the hacker enjoys booting in safe mode these days... Also I have installed my main browser, in a new windows XP encrypted folder that no one but me has access to or let even knows where it is. I don't know if the data can be intercepted in this kind of environment.

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Uhm... ok. An "Anti-Keylogger"? Encrypts everything FROM the keyloggers and prevents them from taking snapshots of onscreen activities?

Before we talk about anything else, you will have to clarify. What is the product name, and version, and how did you acquire it? How do you know it "Encrypts everything from the keyloggers and prevents them from taking snapshots..."? It sounds like you were sold a bill of goods matching what you stated your needs where...regardless of the actual delivery from the "product".

You don't know what a root kit is, I understand. Lacking that level of knowledge, all I can say is you appear to have a level of knowledge and understanding that makes it impossible for you to accurately judge the validity of any "AntiKeyLogger" program. I'm not attacking you or being an ass, just stating truth based on observation.

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What more can I do to secure this environment in light of the fact that it is almost impossible at the moment to secure the social aspect... ...Experts, I wouldn't want to go onabout the social aspect, it is just not possible. If as an expect you find yourself in this kind of situation, how would you help yourself without touching the social aspect

surely there must be a way somehow... "If you can break through, cerainly there is a way to prevent you from breaking through" LOGIC and computers

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Nothing. You can't fix the physical security problem short of taking the computer with you whenever you leave the house, and keeping it under constant personal observation when you are home. BrokenCrow suggest use of a Live CD...which is not a half-bad suggestion. But it depends on what your needs are for the computer.

No, you are wrong. Surely there is no way nohow. You can't prevent it with reasonable means. To perfectly and completely secure a Windows NT server (the old joke goes), you lock it in a room with no power, no network connectivity, an armed guard with orders to shoot anyone who approaches, and while you're at it, fill the computer case with concrete.

It's not a binary, one or the other problem. By your (ahem) "LOGIC", if you can kill someone, you can certainly make them come back from being dead... sorry, doesn't work that way.