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Yeah, our taxes will pay for his upkeep for awhile. However, how long do you really think he'll survive in any American prison? "Accidents" happen all too frequently in our prisons to people who've made only one or a few enemies. Walker's got most of a nation as his enemy...
If this is true, you have a valid argument for judging him harder than other ordinary Taliban soldiers.Quote:
Originally posted by shkuey
This man, however, left his home country purposely to fight against it. He wasn't forced to choose between fighting and a life of poverty, he wanted to kill Americans.
It is my understanding however, that Walker left the United States to learn about the Islam, which is an entirely different goal than killing Americans. If memory serves me, he didn't even leave for Afghanistan either originally - I think he left for either Pakistan or India. Why do you travel to the other side of the world if your goal is to kill the people that live all around you? Training? As he is an American, I doubt he should have been trusted enough by Al-Qaeda to be given an important terrorist-mission.
The recent news on that pos is that he knew about the suicide attacks before hand. The fact that he was an american and didnt warn any of us, justifies me for hanging him. The fact that he was fighting alongside taliban to KILL AMERICAN SOLDIERS means that he was acting as a hostile force against the US Government. He only admitted he was an american after he had been captured to get better treatment. So, he wasnt an american when he was trying to kill american soldiers, but he is when he gets captured? BS. He is a traitor. During times of war, traitors should be executed by either firing squad or hanging. Personnally I think he should be hung, and it should be televised across the US.
Could you point me to where you can find that news? Nothing I´ve read online so far is based on anything but military (CIA) information. (he confessed to alot of things during the nine days of interrogation)
Unfortunatly for all you yahoos out there, you have yet to realize that John Walker and the Taliban were engaged in a war against the anti-taliban factions of afghanistan, not the United States. It is up to the United States justice department to prove that John Walker was being trained by the Al Qaeda and was under Bin Laden ruling. Until then, he was a foot soldier who was captured and was prisoner of the EASTERN ALLIANCE not of the United States. The United States never declared any sort of war against the taliban, by doing so they are not required to abide by the Geneva Convention. This guise of war against terrorism is more like a war against opposers of US foreign policy. In my opinion, John Walker, unless proven to be involved in a conspiracy to harm Americans abroad is as guilty of treason as any other US national that goes off to join a foreign military. There is something called DEMOCRACY. In this political system, the people have the supposed choice to think freely and act freely within the confides of the laws rendered by the representatives of the majority. Last I looked, it is not against the law in the United States to join another military. So kiddies, instead of craving blood, why don't you abide to your own philosophies and allow DUE PROCESS to take place.
omg.. I´m awestruck. Except for the yahoo and kiddie (could´ve left those out) that´s a damn good point oblio
Aye - I didn't think about that either. Good point indeed.
Hmmmmm there are some facts that you may not be aware of..such as walker openingly admitting for-knowledge of suicide soldiers in the U.S. He was told in june by Bin-laden himself. Walker admits being praised by Osama in a private meeting for taking part in the jihad. This makes him an accomplice before the fact in any attack on American soil or interests by the said suicide bombers that he was aware of......LIFE IN PRISON or Death if it is proved he actually killed Americans or our allies.Quote:
Originally posted by oblio
Unfortunatly for all you yahoos out there, you have yet to realize that John Walker and the Taliban were engaged in a war against the anti-taliban factions of afghanistan, not the United States. It is up to the United States justice department to prove that John Walker was being trained by the Al Qaeda and was under Bin Laden ruling. Until then, he was a foot soldier who was captured and was prisoner of the EASTERN ALLIANCE not of the United States. .
The Roman thumbs down.
The military should spread rumours that he "talked" and then send him back where he was cought, the Taliban will have no problem with dealing with him. They have an ability to deal out "justice" very quickly.
This guy is a traitor to me and all Americans. There are not many people that I would consider as being a worse sort than a traitor.
Please note the quotes. As a traitor he waived his rights as an American and rights to the justice system we support.
End of story.. JIFFYPROGASM:D
THE ROAD TO TREASON By Jeff Jacoby
The Boston Globe December 13, 2001
It isn't the case that the parents of John Walker -- the Marin County
child of privilege turned Taliban terrorist -- never drew the line with
their son.
True, they didn't do so when he was 14 and his consuming passion was
collecting hip-hop CDs with especially nasty lyrics.
And true, they didn't put their foot down when he announced at 16 that
he was going to drop out of Tamiscal High School -- the elite
"alternative" school where students determined their own course of study
and only saw a teacher once a week.
And granted, they didn't interfere when he abruptly decided to become a
Muslim after reading *The Autobiography of Malcolm X,*
grew a beard, and took to wearing long white robes and an oversized
skullcap. On the contrary: His father was "proud of John for pursuing
an alternative course" and his mother told friends that it was "good for
a child to find a passion."
Nor did they object when he began spending more and more time at a local
mosque and set about trying to memorize the Koran.
Nor when he asked his parents to pay his way to Yemen so he could learn
to speak "pure" Arabic.
Nor when they learned that his new circle of friends included gunmen who
had been to Chechnya to fight the Russians.
Nor when he headed to Pakistan to join a madrassah in a region known to
be a stronghold of Islamist extremists.
His parents also didn't balk when he went to fight in Afghanistan -- but
that, at least, they didn't know about: Walker hadn't told them.
Perhaps by that point he had learned to take their consent for granted.
Only once, it seems, did Frank Lindh and Marilyn Walker actually deny
their son something he wanted. When he first adopted Islam and took the
name Suleyman, they refused to use it and insisted on calling him John.
After all, he had been named for one of the giants of our time: John
Lennon.
Their refusal must have amazed him. For as long as he could remember,
his oh-so-progressive parents had answered "Yes" to his every whim,
indulged his every fancy, permitted -- even praised -- his every
passion. The only thing they insisted on was that nothing be insisted
on.
Nothing in his life was important enough for them to make an issue of:
not his schooling, not his religion, not his appearance, not even
whether he stayed in America or moved -- while still a minor -- to a
benighted Third World oligarchy halfway around the world. Nothing.
Except, of course, their right to call him by the name of their favorite
Beatle.
Devout practitioners of the self-obsessed nonjudgmentalism for which the
Bay Area is renowned, Lindh and Walker appear never to have rebuked
their son or criticized his choices. In their world, there were no
absolutes, no fixed truths, no mandatory behavior, no thou-shalt-nots.
If they had one conviction, it was that all convictions are worthy --
that nothing is intolerable except intolerance.
But even in Marin County, there are times when children need to hear
"No" and "Don't." They need to know that there are limits they must
respect and expectations they must try to live up to. If they cannot
find those limits and expectations at home, they are apt to look for
them elsewhere. Newsweek calls it "truly perplexing" that Walker, who
"grew up in possibly the most liberal, tolerant place in America. was
drawn to the most illiberal, intolerant sect in Islam." There is
nothing perplexing about it. He craved standards and discipline. Mom
and Dad didn't offer any. The Taliban did.
Even when it was clear that their son was sinking into Islamist
fanaticism, they wouldn't pull back on the reins. When Osama bin
Laden's terrorists bombed the USS Cole and killed 17 American
servicemen, Walker e-mailed his father that the attack had been
justified, since by docking the ship in Yemen, the United States had
committed "an act of war." Lindh now says that the message "raised my
concerns" -- but that didn't stop him from wiring Walker another
$1,200. After all, says Dad, "my days of molding him were over." It
isn't clear that they ever began.
It undoubtedly came as a jolt to his parents when Walker turned up at
the fortress near Mazar-i-Sharif, sporting an AK-47 and calling himself
Abdul Hamid. But the revelation that their son had enlisted in Al Qaeda
and supported the Sept. 11 attacks brought no words of
reproach -- or self-reproach -- to their lips.
Walker deserved "a little kick in the butt" for keeping them in the dark
about his plans, his father said, but otherwise they just wanted to
"give him a big hug." His mother, meanwhile, was quite sure that "if he
got involved with the Taliban he must have been brainwashed.. .When
you're young and impressionable, it's easy to be led by charismatic
people."
Yes, it is, and it's a pity that that didn't occur to her sooner. If
she and Lindh had been less concerned with flaunting their
open-mindedness and more concerned with developing their son's moral
judgment, he wouldn't be where he is today. Walker is responsible for
his own behavior and he will pay the price the law requires. But his
road to treason and jihad didn't begin in Afghanistan. It began in
Marin County, with parents who never said "No."
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/...er_first_match
based on US law, the confession made is not admissible.
Does that really matter. Why try to continue to be devil's advocate.
Or don't you think for yourself?
It's so easy to just be contrary.
And to the person who didn't sign the antipoints given to me ..
Quote
Your post is actually wrong. No offense or anything but did you know that it costs more to put a person to death then it does to keep them alive in prison??? I think this jerk-off would be better served getting it in the butt for 50 years.
No it doesn't. I costs 1.25 for a 10mm bullet. It'll cost the U.S. taxpayers upwards of 50,000+ a year to keep him in jail. Don't misunderstand what I'm saying. He should be lined up in front of a firing squad and shot.
I don't mean to say he should have all the appeals in the world like people who are convicted and sentenced to death. It costs allot more to keep someone alive than to kill them. Please do homework.
hmmmmm once again you show your ignorance of this issue. The circumstances surrounding the confession are in compliance with the rules of admission as evidence. But thats beside the point...they should have fragged his ass when they found him with the hot gun in his hands....the debate would then be over and well as any further expense to this nation.Quote:
Originally posted by oblio
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/...er_first_match
based on US law, the confession made is not admissible.
Excellent post Korp....ditto!
Come on KorpDeath, that article you posted in post #50 has a number off errors in it and is one of the most biased articles I have ever read. If that piece got published in a ordinary newspaper you should stop reading it and start looking overseas for a bit more inteligent writers.
And antihaxor, is an admission to a crime after nine days interigation by military without representation when injured by a gunshot legal? (both in the legal and moral sence?
You're absolutley right Poor-Bear, the Boston Globe is not a ordinary newspaper. Go look up Boston Globe on the internet. Maybe your thinking of 'The Globe", which IS a Piece of shiite.Quote:
Originally posted by Pooh-Bear
Come on KorpDeath, that article you posted in post #50 has a number off errors in it and is one of the most biased articles I have ever read. If that piece got published in a ordinary newspaper you should stop reading it and start looking overseas for a bit more inteligent writers.
And antihaxor, is an admission to a crime after nine days interigation by military without representation when injured by a gunshot legal? (both in the legal and moral sence?
I'll start looking for impartial news coverage overseas, like I give a crap what you bleeding hearts write about.
You also have no idea what you're talking about so just stop. By the way, it wasn't YOUR people he was attempting to kill so no wonder your jumping on the "forgive and forget" bandwagon.
BLEEDING HEARTS OF THE WORLD, UNTIE!!!!!! (yes I meant untie)
It's just too bad I can't give out anymore antipoints today. That seesm kinda strange as I've only given two out today. If JP is following this- Thanks for the limited ability. Real fair. i can hit a 100 times and can only give it back twice. ( by the way, they were positive antipoints I gave.)
I think we should simply strip him of his US citizenship, then treat him as a POW. Simple as that.
He left the US and fought us, so as far as the US should be concerned, he isn't a citizen anymore. He was captured during war, hence he is a prisoner of war. Treat him exactly how we are treating the rest of the Taliban prisoners.
Or the US can continue doing what they are doing, and turn him into a martyr.
Just my 2 cents.
The fact that anyone would consider any newpaper to be unbiased is pure bovine defecation. The media has become one of the biggest Liberal mouthpieces there is. That article was dead on. His mom and dad should have stopped being their son's friends, and started being his parents. People need to lay off this Mr. Spock dont spank your kids BS and start drawing some lines. The fact that he considered the Docking of the Cole an act of war pretty much shows where he stands. I had a good friend of mine DIE when the Cole was attacked. I have no pity for him, he chose his own road, and now must face the consequences of his choices. But lets say all the liberals are right. Lets put him in prison. If he is in anything less than Solitary confinement for the rest of his life, the second a guard turns around, someone is gonna stick a shiv in his ribs and watch him die. Come to think about it, either way is fine with me.
I'd love to give you antipoints for that comment moutainman, but I CAN'T. But don't worry I'll catch you on the flipside with some greens.
I think his parents should be held accountable someway also.
Ok, first of al, let´s make one thing absolutely clear. I´m not looking for any "bleeding heart" or sissy articles. The word of the day is objective.
And you should realy spend those 5$ and have a look at what your agencies/military has been doing
And last. Yup, those were positive points I received. Have you recieved positive points for good posts from me? Yes.
And then you got negative points (which I signed for) for a post which is frankly quite shitty. (the article)
I´m not here to make enemies nor do I want any, what I want is to learn and maybe pass on some of the stuff I´ve learned while I´m at it.
I´m sorry if you don´t see it that way.
Agreed, the parents of misbehaving young adults should be held responsible to some degree, regardless the crime.Quote:
Originally posted by KorpDeath
I think his parents should be held accountable someway also.
This is only a debate.
You are a bleeding heart, and that's fine. But, objectivity is bullsh$%t. And the sooner you grow up and realize that, the better off you'll be. His parents do play a role in his upbringing, and if you don't like what I say go ahead and give me as much crap as you want. I couldn't care less, just be decent enough to THINK about what you post.
This issue hits allot closer to home for Americans than it does for someone who lives in a country that won't even take a side. Militarily neutral., I love it.
So go out and get some life experience come back after you've lost someone you care about and tell me if you feel the same.
You must live one hell of a sheltered life to have these opinions. O hwait yes you do live a sheltered life. Sorry.
lol, you have not a single clue to whom your talking with nor my age.
If it´s time for personal attacks I´m signing off from this "debate". No point in it is there?
The confession was made on day 4...after he was allowed to recuperate for 3 days. The information was RELEASED after 9 days. Please refrain from defending a person who was caught in the ACT. Do you believe he is just a mis-guided youth? KD's post#50 painted the truest possible picture of walker's parents. The guy CRAVED disipline and absolute standards that his liberal upbringing failed to give. Not that I see upbringing as an excuse...my mom ran off with another man when I was 10,my brother 9 and my sister 3! I could use this as a passport to jusify my criminal behavior(if I expressed any). Walker's whole attitude during the attack on the Cole was that America had brought the attack on herself. I believe in justice and fair play....when you are caught "dead bang" however there is little doubt what should happen to this treacherous maggot.Quote:
Originally posted by Pooh-Bear
And antihaxor, is an admission to a crime after nine days interigation by military without representation when injured by a gunshot legal? (both in the legal and moral sence?
I see a lot of posts saying that the taxpayers of this country do not want to foot the bill for J.W. to be in prison. I would just like to tell the people that don't know this that it costs far more money to put a person to death then to keep him in jail for 70 years. Various state governments estimate that a single death penalty case, from the point of arrest to execution, ranges from $1 million to $3 million per case. Other studies have estimated the cost to be as high as $7 million. Cases resulting in life imprisonment average around $500,000 each, including incarceration cost.
Personally if I was Mr. Walker I would have been praying for the death penalty, because I can tell you life in a federal prison is nothing like a country club. And I am almost positive that the inmates that are in whatever prison he might end up at aren't gonna treat this jerk off with anything but violence. Remember what happened to Jefferey Dhamer??
Jeremy
P.S. A wise dude once said "an eye for an eye just makes the whole world go blind". I think it was Ghandi...
In this context I agree with you (KorpDeath)... American ppl are emotional envolved in this issue more than EU ppl.Quote:
objectivity is bullsh$%t
I do not know if I would stick to my ethical point of view if I was personally hit by an attack...
Nevertheless ppl should think about what their say (like you posted)
This is a very complex issue:
With lot's of questions:
1) is JW american or not?
2) is JW a war prisoner or normal prisoner?
3) is JW a traitor or not?
4) what are the legal options of the US? Do they have jurisdiction?
5) what are the costs and the profits on short and long run?
When all those questions are answered the appropriate action, determined by a set of rules, has to be taken...
about the AO points: I do not give negative points to any opinion presented here cause everyone has the right to give his/her opinion (freedom of speech).
My opinion is similar to that of Clavin42
"An eye for an eye makes the world blind"
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Clavin42
[B]I see a lot of posts saying that the taxpayers of this country do not want to foot the bill for J.W. to be in prison. I would just like to tell the people that don't know this that it costs far more money to put a person to death then to keep him in jail for 70 years. Various state governments estimate that a single death penalty case, from the point of arrest to execution, ranges from $1 million to $3 million per case. Other studies have estimated the cost to be as high as $7 million. Cases resulting in life imprisonment average around $500,000 each, including incarceration cost.
Personally if I was Mr. Walker I would have been praying for the death penalty, because I can tell you life in a federal prison is nothing like a country club. And I am almost positive that the inmates that are in whatever prison he might end up at aren't gonna treat this jerk off with anything but violence. Remember what happened to Jefferey Dhamer??[QUOTE][
You need to go back and read my earlier posts. That study was done taking into account all the legal wrangling and appeals and all that crap (attorney costs, etc.)
That's not my point. 1.25 gets a 10mm round and you shoot him dead.
I wish I could live in the rosy lil' fantasyland you people live in. I would love to as ignorant to the real workings of the world, but alas I'm a bit jaded from my own personal experience to fall in with you.
Look, I'm not trying to insult anyone and if you took it that way you're too sensitive.
I'm just spouting my belief and banging heads with some really intelligent people, i don't mind people disagreeing with me. i don't take offense to what you say even if you call me names. Because as I've said before. "Winning an argument online is like winning at the special olympics, I mean, you're still retarded, right?"
P.S. That's not meant as an insult to any retards out there.
1. The death penalty is not inhuman. It may be against some ridiculous religious beliefs, but it's not inhuman. That statement is ridiculous...you don't & never will live in a Utopia.
2. Guus: It's funny how you're telling American citizens about justice on our country. Not to question your intelligence, but how can such comments be made on something you've never lived with? Just a comment...not an attack.
It's all irony, when you really look at it. He's an American citizen, he commited treason on America...but yet, we taxpayers are going to end up housing him for the rest of his life.
There's not really much more I can say about it, because we all know how this is going to end up...he'll be in jail for life. Yeah, it sucks....just another example that our justice system needs some tuning up.
-J
Maybe I misunderstood that last post, but without all the "legal wrangling and appeals and all that crap", wouldn't we just be left with a lynch mob? Where did you get your own personal experiance from? Sounds like you would like a government more like Iraq or even Afghanistan.
Hell why even waste the 1.25 on the bullets, lets just stone em to death!!!
Contrary to popular thought no one person in this room could possibly know why J.W. did what he did. I can tell you one thing though. It isn't normal, and it has to stem from someting that happened in his life. Somewhere somebody went wrong with this person, not that it makes him any less guilty for what he did. It just makes him guilty and misguided.
By the way good point about the special olympics and winning an online argument, that was funny...
Clave
P.S. by the way if anyone wastes time on correcting my gramatical errors in my posts, well I guess you would just be wasting a lot of time because I can't spell to save my life, and I am far to lazy to use the check....
I really enjoyed this thread.
Thanks for everyone's input whether I agree with you or not.
No bad things can come from communicating your thoughts. If everybody did more of what we do here, the world would be a much better place.
I agree. I think it is important to note, that, according to some sources, when he chose to be a militant member, he was given a choice of fighting within Afghanistan OR fighting overseas! In that light, he obviously isn't a Die-die-die-America character.Quote:
Originally posted by jared_c
I think we should simply strip him of his US citizenship, then treat him as a POW. Simple as that.
He left the US and fought us, so as far as the US should be concerned, he isn't a citizen anymore. He was captured during war, hence he is a prisoner of war. Treat him exactly how we are treating the rest of the Taliban prisoners.
Or the US can continue doing what they are doing, and turn him into a martyr.
Also, what if his motivations were pro-Taliban/Extreme Islam, rather than pro-Laden? In that case, he wasn't attacking his country, he was fighting against the other forces within Afghanistan, and he can't be blamed that the US suddenly decided to help out in order to get what they want.
You're way off.....
He admitted being pro-al qaeda which in my mind is pro-laden which in turn is anti-American.
he admitted to being trained by al-qaeda.
He admitted meeting with laden and his henchmen.
He knew what was going on, come on, ignorance is no excuse. Please.
That makes about as much sense as those idiots that actually believe he was brain-washed.
Okay?
I got here too late to make the point jared_c did but I want to elaborate. To be an American you not only need your citizenship, you need a certain belief. A belief that you are an American, that freedom is good, etc. All the Americans know it cause we more or less have this rather dull yet indescribable belief...which is partly why some of us are so arrogant. John Walker doesn't have this belief, therefore he is no longer an American. He joined with the Taliban and became an Afghan. If an Afghan comes here, gets his belief and a citizenship he becomes an American.
So my point is this. John Walker was once an American, he isn't anymore therefore he should not be treated as one. He has to be treated just like any other captured Taliban soldier.
He's technically still an American. His citizenship did not lapse, it can't.Quote:
Originally posted by Alcatraz
I got here too late to make the point jared_c did but I want to elaborate. To be an American you not only need your citizenship, you need a certain belief. A belief that you are an American, that freedom is good, etc. All the Americans know it cause we more or less have this rather dull yet indescribable belief...which is partly why some of us are so arrogant. John Walker doesn't have this belief, therefore he is no longer an American. He joined with the Taliban and became an Afghan. If an Afghan comes here, gets his belief and a citizenship he becomes an American.
So my point is this. John Walker was once an American, he isn't anymore therefore he should not be treated as one. He has to be treated just like any other captured Taliban soldier.
Ideologically you are correct, but in real life you're not.
He wasn't deemed an expatriot, nor did he apply for the status, so in fact he is an American citizen, not that I like the fact but then that's what being a grown-up is all about.
Technically, yes, he's an American. But he doesn't want to be an American. To punish him as we are, we're forcing him to be an American. I don't want to look at this guy as a fellow American, and I don't want him punished as such. Why don't we just strip him of his citizenship and then treat him like the regular Taliban soldier that he is.
Judging by the poll. Even if only 25 responded, the concensus is he should die (one way or another).
Good to know.
You left little choice for another option KD :) As soon as someone against killing him sees three options that describe some way for him to die, they forget about polling, and start to write a post - at least, that's what I did :)
Sonics42ny - I know I'm not American, and I can't speak as one. I was not commenting on American justice, I was commenting on justice in general. I could quote you the Dutch dictionairy-entry for 'justice' but only a handful people in here would understand, but the general idea is the same anyway.
Little choice?
Sending him to prison isn't humane enough for ya?
Maybe we should expand the west wing in the white house and give a room there?
I really don't think there is another "sane" choice, do you?
Or are you so impartial that that offends your sensabilities?
No, what I tried to say was that when I saw that you liked him dead (you can't quite call the poll unbiased) I immidiately wanted to post against that. Actually, I had to re-read the poll to verify that you actually had put in an option to let him live.