One problem: Handicapped people? Are there handicapped virii?
Toddler can move. They crawl. They use their hands and knees. I don't believe computers do that...
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One problem: Handicapped people? Are there handicapped virii?
Toddler can move. They crawl. They use their hands and knees. I don't believe computers do that...
Yes, computers as machines do fit into the non-living category, just like cars, but when you mix that with programs (brains, as it were) and the proper "appendages", they come up to the border again: are they machines or (as tyger_claw put it) a very, very stupid toddler? As for viruses, yes, there are handicapped viruses, ones that have been copied wrong and can no longer function properly, or have been exposed to radiation, or "handicapped" by various other means.
Yes, kezil, your statement of handicapped virii is true, but once the virii are handicapped, what do they do? Nothing? They are "physically" dead. Oh, and virii don't walk of crawl, or even move without the help of another organism... (at least that's what I think...)
like missing parts of the code...
someone wanted to compile it and spread "the love" before checking to ensure it was fully functioning!
Some computers can move on their own, look at that stupid toy dog, whatever it's called...
It's programmed, Just like a toddler is. From birth to death....
So what you're saying Tyger, is that the computer or virii is only able to do what it is told to do. Can it learn though, like the toddler? Theoretically, it can. However, It cannot learn to the extent that the toddler can.
The virii cannot "grow up" to rule nations, the virii cannot "grow up" to invent a something greater, brand new. The Virii CANNOT do ANYTHING by itself.
Tell me, did the virii create itself? How did the virii come to be? Was it created by another organism?
When was the last time a horse grew up to rule a nation, or invent itself a new stable?
I understand that the virii did not create itself, yet you can't tell me a clone will either?
And as for
Well yeah, humans :)Quote:
Was it created by another organism?
Duh!? Haven't you seen "my magic pony"? :)Quote:
When was the last time a horse grew up to rule a nation, or invent itself a new stable?
I cannot say that a clone will, but I can say this. A human(the original) can. A virii(the original) cannot. I can say that not ALL living things in the Animal kingdom can invent things. however, None in the virii kingdom can.Quote:
I understand that the virii did not create itself, yet you can't tell me a clone will either?
sometimes the handicap causes the virus to mutate to another, new virus, to a deficient type, or a dead one (which still has potential elsewhere). As for movement, that is one of the reasons it's on the border between living and non-living, since it is as if it could be a permanently disabled (even in future generations) form of life in that regard.
little tidbit: Human DNA contains large amounts of methylized viral DNA fragments, some even whole I believe. The methylization of the fragments causes them not to be read. If something went wrong though, and they were demethylized, a person's own body could be the reason for their own viral death. The function of these pieces is unknown, though I suspect it is for inate immune recognition of many viruses, just like AV programs contain recognition sequences of computer viruses.
and another: the origin of viruses is unknown. They could have been another form of evolution from the basics (RNA floating around, not yet up to cells), could be the primitive form of all other forms of life, could even have come from life (a little mistake in duplication, just like a simple mistake in programming). They could even possibly have come through normal evolution, with something creating just the wrong sequence, and dying the first viral death because of it.
Sorry...I was talking about the PC Virus.Quote:
the origin of viruses is unknown. They could have been another form of evolution from the basics (RNA floating around, not yet up to cells), could be the primitive form of all other forms of life, could even have come from life (a little mistake in duplication, just like a simple mistake in programming). They could even possibly have come through normal evolution, with something creating just the wrong sequence, and dying the first viral death because of it.
actually, I hadn't even read your post when I typed that (you wrote it after I started writing mine).
btw, I believe nothing in the fungi, plantae, monera, or protista kingdoms have invented anything, either, and yet they are still considered alive.
Since the beginning of this tread, people have said that biological viruses are not living, but a compound of chemicals....
Really?!? Check this site and say that again?
Here
I like how Kezil puts it, how a virii can lose some of it's code and have to function without it (if possible) thus making a type of evolution.
Quote:
could even have come from life (a little mistake in duplication, just like a simple mistake in programming)
Same as a computer virus, some are designated to infect only certain things (ie: .exe, .dll, .doc) or only on certain platforms/os....Quote:
A given virus is designed to infect a given type of cell. There are even viruses that infect bacteria
~from above site
very interesting encyclopedia:
http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/Biology
this link goes to the page on Biology, and near the bottom it mentions something interesting about viruses, viroids, and prions
that's not the least of it:
*you can read it in the conlang (constructed language) Esperanto (as well as a few others) which was meant as an auxiliary language so the different European languages could have a common, easy to learn for all, language. Unfortunately, it was never widely adapted outside of the conlang community, but it still has (I believe) over at least 10,000 users
*It uses the GNU Free Documentation license, and you can submit articles whereever you see a word with a ? link next to it under this license. Here's the page for parasite from the bio page: http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/parasites&action=edit
very interesting, have to remember this site...
I've actually done research on the nature of viruses before, as one of my current projects (out of way to many to keep track of) is to find a way to defeat the AIDS/HIV virus. Ambitious yes, but still a great learning experience. Get along with your teachers, know how to research, and you can learn many things....
duh? That's a lot of info as well...
Until we come to an agreement with either a bio virus is alive or not, we will continue to argue if a pc virii is alive or not
And with this argument...Quote:
From Here
Viruses are somewhere between being living and non-living. They can reproduce and show inheritance, but are reliant on the complex enzymes of their hosts, and in many ways can be treated like ordinary molecules (for instance, they can be crystalized).
If the discussion turns out that everyone accepts that a bio virus is alive, then we have to lead towards the idea that a pc virii is also alive (in a form)Quote:
From Here
A computer virus is a piece of program code that, like a biological virus, makes copies of itself and spreads by attaching itself to a host, often damaging the host in the process
Some say that computers cannot contain life is based on DNA. Just assuming that life would be DNA will bring an interesting topic.
The very core of the IBM Blue Gene project is to find out (trough simulation) how DNA reproduces, a process known as “Protein Folding”. This are expected to be completed before 2010.
When we can simulate the DNA reproduction process we are not far from simulating an entire cell, with every chemical process involved.
Is such a simulated cell alive or not?
i totally agree with cwk9
hmm...if it is determined that a virus (computer or otherwise) IS alive, I wonder how the far out-there environmentalists would react.
I can just imagine a group of them outside congress with signs protesting antivirus software and vaccines...
(though maybe congress should be Norton?)
;)
I could see it now....
Signs saying:
-Melissa.2312 has feelings too
-Killing Viruses, It's like killing Humans!
-Mother Nature loves Virueses
-Removing viruses will effect the eco system
Ok the Definiton of Life is:
* Must move on it's own Accord.
* Must be able to Take in Nutrient's
* Must Grow
* Must be able to Reproduce
I think that's all, correct me if I'm wrrong. Taken in perspective, A Virus is not really Alive, and Neither is a Computer Virus, cos they Don't feed, and they don't reproduce, (Sexualy or Asexualy), they Duplicate, and not through Mitosis, but by using another cell as a Xerox...
- Noia
:D
Where did you get the def for life from?
I think you're getting confused with life and intelligence. No computer has been able to be self-aware yet, what makes us as intelligent as we are. Many living organisms have no intelligence, so don't get it confused. As far as biology is concerned, the computer virus does not classify as "life" as it doesn't exist in such a form. However it is alive as far as the computer is concerned because it is similar to a real virus in these conditions, it duplicates, infects, and can destroy if it duplicates enough or if something sets it off.Quote:
-Melissa.2312 has feelings too
So maybe Virii are alive...
Are worms? How about programs? This makes life a little more complicated...
My own 2 ¢:
I think computers are alive, and we use them just like we used horses, donkeys, and the like. Sure we created and trained them, but does that mean they cannot be alive. If you really think about it, what makes a computer that much different from a plant of some kind? The require power input (AC for computers, sunlights for plants), give a postive output for giving them what they need (computers - data processing, plants - tasty fruit in exchange for spreading seeds). Its not a perfect analogy, but I think there is a good arguement to be made that computers are alive, if not intellegent. I think people are afraid of making that intellectual leap, as it would threaten there place in their conception of the universe....they would either be not special, or Frankenstien-esque creators....
Eer... Pecosian...
When I wrote:
I was joking to what an environmentalist's protest sign could read....Quote:
Melissa 2312 has fellings too
jcmcb... the way your 2 cents sound similar to an earlier post of mine, stating that we created the computer, programmed it and trained it, but we will also do that with clones. Being, create them, program them with certain memories (maybe) and train them like infants....
Was watching The Matrix a few days ago and I found it funny for this tread...
Agent Smith (A computer bot) called humans a virus....
Quote:
Agent Smith: I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species. I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area, and you multiply, and multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet, you are a plague, and we are the cure.
The difference is in the independence. Human viruses can't live independent and just need s.th to feed them. But nowadays PC viruses has a wide range of meaning . Trojan servers are also viruses which unlike human viruses doesn't need to reproduce or need s.th too feed from and all the codes which does s.th malicious will be considered as a PC virus and maybe it will remove itself after from example crashing the target PC but in human the only purpose of viruses are to live more.
What if somebody's pacemaker got a virus?
Con: A virii is not senscient nor is it truly aware of it's own existance. It has a lack of senses.
Pro: We are not a computer virii, so perhaps we lack the lack the physical sense to understand them.
1. Bio viri are a result of a living world therfore alive.
2. Computer viri are a result of human intervention and interaction, a bio viri need not a human to elvolve, a computer viri cannot be without a non living collection of irrlivant parts put together by humans. Bio viri do not need us.
How would you infect a pacemaker with a virus?
The only thing I could think of a way to transmit a virus into a person's pacemaker is by radio frequency or IR (hypothetically speaking, if it had a communications device)
But the thing has no hardrive, ram, bios or so.... what would it infect?
Palemoon, you say that a if the Virus is in a biological environment that it is in fact living right?
So wouldn't the living pc (a few posts back) were to get infected, wouldn't it fall into your statement that it is alive?
Rediculous... PC virii are not single celled organisms...nor do they use living hosts, which virii need. interesting theroy but no. That's like saying PC is alive too, just because it needs energy to run.Quote:
Originally posted here by tyger_claw
I know most people will say no to this topic, but hear me out...
Single cell molecules are living right?
Their only purpose is to eat (small "stuff"), and reproduce.....
Isn't that the same thing a PC Virii does?
It eats away at our sensitive data and reproduces itself onto other data....
Viruses infect people's (and animals) bodies, mutating them....
Well so does pc viriis. They infect a file or proggy and change settings and so...
Viruses are threated with medication...
PC Virii are threated with antiviruses....
Viruses can permanetaly affect someone (ie: chicken pocks)...
PC Viruses can permanetaly damage hardware....
So, would a PC Virii not fall into some sort of Living Categorie?
They have created a "living" pc...
It was first created in 1999 and it was able to do simple math (basically a biological calculator)
The first computer 20+ years ago was HUGE and all it did was simple math, now our computers fit inside our palms and are a zillion times stronger and more efficent.
With the way computers have evolved, would you not believe that that biological calculator will become the next "Dell" :)
I would not confuse Bio function with Bio living, again these did not elvolve naturally withing a bio sphere, but a man made sphere. Unless it occurs naturally in nature it is artifical, fraticals teach this.
An artifical heart provides bio function but is not living, a dialist machine filters blood but is not a kidney, an iron lung provides pressure and breath but is not a lung. Bio function cannot have life but can sustain it.
What about cloning?
Cloning is cut and paste not matter how you look at it.
It's still a living, biological thing...
What would you call GE plantation? (Genetically Engineered)
Very interesting, but even in biology the defenition of a virus is a small, nonliving particle. So theoretically no it's not alive. It is interesting how they divide though... maybe thats just me though.
ofcourse they live if not how they spread out to the world??
A single cell module as you stated does not live by ones order, not does a virus operate outside its creators specifications. Where is the comparision here?