I think JCMB's idea is good. AntiPoints are not a good system of discrimination.
But we also need to attract people with good knowledge.
How?
euh... I don't know. Perhaps with ads in others forums! LOL
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I think JCMB's idea is good. AntiPoints are not a good system of discrimination.
But we also need to attract people with good knowledge.
How?
euh... I don't know. Perhaps with ads in others forums! LOL
Care to elaborate on that one? Moderators aren't supposed to know more than the members (I know less about computers than a lot of people here): a referee at a football match isn't supposed to be a better player than the footballers themselves...Quote:
Originally posted by preep
u kick ppl out who know more than the moderators, i aint doin nothin for AO, as ao does nothin for me.
AO does nothing for you? Not for you in particular, no (although you have the possibility to get yourself an AO-email-addy...).
JP gaves us a site with a lot of potential: fast servers, loads of space, lots of possibilities... It's OUR job to use that enourmous potential, not JP's. Suggestions? Use the Suggestions-Forum.
AO is like a city: JP's the mayor. His word is law. The difference with a real city? No elections, but you aren't forced to stay here either.
Some people are chosen to be his aldermen/police squad. Their job is to run AO the way JP tells them to. The difference with a real city? No elections, but you're offered the possibility to complain. They have executive power, not legislative power.
The other 88.405 members are citizens (some respected, some outlaws, some anarchists, most of them part of the grey mass): you are allowed to say your opinion. You won't get banned for saying your opinion - that is, if you don't personally insult the mayor or abuse the system. You are allowed to complain. You are allowed to make suggestions. The only thing you're expected to do is contribute to the site and what it stands for. Not too much asked for, is it?
A lot of potential, and it's our duty to use it...
Most of my experience in programming comes from building homepages. I've been coming here for quite some time now, learning all that can, I signed up at the beginning of the month because I thought I could find some kind of mentor to look to for help with programming languages to build programs and whatnot. I have no experience with writing a program, and I've seen some really awesome and helpful programs like one for starkingdoms.com that helped you to distribute your points and soldiers. Those are the kind of things that I want to do. And yes, I search google, but you're not going to find me asking any questions that pertain to programming, because all I see is people flaming one another. So I'm taking a second approach and am helping members with their homepages, getting to know them.
I'm full of 'stupid' questions about things, things I'm sure to be flamed for. Everyone starts somewhere, and the things that may seem simple to one person, aren't simple for a person starting out. I have better protection on my computer now, and I guess my biggest goal would be learning how to help people who have security holes in their programs, I think it would be awesome to send a patch to someone and say.....Hey, problem fixed, glad I could help you. But that doesn't seem to be the general opinion here. Everyone bitches about one thing or another, they bitch at people who aren't grammatically correct, when it's apparent from their post, they obviously don't speak English very well, that doesn't mean they are stupid, maybe they just don't know how to word something to appease the AO masses. I promise you one thing in the time I'm here:
You ask a question, no matter whether or not it's 'stupid' or not (yes, even I think some questions are stupid, but that's because I've known the answer, or for some other reason)
I'm not going to flame you for it, I'm just going to answer you, treat you like a normal human being instead of chasing you out by calling you a scriptkiddie. Even if you ask me how to hack Hotmail, I'm going to point you to google, not call you an idiot. It was cool to me once too. It was fun sitting in school on their network and playing with Netbus and shutting down the librarians computer. Flame me, whatever. I'm past that now...everyone has a stage they go through, people grow and learn. Don't judge if you don't want to be judged.
I don't know...just a bunch of rambled on thoughts.
I don't understand. If AO does nothing for you, then why are you here? This is not a "go-away". I'm simply questioning your reasoning and motives. I think the best thing about AO is that it provides a place where like minded people can hang out and talk, ask questions and help each other out. In life, if you don't give, you don't get. It's that simple. Maybe if you did some giving you'd start getting something out of AO.Quote:
u kick ppl out who know more than the moderators, i aint doin nothin for AO, as ao does nothin for me.
Ummm...people seem to be missing the point. We don't need more forums. We have plenty of forums at AO as well as IRC, ICQ and various instant messengers. The point is that, while we have all these ways of communication, not much worthwhile communication is being done. If you don't have people who are willing to act, it doesn't matter how many forums there are. Nothing will get done. What we need are people willing to start projects and write tutorials. Let's get to the root of the problem instead of avoiding the real issue.Quote:
A forum that can only be accessed by members with X amount of AntiPoints is a good idea, and one which has been discussed before, the only problem is that many member's APs tend to fluctuate (e.g. in my case I went from 50 AP to -7, then suddenly shot up to ~300 in the space of four weeks!), so one day you might be able to post in the forum and the next day you might not because someone's given you some neg. AP.
However, I do agree with you on the point that it would be good to have such a forum. How about if it was that if you had ever had 300 AP (at any time), and you currently had over 200 AP, then you could post in the forum. That way, we could get rid of all the idiots who post stupid comments, yet not deny access to anyone who makes sensible suggestions yet has received some neg. AP from someone who doesn't agree with them.
Greetings All:
Excellent post Negative!
Then, I must restate that which has been said in previous posts...Why are you here?Quote:
Originally posted here by preep
u kick ppl out who know more than the moderators, i aint doin nothin for AO, as ao does nothin for me.
If this site does 'nothin' for you, then leave, and find one that does 'somethin' for you.
There will always be people who have a better grasp and/or a higher level of knowledge about certain subjects than others, but that doesn't warrant a 'kick'. What warrants that is probably a bad attitude, exceptional arrogance, abusive speech, or a general disrespect for others. Pure knowledge is no excuse to ban someone from a forum of any kind, and I am assured that that is not the case here. Frankly, I have a very low level of technical knowledge about the topics discussed here, but I am learning...because of my visits to this site. I have never been ridiculed for my lack of knowledge, nor been put on a pedestal for my knowledge of certain subjects. I certainly take more than I give, but isn't that expected of someone who is merely learning? But that is true only in order for me to give more than I take, eventually... Said axiom makes for a great dynamic of learning, actually...
If you feel conspired against, take it up with the 'webmaster', who, for all intents and purposes, is JP...but as far as function of this site goes...it's all of us. If you have a legitimate gripe, be straightforward and tell us about it, don't just bitch about it. One would tend to get better answers that way.
Just a thought...
Ouroboros
ok.. let me explain..
REASONS WHY YOU GET KICKED OUT BY AO MODERATORS IN THE FORUMS OR IRC...
1) Arogance or any form of foul behaviour
2) If you are involved in an illegal activity
3) Go back to number 1
thats all there is to it. AO seldomely KICKS or BOOTS a member off AO..
so far we can just count a handfull of them..
and about IRC... well unfortunately sometimes the OPs are trippin.. but i assure u.. IRC is hell lot more fun.. i mean.. we already have lots of IRC newbies.. and they are all having a great time.
yeah the sites good but i get my tools and "stuff", else where, but the forums are quite good.
but dosnt the points exlcude itehr users a bit, ur juts gonna get ppl asking to vote for tehm all teh time.
im sorry im still a little put off my being booted off irc, i was really enjoying AO untill that happend.
AO was a good site when i statrd, i would like to contribute now and again.
preep
Well, it's been a long time since I've posted anything of any real length so here goes. This is in response to JP and Negative's posts...
First off, when I came to AO (November of 2001) and signed up, I found there to be a lot of pretty intelligent people. Some smart, some cunning, some outright clever in ways I'll never be, and for the most part, friendly as well. I'd sign on the chat room and talk with the same people I've been posting next to. I don't put too much into the whole antipoint thing anymore because it's not a measure of knowledge and it's not a measure of intelligence. It's more like a measure of two things: A) respect from someone who doesn't know you and B) in some cases, how much someone 'likes' you and your posts. This is my opinion btw.
When I posted, I tried to be pretty open with anything I knew, passing it along and whatnot to people that had questions. Out of the 600+ posts I have, 500+ are security related with a few that aren't (like Eating_Scarlett's thread, rofl).
So what happened? What drifted me away? I kept on seeing things like cliques and I kept on seeing things like favoritism plaguing both the forums and the chat room. Nothing irks me more than to try my best to be part of the 'giving back' crowd (which is abysmally smaller than the taking crowd) only to see people get given 'status' positions like Op or a moderator of a forum and I myself haven't seen much from said person. This is NOT an attack on ANYONE who is an op or a forum moderator. I'm over that, but at the same time, I'm over trying to bust ass on giving back to a community where if you're not in the 'IN' crowd, you're overall ignored and to me, that's as much like saying 'We don't really need anything you contribute here'. End result? I take my ball and go home.
I like the people, and I like seeing the new faces in here now. Perhaps we can get out with the old mentality of flame wars and things like that and actually make this into something that's worthwhile to go to every day. I've recommended friends to log on and sign up and they have, because they know that I'm refering them to a site that's good for what they need to learn on. But then they see me leave, they ask why, I tell them, and even THEY say 'Yeah, I've seen some of that'. And these are people with less than 50 posts. They leave too, after that and that's depressing.
Maybe I'll get back into it, maybe I'll start posting more things on security again. There's a thousand maybes but then again, it could happen all over again. I know I've donated tutorials (in fact, I'm redoing the whole sudo tutorial right now just because Operations doesn't know how to really use it and it'd make a great second tutorial to the first), I've donated time, massive amounts of it in the beginning, and now, I've donated money to the "Bail JP out of jail!" thing...time will tell.
And no, I'm not expecting any responses of any detail from anyone on this. I haven't before and I'm not going to be surprised if I don't get any now.
lol wow.. Volrin.. do u have any idea how im preety much impressed with your work? considering that u registered 2 months after i did and u seem to earn preety much a lot of people's respects than i had.. i didnt knew u felt that way lol..
as for the cliques.. hmm i didnt notice any cliques in AO.. as far as i know.. everyone in AO are my clique.. the whole AO crew is my clique.. lol i defend AO like u were my own hommies.. and am serious.. i get people tellin me about bad stuff about AO and i know what they are telling is true, but i still defend AO.
and considering u were one of the people i say "wow, this kidd is fast" i wasnt expecting u'd feel bad about the AO community. i know AO was a lot more better when u first joined.. same here.. but a lot has changed coz most good members (such as u) leave AO.. hence there are less people to teach our aspiring newbies. but im glad ur back.
hmm preep.. did you check the Downloads section? coz AO has a HUUUGGGEEEE archive.. and im sure it deffinately has all the "stuff" u need.. hehehe trust me.. i surfed the archives for one day and i didnt even finished half of it..Quote:
yeah the sites good but i get my tools and "stuff", else where, but the forums are quite good.
well well i took a step back from this until now even thought im soughta the reason this thread started makes me so proud hehe
well the way i see it 90,000 memebers i dont know how many people a day jp gets through this site and how many major copertations and government agencies etc etc
with this amount of traffic im sure me and everyone else on this world would do something im not saying jp doesnt do anything cause i know he does alot of hard work well..... tehehe
where im going with this is simple if we had this amount of traffic on a site i would try change things ie change the way code is writen or organise the masses to do things ie distrbuted computing crack codes etc etc with rewards for contributing etc
jp must turn over heaps with the advertising etc etc and im sure he would be willing to share it with you the member because admit it what is he without us... but as jp says we take take take and give nothing in return. vallhalen is taking things the right way with his web page network idea but if people dont contribute its not going to go anywhere if you the member contributes
now its not all one sided jp also needs to as our valient leader needs to rally the troops as most people on this site look up to him as "uber_1337" im sure some people will do it if its not to difficult if jp doesnt have the time elect some with respect in these forums to do it.
taking a leaf out of cyberarmys book divisions where each group has a certain task to do ie advertising, exploiters etc etc im sure if we could pool the talents into one group alot could get done if the leaders for each group set specific tasks. just an idea..?
hehe sorry bout this my mind is jumping **** i just broke my lava lamp ohh well
back to this
the way i see it its a joint effort between us and JP we give a bit jp gives a bit ..
hehe ok sorry if a lot of that had been said but i just need to say my part
and hope something gets through to someone
RiOtEr
Thanks s0nic, it's appreciated. I don't ever go into a post about security with the 'I'm hoping to get greenies for this' or whatnot because that's not what I'm here for and it's not what I'm going for. However, I could name a major 'clique' (if you will) and I'm pretty sure there are others who would say 'Yeah...I have to agree with that' but then all that would do is put myself out front to take the shots by said people who have a lot more "power" than I do.Quote:
Originally posted here by s0nIc
lol wow.. Volrin.. do u have any idea how im preety much impressed with your work? considering that u registered 2 months after i did and u seem to earn preety much a lot of people's respects than i had.. i didnt knew u felt that way lol..
as for the cliques.. hmm i didnt notice any cliques in AO.. as far as i know.. everyone in AO are my clique.. the whole AO crew is my clique.. lol i defend AO like u were my own hommies.. and am serious.. i get people tellin me about bad stuff about AO and i know what they are telling is true, but i still defend AO.
and considering u were one of the people i say "wow, this kidd is fast" i wasnt expecting u'd feel bad about the AO community. i know AO was a lot more better when u first joined.. same here.. but a lot has changed coz most good members (such as u) leave AO.. hence there are less people to teach our aspiring newbies. but im glad ur back.
Nothing's wrong with giving antipoints and nothing's wrong with being an op or moderator. I don't put much in the greenies because they don't really mean that much but when someone new comes in and within a few months is higher than just about everyone, that should mean something. I'm talking about "this guy gets a lot of points from everyone and his posts are pretty on-target...perhaps he'd like to have ownership of something". I'd love to be helping out for AO "officially" but that won't happen and I don't know that any offering now would be accepted because it still doesn't address the problem. This is why good people 'leave'. I never really left...more or less, I just took a break. But others have, and others will.
ohh one other thing hehe
s0nic pointed it out the text archives and download archives are huge and are used by people but one thing their so unorganised that theirs not much of an order this site could get a lot more traffic if the txts were uptadted and put in a logical order like the ones on google.com and textfiles.com the trafic would increase its a mamoth job but it would be worth it
RiOtEr
yeah.. i was suggesting JP in IRC to put a "search" thingy for his Downloads section.. i dont know when he's gonna do it.. but i did suggest it.. and RiOtEr.. your avatar.. did you know that the head of that ghost is once my insignia when i was a cracker? if u can find my desktop screenshot.. you will see the My Computer icon is the head of your ghost.
This was inspired by Vorlin's post which was one of the best posts that I've read in quite a while. There are a lot of good ideas coming out of this thread but, like I said before, it doesn't matter what you say unless you do something about it.
<rant mode=on>
Here's what I personally would like to see more of at AO:
1) More book reviews and product reviews.
If you've read a book on hacking or network security and you thought it sucked/owned, tell us. It doesn't take long to write down a couple of paragraphs about what you think. Don't regurgitate the blurb on the back of the book. Tell us what you thought of it in your own words. The same thing goes for products. If you've used a tool and it's really good, tell us and tell us why it's good. This won't take much more than 10 minutes of your time but you'll really be helping other people out. And this is something that everyone can do. You don't have to be some hacking guru. We can all read and write so lets use that.
2) More original ideas
Got an opinion? Got what you think is a great idea? Stand up for what you believe in and say it! No one should get negative AP's just for stating their opinion. And even if you do get negative points, who gives a ****? After all, they're only little green beans. Who knows, someone might even agree with you ;).
3) Write programs/code
Yes, yes, yes! Can you string some lines of code together? Write a program, a script, a function, ANYTHING dammit. Write code and post it up. There are people here you are willing to help you becoming a better programmer. Every programmer has their own ways of doing things and we can all learn little things from each other.
4) More tutorials
If you know something, share it with other poeple. Some people might already know a lot of it, but there WILL be someone somewhere who learns something from what you've written. You don't have to be a great hacker/programmer. If you're good at maths, post something about discrete mathematics. If you're into physics, there's a whole world of cool stuff that can be applied to computers. If you're good at English, write a story about hacking. Write something! You might just inspire someone. You might even surprise and inspire yourself.
<rant mode=off>
The point is that everyone has skills and talents. Everyone can contribute something. If you've been doing a lot of taking at AO recently, try some giving. Believe me, giving feels a hell of a lot better...
The person who "hacked" AO... I thought it was just some guy who had found out that Ask Bub wasn't properly checking inputs because it wasn't being passed through the same checking routine that other forms on the site were, and that he contacted JP about it... That's what I remember, at least.
Back to the topic... I only block pop-up ads. :)
Now, I know it sounds neat to have projects and code etc... but wouldn't that be sort of like playing catch-up to sites which are already dedicated to it? In my mind the strongest asset AO has is it's forums, and it wouldn't be productive to concentrate on other things only to find most people going to the 'popular' sites for non-forum activities anyway...
Pure Speculation Follows.
I would guess that the Anticode archives are the primary reason script-kiddies become attracted to AO. Are they very useful or current, those archives? Would removing them benefit the rest of the site?
Is it better to concentrate and have one thing well, or do lots of things at once but unexceptionally? On the internet, non-new people (I'm guessing here.) tend to have several specific sites for specific things, rather than one-general-stop. Would having a second-best exploit-listing etc. really help AO?
And yes, I am submitting an article for the Newsletter :P
*Wonders* My how this thread has changed...
System_0verload
I don't really see how sharing/talking about code is counter-productive. The banner says, "AntiOnline: Hackers know the weaknesses in your system. Shouldn't you?" Well if we want to learn more about protecting our weaknesses, learning about programming is the place to start.Quote:
Now, I know it sounds neat to have projects and code etc... but wouldn't that be sort of like playing catch-up to sites which are already dedicated to it? In my mind the strongest asset AO has is it's forums, and it wouldn't be productive to concentrate on other things only to find most people going to the 'popular' sites for non-forum activities anyway...
I guess some people see AO as a place to just hang and talk about their interests in Network Security. That's fine but it doesn't really go along with what the banner says the site is all about.
Interesting theory Terr. I don't think the archives are really that current but people seem to read them all anyway in the hope that it will help them learn more about hacking. The thing is that these files can be found in heaps of places all over the Internet. Do we really need to hang on to them? Personally if I want a text file, there's www.google.com for that, but it's horses for courses I guess.Quote:
I would guess that the Anticode archives are the primary reason script-kiddies become attracted to AO. Are they very useful or current, those archives? Would removing them benefit the rest of the site?
It's JP's site. What sort of user do you want to attract JP?
Ok, I ask yourselves this fellow AO'ers. What does AntiOnline actually do. I don't mean what do we talk about. I mean what do we actually do? Are we doing enough for a site that proclaims that it's dedicated to finding the weaknesses in systems? Could we be doing more? If people see AO as a place just to talk about what other people/sites come up with that's their right, but it's not very exciting ;).Quote:
Is it better to concentrate and have one thing well, or do lots of things at once but unexceptionally? On the internet, non-new people (I'm guessing here.) tend to have several specific sites for specific things, rather than one-general-stop. Would having a second-best exploit-listing etc. really help AO?