Big Brother?

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Originally posted here by rogue_scholarX
2. No, not due to the card, but the card could be used as a tool to identify those that they need to oppress.

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just to expoint on their history of oppression. i'm sure everybody here knows who John Lennon was. well are you all aware that the FBI kept files on him in an attempt to find an excuse to deport him? why you ask? because he didnt like the vietnam war and happened to mention that fact on national TV.

so wait a second here: sombody excersizes thier 1ts ammendment right by saying they dont like something, then they are labeled a threat and the government tries to "neutralize" them by removing them from the country...yea, that sounds about right :rolleyes:

There is one flaw in all the governments of the world plans for centralized citizen databases.That flaw is, if man can build it, man can tear it down.

Well,

I guess if the govt. wants to keep a centralized infobase, why not! in case of an emergency like greek godess pointed out, it wud serve well, am not aware on the dynamics of ur countires, but in a country like India, where there is a large scale hostile infiltration from countries like pakistan and bangladesh, sounds to me like a good idea.

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Originally posted here by xTOXICSOLDIERx
All im saying is would you want to be scanned and then judged due to what a card says?

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well, wouldnt the information on the card be true? Shouldnt people have the rigth to judge you for your crimes you have committed? besides who's going to judge you? the doctors? Well when a drug dealer gets shot and comes to a hospital they dont turn him away even if they know what he does for a living, they are doctors they save lives.

And it's not like they are going to make it readable by just anyone who gets their hands on teh card they'd probably put encryption on it plus you'd have to buy a special card reader. But i relaly dont see the big deal since the information is out there and accessable right now.

Darkk Inferno

First of all, who said anything about a tracking device? This is just a card with information stored in it. If you have any reason to be tracked, chances are the government is already doing it without the card.

I think that different areas of the chip can only be accessed by different people. I think that if you're in a hospital, then the hospital information is encrypted in a way that their microchip readers only bring up relevant information. That way, if you're at a bank, they don't know that you have AIDS or any information that is unrelevant to your account there.

It's called convienience. It would be nice to have a centrallized card that stores all of your information. If you've applied for a visa, just carry this card around and let it be scanned to show that you have one.

Better yet, now that a lot of employers are doing background checks, especially in the medical and child care field, you can have your card scanned for that purpose, copies of your fingerprints (yes, they fingerprint you like a criminal in those fields)

Does it need to store your sexual preference? No.
Does it need to store your religion? No.
Will people abuse it? Yes....but what technology hasn't been abused?

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Originally posted here by GreekGoddess
First of all, who said anything about a tracking device? This is just a card with information stored in it. If you have any reason to be tracked, chances are the government is already doing it without the card.

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Exactly what she said, if the government wants to track you, they don't need a National I.D card to that.

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Originally posted here by GreekGoddess
I think that different areas of the chip can only be accessed by different people. I think that if you're in a hospital, then the hospital information is encrypted in a way that their microchip readers only bring up relevant information. That way, if you're at a bank, they don't know that you have AIDS or any information that is unrelevant to your account there.

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Another great point by GreekGoddess, this card would show relevant information to the people who need it.

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Originally posted here by Darkk_Inferno
well, wouldnt the information on the card be true? Shouldnt people have the rigth to judge you for your crimes you have committed? besides who's going to judge you? the doctors? Well when a drug dealer gets shot and comes to a hospital they dont turn him away even if they know what he does for a living, they are doctors they save lives.

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What I've been trying to say the whole time. The information on the card would be the truth and if you've been an idiot and have a bad record on the card then that's your fault, not mine. And Darkk_Inferno said it best, who would judge you?? A doctor? A baker? Come'on get serious, this card would just be more convient and would help you out in times.

Yes, but still your points are moot, you have yet to submit any factual evidence that this is a good idea. We have cited examples in history where the government has taken advantage of what seem's like a 'good idea' at first. And all of your 'advantages' to the card are complete assumptions. You don't get to choose who see's the card's information, you don't choose what is put on the card! You have No Evidence what they are putting on the card, and none that it could even be used to help someone at a hospital.

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Originally posted here by Darkk_Inferno
well, wouldnt the information on the card be true? Shouldnt people have the rigth to judge you for your crimes you have committed? besides who's going to judge you?

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Already people begin to assume that if you are against people rifling through your history, that you have something to hide. In truth who would judge me? I don't care, I will be judged once when it matters and none of you have the ability to sway the decision in that matter.

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Originally posted here by rogue_scholarX
Yes, but still your points are moot, you have yet to submit any factual evidence that this is a good idea. We have cited examples in history where the government has taken advantage of what seem's like a 'good idea' at first. And all of your 'advantages' to the card are complete assumptions. You don't get to choose who see's the card's information, you don't choose what is put on the card! You have No Evidence what they are putting on the card, and none that it could even be used to help someone at a hospital.

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I can't provide factual evidence that this National I.D card is a good idea but you also cannot provide factual evidence that the National I.D card is a bad idea. And yes, all my advantages are complete assumptions but aren't all your disadvantages also assumptions. Like you said, "You don't get to choose who see's the card's information, you don't choose what is put on the card! You have No Evidence what they are putting on the card." I also agree that in the past good ideas have had their share of negative outcomes but doesn't everything have an opposite end to it? And haven't we dealt with the "good ideas" that were actually bad in the past? Why not give the card a chance and see how it turns out? I'm assuming the government would do this for the better not for the worse like you think, so I still stand by my original statement, the card would be a great idea and I would like to see it in the near future.

I would definately be interested in seeing how the ID card system is implemented and works in other countreis before it is used in the US. If its anything like the prohibition of private owernership of firearms in Australia, then I don't think it will work.

As for medical info stored on a card, there is a downside. Some of you may not believe me, but I have it on account from people who have worked as paramedics, If you are in a car accident and have severe and life threatening injuries, the paramedics are higly likely to NOT save your life if you have an organ donor symbol on your license. Just Imagine if they can tell that you have a terminal illness that limits you to two more years of GOOD life before dying, they would probably just figure to let you die then to save time and "help" somone in need of a transplant or some other medical procedure.

On the topic of moral rights and the governemnt, Taxes Are Stealing!, and no one can argue otherwise, because we (in the us) get absolutely no say in taxes, and if we decide we don't want to pay, we get tossed in jail, so basically taxes are "collected" by force, which equates to stealing in my book.

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Originally posted here by Syini666
As for medical info stored on a card, there is a downside. Some of you may not believe me, but I have it on account from people who have worked as paramedics, If you are in a car accident and have severe and life threatening injuries, the paramedics are higly likely to NOT save your life if you have an organ donor symbol on your license. Just Imagine if they can tell that you have a terminal illness that limits you to two more years of GOOD life before dying, they would probably just figure to let you die then to save time and "help" somone in need of a transplant or some other medical procedure.

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Good point, but for some reason I doubt the reality of this happening. I'm about 99% sure that paramedics are required to do anything possible to save your life.

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Originally posted here by Syini666
On the topic of moral rights and the governemnt, Taxes Are Stealing!, and no one can argue otherwise, because we (in the us) get absolutely no say in taxes, and if we decide we don't want to pay, we get tossed in jail, so basically taxes are "collected" by force, which equates to stealing in my book.

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I agree taxes are a form of stealing but I think some are due to the government, public services and other tax funded organizations are needed but some taxes, like the ones on food and clothes should be waived.

and death, inheritance and marraige taxes. When you think about it, paramedics are th first on scene ususally, if no ones around, how would anyone know if they let someone die or tried to help them......this is espcially true in the area in which I live.

Just kind of hard to believe that people hired to save your life would let you die. It might happen, it might not happen, but couldn't that happen anytime, even if you don't have a National I.D card???

jaguar291 > yeah, its a real tossup situation, but its more likely if your a designated organ donor. I guess it might just be a local thing, cause I li've in a really backwoods kind of area.

I understand that but this is about the National I.D card. How would the National I.D card effect the job of paramedics?? If a paramedic wants you to die, he won't care what a National I.D card says, he'll/she'll just let you die.

Syini666, I agree with the organ doner thing.
/me has it on his license.. =\

The taxes thing though I completely disagree. Taxes are a neccesity in any government. How else would roads be built, public education be paid for, military force protect you, police forces protect you etc...

I agree some taxes are a bit weird, but the money has to come from somewhere. I always have to laugh at presidents that say "We will have better schools, better military, and LOWER TAXES!" (crowd cheers)

How are we supposed to pay for these things then? Again the money has to come from somewhere. You do benefit from taxes in many ways that go unnoticed. I'm sure if you think about it a bit you will see.
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Originally posted here by xmaddness
"We will have better schools, better military, and LOWER TAXES!" (crowd cheers)

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Hasn't it been proven that our (United States) education system is going down the toilet?? In my opinoin I think our military still sucks, if we're having dead from come back from Afghanistan where they throw rocks and poke people with sticks I think that is sad. As for taxes, I don't know about them, I'm only 15 and don't have to pay them. Hehehe! :)

If you're so worried about the whole organ donor issue, then don't become one. That's exactly the reason I'm not. I'm the type of person who believes there is truth to every rumor, and I doubt anyone would want my used and abused organs when I die anyway. (certainly not with the amount of cigarettes I smoke and the prescription I take)

Jaguar, Believe it or not, the afganies do have some pretty up to date military technology. Some include, RPG's (rocket propelled grenades), ak47's, and all kinds of other morter weapons, and gun turrets. Back in the 80's (i think), Afganistan was in a huge war with the russians. The russians lost. So now all the weapons and munitions that were left by the russians are in the hands of the Afganies. They even have helocopters. I think they had 8 of them before, barly running, but they still have them. I'm also pretty sure they have tanks and other stuff. And the biggest factor is the fact that they are fighting for their own land. This will make any fighter twice as strong. Death in war is inevitable. Especially when its on enemy territory.

And trust me when I say, we do have one of the strongest militaries around, only others that have a big of one is england, britain, and the isralies.

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Originally posted here by xmaddness
Jaguar, Believe it or not, the afganies do have some pretty up to date military technology. Some include, RPG's (rocket propelled grenades), ak47's, and all kinds of other morter weapons, and gun turrets. Back in the 80's (i think), Afganistan was in a huge war with the russians. The russians lost. So now all the weapons and munitions that were left by the russians are in the hands of the Afganies.

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That plus we (United States) helped them out, we trained thousands of them in the Russian-Afghan War. I even read somewhere that Osama bin Laden was trained by some our troops. But come'on we have the power to shoot a missile up a bastard's ass 5,000 miles away and still we have dead troops. :(

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Originally posted here by xmaddness

And trust me when I say, we do have one of the strongest militaries around, only others that have a big of one is england, britain, and the isralies.

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I think you forgot China, they have (I think) the strogest and biggest army in the world.

Thats true, I knew I forgot another major power. China is considered the sleeping giant.

Also it is true that we did train Osama Bin Laden and half his army to fight against the russians. We also gave them arms during the war, hense some more technology they have. We have already surppassed the point of just throwing missles out after them. A ground war is now inevitable. The afganies are now hiding in underground bunkers in mountains and hills. We don't have the technology to simply say, hey there's a cave showing up on radar or on the sats. They have been constructing these underground bunkers for years after the russian war and many are very advanced. Some have running water, air supplys and pumps, and troop quarters. The only way to find these bunkers is to go out and search for them by foot, planes, and helocopters. And when the helocopters get close to one they begin to get fired upon by sam missles and rpg's. The gulf war was alot easier of a war because they didn't have caves and the terrain was flat dessert. In afganistan it is completely different.
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One thing that has been bugging me in reading all these posts is that in many of the references, instead of using 'the government', 'they' is used. Might just be a quicky way to reference it, but it seems to me, at least in the States, that people forget, this government is OUR government, it is for the people, by the people...If you don't like something our government is doing, it is your right and duty to let your representative in government know, and loudly...

If enough people would engage in their civic duty and give your elected representatives an earful for some of the boneheaded things going on in this country from time to time, instead of passively saying 'they are going to do this no matter what' and allowing it to happen, then the US will face a dark future...

Your government works for you, NOT vice versa...

Neb

Crap, typing too fast again and not proofreading...then the US will face a dark future --> then the US will NOT face a dark future...

Duhhhhh...

Also meant to add, the government governs with the consent of the people. The government has power given to it by the people, it is the citizens of the US that hold the real power, but only if they participate...

are you trying push my buttons or what
Have you heard about draft cards, more specificly burning them I have friends who are living in canada thirty years after that war, why because they belived that the govt. was behaving like terrorists.
I spent three years wearing green because I felt I was needed (no not in east asia) but I was in panama in 80-81
BUT I WILL NOT SUBMIT TO NATIONAL ID CARDS
the federal govt. is suppost to support state govt. and be a single voice to the rest of the world NOT MY BABYSITTER...............
Sorry about the rant but I have seen personal freedom slowly erode because people trusted the feds to do the right thing/ they are in power because they like the power/
the federal govt will not support any ideas or actions that will empower the average person to do so would reduce their personal importance and power
anyway sorry again if I'v offended anyone but the only person who can contol and regulate my behavior is ME>>>>>> what we need is more personal responsability, good manners wouldnt hurt either.
<<<< steppin out to cool off >>>>>>>

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And trust me when I say, we do have one of the strongest militaries around, only others that have a big of one is england, britain, and the isralies.

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On a sidenote england and britain are the same country. Im pretty sure the pecking order is China, America, England, Israel, Australia, Canada etc.. not positive as to Australia and Canada but they are essentially America's little brothers' anyway. (Being kind of ironic since Canada was a french settlement and Australia the British island prison.)

Nebulus, sorry but you need to step outside. Thanks to global media the politicians can completely ignore what people think. (They did in florida). It is no longer the role of citizens to be active, to operate the citizens must be complacent outsiders only observing what They do to us. The government has long been separate from the normal citizenry and no one has noticed that it was not meant that way. The government is supposed to be an active body that supports the will of the American people. It is supposed to be the head, while the people are the body. Unfortunately it seems that the Government has become a conveyer belt, and only needs us so that it can appear useful.

I personally don't think it's any different that the driver's licenses that we currently use, it would just provide more access than whether you're supposed to be driving or not. I think that should be done here in the U.S. just make it part of the D.L. that also insures that if you're in a country, whether it's the U.S. or not, you're ok to be there.

National ID cards have long been advocated as a means to enhance national security, unmask potential terrorists, and guard against illegal immigrants. They are in use in many countries around the world including most European countries, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand.

Americans have consistently rejected the idea of a national ID card. In 1971 the Social Security Administration task force on the SSN rejected the extension of the Social Security Number to the status of an ID card. In 1973, the Health, Education and Welfare (HEW) Secretary's Advisory Committee on Automated Personal Data Systems concluded that a national identifier was not desirable. In 1976, the Federal Advisory Committee on False Identification rejected the idea of an identifier. In 1977, the Carter Administration reiterated that the SSN was not to become an identifier, and in 1981 the Reagan Administration stated that it was "explicitly opposed" to the creation of a national ID card. Throughout the debates over health care reform, the Clinton Administration also constantly stressed that it was opposed to a national identifier. In 1999 Congress repealed a controversial provision in the llegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 which gave authorization to include Social Security Numbers on drivers' licenses.

In response to the tragic events of September 11, 2001, there has been renewed interest in the creation of national ID cards. Larry Ellison, head of Oracle Corporation, the California based software company, has called for the development of a national identification system and offered to donate the technology to make this possible. He proposed ID cards with embedded digitized thumbprints and photographs of all legal residents in the U.S. UK Home Secretary David Blunkett is also considering proposals for a national ID card. So far, however, no such measures have been proposed in Congress and the White House is reportedly "not even considering the idea".

Tons of relevant articles included in this document...very interesting read.

I think when people realize that when the government says "more security" they actually mean, more control over the people than actual security, it will already be too late. You can't stop a moving train by standing in front of it.

Also, they speak of add security. Good. I want SECURITY! Old Fashioned Security. None of the 'eye in the sky' type. To get good security you need old fashioned security. Guards manning entry ways, guards paying ATTENTION, guards being PAID what they are worth.

Another rant that I have. Or question if you will....

If we had national ID cards back in 1995, would the O.K. City bombing still taken place?

Goddess, the site you posted is from EPIC, they are VERY anti-national ID. In fact almost everything after the quote you took from their site is news about how they are fighting it.

I know...I thought that might add to the perspective a little, seeing some of the reasons that other people came up with against the whole ID card idea.

Oh ok, that's really cool... most people don't even try to understand the other POV let alone post links to it. :P

I think that we've beaten this cat dead... and flat... and poor kitty. Im dropping my argument as i've already said everything that needs to be. See you round GreekGoddess.