Slavery reparations

Unfortunately Brad racism is anything but only in America.

Indeed one of the bright lights is that racism in America has had so little violence associated with it as opposed to other places in the world. Many of our current conflicts are race based although they are often portrayed as religion. For the really horrendous acts of race violence lately we need only look at Bosnia (I know they say Christians vs Muslim but it is really Serbs vs. Croats) or Rwanda. I don't think I even need to mention Israel which again I do not believe is truly religious in nature but is racist in nature. The suppression of the Khurds, the tension between Pakistan and India.

People seem to want to blame religion but if you look at the religion there is nothing to base that blame on. The teachings of the muslim faith are peace, dedication and tolerance. Christianity teaches love, forgiveness and acceptance. Even though both religious books speak of slavery neither condones it nor supports it (and certainly the Bible's description of slavery was Whites owning Whites for the most part). This is one reason why I do not like the term "Radical Muslim Extremists" and would prefer the truth "Radical Middle Eastern Extremists". While some may pervert the Muslim faith for their own racist ends that should not be used to teach the world to hold Islam in contempt. Remember many pervert the teachings of the Bible to perpetuate the insipid belief in "White Supremacy". I do not want people thinking badly about my religion because of the "Radical Stupid Red Necks".

I must admit that I would have absolutely no problem with the Federal Government offering a formal apology to the African Americans and the Indians for its treatment of them in the past. While this would mostly be symbolic I cannot see any reason it should not be done.

Also I would have to refute the argument about a White Men's month. As one person I heard on the radio stated when talking about the Race Days (African American Day, Hispanic Dry etc.) in Tulare's Fair stated when asked about when they would have a White Day, "All the other days are White days." The reason there is no White history month is because most of the history taught in schools, written about, and portrayed on the TV channel is white history. As a lover of Military History there has been some change in this and to truly study military history you study many non-Eurocentric cultures.

However, where many people see racism getting worse I think it has gotten better but that we need to keep fighting to make it even better. I am not sure the government is the best place to do this (although I still think a formal apology would be an excellent start). But, I am not sure Government programs ever really help out those they are meant to. Certainly not efficiently. That is my main concern about Government sponsored programs.

I still point to the Asian community that overcame obstacles exactly like the ones facing the African American community today. There are ways to pull yourself out without relying on a government that is not, has never been, and never really will be able to solve the issue. I am in agreement with most of the African Americans posting here that you have a harder time than I do. I truly believe that while it has gotten better there is a long way to go. I believe whites that whine about reverse discrimination are far more pathetic than any African American I have ever dealt with.

I also believe we should strive to look at the positive while working to correct the negative. One of the problems I see, even in these posts, is that often the stance taken by the African Americans posting here are taken as personal assaults by the Whites and as whining by the Native Americans. The posts by the Whites are seen as defensive and an attempt to elude the issues. But I see strides forward. As was stated 40 years ago African Americans sat on the back of the bus, separate but equal (which was anything but equal) was the law in many states, Jim Crow laws were not in place but operated as though they were, and violence was common and ignored in many places.

Some of this still goes on but things have gotten better. Thanks to brave individuals (not all of whom were African Americans) segregation is more in the past than in the present, when violence erupts the government is far more likely to investigate vigorously and prosecute than ever before. African Americans hold more seats in Congress and the Senate and have more Governors and Mayors than at any time in history. Also, more African Americans are running companies, opening businesses and being listed in the ranks of millionaires (and not because of pro sports or music) than ever before. The fact that Jackson, Sharpton, and Farrakhan can debate their views in relative safety is a positive sign of the times. Their predecessors, whom I admire far more than them, all too often succumbed to the assasins bullet. On a slightly off topic I do not approve of the current trend to humanize heros like Dr. Martin Luther King by discussing his private life. He was a man who stood tall against fearful times and deserves to be remembered with honor.

Finally, I really appreciate hearing the views from people of other nations. I read the BBC and other foreign news sources to get a less American biased opinion about things. So proactive I don't think you should be shy at all. However I disagree with your assessment. Things are still harder for African Americans and Native Americans here but they are better than they have ever been and they are continuing to get better although the progress is not as rapid as I would hope and pray for.

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Originally posted here by proactive

And I don't think there's no use saying "take pride in your country", that's not gonna work. When your father & grandfather worked in a burger-joint and lived in the crummy neighbourhoods, there's no chance you're gonna go to Harvard. That's like one in a million. The rests gonna be stuck right where they're father & grandfather were. And the numbers of people who don't fit into society is growing and growing.

My point is that the American goverment has to actively do something about this problem, not just sit back and wait for better times because they're not coming. Building more jails is not gonna help either. Somehow these people has to be pulled back into society, and that's gonna cost you your tax money. And perhaps a few of your principles about free enterprise. What I'm suggesting is things like recognizing slavery as a crime done to the black americans by the Goverment. Paying for work-training, free kindergarten for people that can't afford it, creating jobs for everyone & see to it that they pay off. Nobody's gonna work for nothing. Stuff like that.

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That seems to be one of the problems.....people want the government to pay all these things to make up for slavery that was done by the wealthy 100 + years ago. I myself don't want my tax dollars going to put someone else's kids through daycare (I have enough fun paying for my own...). Bad enough the morons here voted to use government money to build a stadium instead of paying their teachers, police and fire reasonable wages. Something happen to one of your ancestors way back when? Gee that sucks...get over it. It happens to everyone in one form or another at one time or another.

Everyone is given the same chance to do something with their lives....some people do indeed have it easier than others but that is a very small percentage. You don't need to have alot of money to study hard, or work hard. If people would get off their lazy asses and take some responsibility for their own lives then they would not have to live in the ghetto....or work in the burger joints. If one place discriminates against you because of your color, sexual orientation, whatever then you either need to take legal action, find a new place to work, or both. I've been discriminated against myself (clean cut white male) for having tatoos (that are hidden by a t-shirt). Boss saw them one day while I was changing out of my uniform and he never liked me from that day onward. So I went and got a better job.

The government isn't the one holding people back, the people do a good enough job of that themselves. And while they are doing it many of them use cheap excuses like 'it's the government's fault', 'corporate america', 'he's just a racist'. If you let that hold you back then it is just as much your fault as theirs.

there are plenty of "white" people have have since come to this country, or have no slaveowners in their backgrounds and plenty of "black" people who have since come to this country or have no slaves in their backgrounds.

Logic check required. All "white" people owe all "black" people money? Intellectual dishonesty is at work here.

You know what this **** sickens me and pisses me off. This whole poor me attidude is disguesting. This is america and you have to work hard to get your 40 acres and mule. And racism works both ways trust me I know. The problem is this country believes only the white people are predjudice towards the black man. Well since I live in a predominantly black community and I being one of the few white people I have to deal with **** all the time. My house gets egged every halloween. When I was younger I used to get beat up all the time only because I was white and plus my house has gotten spray painted by *******s also. I myself hold no predjudices towards any race, sexual preference or whatever but I seriously don't think we should have to pay people because they were enslaved. My native american ancestors were enslaved but do you think I give a ****??? NO! It's over and it's history. All you whiny people with poor me attidute can honestly suck my dick including you Nth Man. Why does america owe you anything??? I highly doubt you have had to deal with racism as bad as I have. But I don't bitch and whine about it, it has only made me a stronger person and set an example for me not to be like that. Well I think this idea is complete bullshit and if anyone has a problem with my post please let my know. Well that's just my 2 cents all.

thanx techiechick for reminding me my spelling sux :) my resume' may didn't have any typos:) i didn't get the position because it was a clique thing(dame it I ended my sentance with a preprositional phrase dame i spell sentence wrong too!) hmmm subtrace 5 points for not using the proper puncuation mark also

I just have one short comment,

All I want is to have a free America, without quota's, without spaces for ethnicity on tests/exams/applications, and most importantly equality amongst physical traits.

One thing to add aswell, it sickens me to death that universities, employers, and government facilities, hire based upon race to meet quotas, and to make it *fair*. Pardon me, but how the hell is it fair to hire based upon race?! What did I miss!?

i have to say i agree with gold eagle, no one in my family EVER had anything to do with slavery, except for being one ever time anyone wanted to see what was on the other side of the steppes.

BUT

After reading all the posts, i've learned allot from every one but nth man, who just pisses me off. darkguardian's link was very enlightening, and i now think this will be an interesting case to watch. Did General Sherman's pledge, revoked by jackson (andrew not jessie) have any validity to it and will the army via .gov have to live up to it. What happened did directly affect every black person in this country.

Before i read this thread, all i could see is al sharp-tongued walking away wearing a big **** eating grin. Counting a large roll of cash, saying heee heee, heee! Put into a fund to help disadvantaged black families, is a mule of a different color. maybe the idea of land or rather housing (not in urban areas) could do away with the 'hood', which IMO is the biggest hindrance to underprivileged blacks. but my opinion isn't well thought out.

the government has done nothing but screw up everything in their attempts at doling out equality. if we did this to begin with we'd all be allot better off instead of wasting money through bureaucracy.

This will be interesting, but i still ain't giving nobody **** :-)

(anybody who says anything about double negatives suks. i use them because i like them)

Tedob1, I've learned from this thread too. For one thing, racism is wrong under ANY circumstances. But I've also had it driven home that racism is not racist, as in it doesn't manifest itself exclusivly in the 'white man'. The fact that racism doesn't recognize race qualifies as a paradox, doesn't it?

Ok. The way I see this is:

The US government:

who did not capture slaves (other African tribes did)
who did not transport slaves ( private companies mostly from Europe did)
who did not own slaves (private individuals did)
who outlawed the practice and had a civil war over it
now has to pay reparations over it?

I am a 1st generation born in America, descending from Scottish coal miners and
French Canadian trappers. My taxes should pay what?

Trace the companies and individuals responsible for your plight, go after them.
Otherwise, it's deep pocket legislation, kinda like suing fast food restaraunts for supersizing your lunch.

In Germany, it was the government that oppressed the Jews, that is why reparations are in order. The Americans of Japanese heritage that were deprived of their land and livlihood during WW2 were also oppressed by a government, thats why reparations were in order. The Native Americans have a strong case for reparations as their oppressor was the US government.

This is my final reply on this subject because I’m close to being banned for my opinions on the topic. The war did not start because of any injustices or treatment of blacks, remember slavery existed on the contientnent (well, for blacks) since (I may be wrong) the 1620's so the general consensus of that most whites (except for the abolitionist’s) was the "Negros were property like a mule or any other beast of burden", 1/3 of a man so no right to vote in an election. This ideology of blacks as property was ingrained in the hearts and souls of everyone (if you continually tell your captives they are property they begin to believe it!)So the idea of blacks escaping must have taken a lot of self reflecting hard work and courage. Who do I trust? where do I go?(a lot of blacks ran south to the Indian territories in Florida and other parts of the country where bounty hunters would not go. swamps, insects, alligators, etc) what do I eat? These thoughts barely scratch the surface of what a person must have had to prepare themselves to go through before they even took that first step. Kind of like an F18 pilot being shot down over the middle of Iraq. No where to run no where to hide. The war between the north and south was over economic division, Agriculture vs. industry and state rights. The abolitionists jump on the ban wagon and began to fuel the flames of war, Plus the election of Lincoln. Why do I feel America owes African Americans and apology and slave reparations? The constitution which was written by the founding fathers guaranteed all citizens life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Where were the slave’s life, liberty and happiness? When was it ever protected? Remember laws such as the Jim Crow laws where passed to deny these pursuits. "But this happened over 137 years ago, my ancestors never owned slaves, blacks should forget about it and work hard like the Asians, and others ethnics groups that are very successful". I guess I'm just another lazy African American... even though I'm working on my bachelor’s degree in Astronomy and working full time again. Would anyone here tell the Jewish community to forget the holocaust? Asking that is like denying someone the right to their feelings. Slave reparation is not some topic that just started with Rev J. Jackson or Al Sharpton; it was and is a fight to right a wrong. If America would have owned up to here responsibility we would not be debating this today. But America did not bring slaves over here or capture slaves, but America did not stop the practice (by the way has anyone check the registry on those ships to see what the captain and crew claimed as their home country?) I'm not angry, I believe in fairness and justice for everyone! If you are wronged by any entity, state of being, person, I believe you should fight for your rights period. shringrila I didn't insult you personally, I was stating my opinion. How does your trailer getting egged on Halloween compare to what happen to the African Americans in Forsyth country Georgia or your uncles getting lynched? You got beat up by black kids, I’m sorry, I went to a predominately all white school (I was 1 of 3) in the 4th grade and remembering the mean teachers and kids. Oh well life goes on. We all have personal stories like yours shrangrila. Fourdc the German government are the individual people and the companies. I already named three in a previous post. it is my belief that if this proposal gets off the ground, it would be more of a trust fund for schools and other grants, etc.

I believe that the african americans should get the same "reparations" that the jews did.
The jews were put through a whole lot of bullshit because of hitler and his racist views and today we "america" is still bending over backwards to appease the jews,we give the jewish government 14 million
U.S. dollars a day and that's a fact.That's several billion $$ a year meanwhile there are people in our own country who are homeless and starveing with no medical care and no jobs but even thought our country is
in a "so-called" recession we still find 14 million of our dollars to give to Israel per day.I dont know about you but I find that very disturbing.I believe that america should learn how to take care of its own U.S. residents
before it gives out that kind of money to other countries.

I can think of alot of things that can be put to use with 14 million U.S. dollars right here in our own backyard
like Aids,Cancer,jobs,homeless,education for our young kids and a million other legitimate causes that would probly fill this page and 4 or 5 others.But we dont do that,instead we give it to the jews for god knows what
and we say "**** you" to our own residents.
Why dont I hear the same talk about "reparations" when it comes to the jews that I hear when it comes to african americans?.just like no one in my family had anything to do with slavery,the same goes with the jews.
I nor anyone in ny family had anything to do with hitlers plan for "The final solution" but my hard earned tax dollars are part of that 14 million $$$ a day sent to Israel,those monies are better used here in the U.S.A
than over in Israel or any other country for that matter.

The U.S.A really needs to get its priorities in order and start taking care of its own instead of people in other countries.We have the right as U.S. residents to be taken care of first before any other country and its people.

14 million dollars a day to Israel but we dont have money for jobs or the homeless,that's some very sick ****
and what's even more disturbing is that we go along with it like it's ok,if it were up to me Israel wouldn't get 1 penny from the U.S.A until our problems were taken care of first.

Criminal.

Let's see here...gotta post because it's something I believe.

1: I'm not a racist person. Period. I don't care what anyone did 100+ years ago for whatever reason...I just get to live in the world that's now been created with said problems.

I've gone to school with all kinds of people in Saudi Arabia at North Campus and Parents Cooperative School from every kind of race and class you can think of. WAY more diverse than ANY high school in the USA, I can guarantee you that.

In school, what do we learn? We learn the subjects taught by teachers and we learn disciplines and household stuff at home. What does this mean? This means that if someone's pissed off their entire life and they happen to procreate, they're going to teach their kids the SAME thing which leads to a bad attitude without any real reason as well as failing out of high school or barely passing only to go onto welfare because you don't want to work because you'd be reporting to a white person, etc etc. I've seen this happen countless times. I've worked right along side them taking out trash and washing dishes and yet they're pissed off because they've got to work? Where in the name of ****'s sake did that come from? Last I knew, people WORKED for a living. And then these people say I've been "given" all of my stuff? Screw that noise, I've been paying a car payment AND insurance since I was 15 and if some dumbass who thinks a country owes him/her a check just because some ancestor of theirs that they probably don't know anything about was held as a slave should get a free ride...sorry, not happening in my book.

It's parental as well as your peers. It's up to the people to make the decision what's right or wrong. At some point, every last loser out there has to be thinking "Man, is this right?" about their decision to be hateful, discontent, racist, etc etc. A black person can call another black person "nigga" or whatever with no negative retort or violence but a white person does that? Please, end of story. And no, you don't see white people calling each other 'crackas' ever day either. Get off the hypocritical bandwagon and look at everything again with new eyes. Work for a living, pay taxes JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE DOES, DON'T expect a free handout, and next thing you know, you too are working a white-collar job making above 10 bucks an hour living in a good house in a good neighborhood driving a good car and sending your two kids to a good school. And you won't be so hateful or bound to bullshit ties anymore.

Growing up in Augusta, Georgia where the black population is more than 50% of the entire city population, I've seen everything from one white person using welfare (and almost died of shame buying bread and milk at a gas station) to MANY black people abusing welfare as a system because they think the world owes them a favor when it's not even THEM that suffered based on the reason they're using welfare. How ****ing cheap is that? "Oh, my great grandparents were slaves so you should pay me money"....I'm sure your passed-on great-grandparents are rolling over in their graves for that one. I've seen 7+ black kids running around half-naked in a checkout line while their mothers (2 sep. women) in full decked out Nike/Adidas outfits w/ jewelry w/ nails done and hair done buying beer and lottery tickets and steak (steak, on welfare...funny). How backwards is that? I know lots of families (white, black, etc alike) that work their asses off and give EVERYTHING to their kids so that their raising is proper and correct. Not the other way around. You don't HAVE kids to get MORE money that you didn't even work for. Unfortunately, that's the way I've seen it worked. Time and time again. And then they wonder why there's distaste? The glaring looks? The "looked down" look? Please, it should come as no surprise.

And my tax money is going towards that. Fortunately, it's changing. Now you can't be on welfare w/o a reason and for a specific amount of time. Good. Make everyone work. It's not the end of the world and nobody owes ANYONE ANYTHING. Do I sound bitter? Better believe it, because I'm just a working white guy who's had money taken out for inappropriate reasons only to be abused for a failing system all for the sake of supporting the weak as well as being passed over twice for promotion all for keeping 'the peace' because the other person met the quota yet didn't meet any technical requirement of a unix sys-adm. Great...I got to clean up HER mess from three production crashes yet she didn't get fired like I would've gotten. And yes, I think it's weak for anyone to believe they should get a free ride. And what's even worse...I don't have a CHOICE at all. You do. Everyone does. Make America somewhere everyone wants to be, not the land where everyone tries to rip off everyone else. The minute this place becomes so bad that it's no longer free to any extent (and I'm not starting a holy war on that either), I'd rather take my chances back in Saudi Arabia...where the government rules all.

Dislcaimer: didn't mean to rant that long but it seems everyone has an opinion so there's mine. Having seen a lot of places, America's by far the best and for those that think it's not...try living in other countries. Hell, just visit for a week, you'll see how misguided THAT is.

if it was up to me Isreal would not get anything at all from the US. Not because its Isreal but because we don't owe them anything and we should be helping our own.

Come to think of it, it is up to me. come Nov. im for voting for a new america.

18 mil a day? Crimina1 where is your info coming from. Im not doubting it. id just like to read it for myself. id like to see the 'reason' for this.

Israeli Pac "donations " for election campaigns
On US AID to Israel...visit this


Edit: As far as the reason...who knows...

Quote:

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Congressional researchers have disclosed that between 1974 and 1989, $16.4 billion in U.S. military loans were converted to grants and that this was the understanding from the beginning. Indeed, all past U.S. loans to Israel have eventually been forgiven by Congress, which has undoubtedly helped Israel's often-touted claim that they have never defaulted on a U.S. government loan. U.S. policy since 1984 has been that economic assistance to Israel must equal or exceed Israel's annual debt repayment to the United States. Unlike other countries, which receive aid in quarterly installments, aid to Israel since 1982 has been given in a lump sum at the beginning of the fiscal year, leaving the U.S. government to borrow from future revenues. Israel even lends some of this money back through U.S. treasury bills and collects the additional interest.

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Vorlin I couldn't have said it better myself,you the man.I dont belive that anyone should get a free ride either.
Get a dam job and maybe you might make something of yourself and earn enough money to be able to provide for yourself and your family.Play lotto and maybe if your lucky you might hit it and then if you really belive in "reparations" you can split your winnings with the other people that want a free government ride
on the money tree.
I'm sick and tired of hearing african americans blame "The white man" for there position in life and how they
cant get anywhere because the so-called "white man" is holding them back.Well I say it's that attitude that's
holding you back not the white man but your frame of thinking.This is the U.S.A and if you want it bad enough
there is no better place to be but the good old U.S.A,kill that drama about white people keeping you down meanwhile your selling drugs in your community or are on welfare getting a free hand out of my tax dollars,kill that noise.Could it be you keeping yourself down by being on welfare and or selling drugs to your own people?. I see it everyday where I live at south bronx,N.Y.C, black men complaining about how the white man has them down meanwhile their selling drugs to there own people and anyone that will bye them but yet have the nerve to talk about slavery but what thier doing is a form of slavery itself in selling drugs.
I work very hard everyday in order to one day bye a house somewhere in the burbs so that my kids can grow up somewhere nice and not have to live through what I lived through.I dont blame anyone for anything when **** goes wrong but myself because I'm in control of my destiny not The "white man".

In this world you have to work for what you want unless your lucky enough to be born into a very rich family and then you still have to work to keep those riches or you might get find yourself very broke one day.

For arguments sake,lets just say that there is a conspiracy against Black people in america,well if that were
true and I was Black then that would tell me that I would just have to work that extra mile to make something
of myself not just sit back and throw blame because that would just be feeding into said conspiracy,I would
be helping "The white man" fullfill his plan.By selling drugs and being on welfare you are doing just that without any help from anyone.If you really want to be a drug dealer than do it the legal way and open up your own drug store and be merry but Please STOP the white man bullshit becasue the only person holding you down is yourself with the way that you think.Thier are so many ways to make money the legal
way these days that if you have to commit a crime to get paid then your IQ must be under 10.

My wifey just got a new job starting at 30k working from home from her computer and she only has a high school diploma she sits at home all day in her panties doing some form of billing,the point that I'm making is that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to do her job but imagine if she sat around all day blameing someone else for her misfortunes then she wouldn't get anywhere and would probly be one of those gimmie chicks
trying to find a man to take care of her,that's bullshit.There isn't anything like having your own ****,no hand outs.Instead of "reparations" for something you weren't even involved in you need to wake up and get your own.If if you know your history then you should know that the african government were the ones that sold slaves to other countries,they sold their own people through was was called "The slave coast"as a matter a fact they are to this day still selling their own people into slavery amongst african nations and this is 2002. So shoudn't african americans be asking the african government for reparations or am I missing something?.That's my rant.Thank you.

Criminal

Hey my people were enslaved for 400 years. Im not sueing them for a gagillion dollars. Its in the past. You cant always keep your mind on the past or youll never be able to make forward progresss.

Half my ancestry didn't own slaves during any time in the last couple of thousand years. We certainly didn't own any in this country. My paternal grandparents came from Italy in 1910. On my mothers side, my ancestors fought with the Union in the Civil War.

I think, and if this makes me sound racist...TOUGH....that the blacks are feeling threatened. Right now, they are the major minority. Hispanics, though, are catching up fast, and the blacks have competition for the free pie. White people aren't paying enough attention to them. If you notice, most of the attention now is focused on Hispanics.

Rather than sue the government that freed them, why aren't they going after the descendants of the plantation owners that enslaved their ancestors, the traders who sold those people, and the black tribes in Africa that caught them? Answer = Money, pure and simple.

If certain high ranking blacks, who stand to make billions if the bill succeeds while the rest get peanuts, are serious, get to the root of the problem. Sue the various African countries that the slaves came from. I doubt that would go far. Those countries would want an accounting. How many came from each country? What tribe captured and sold them to which trader? I guess it's easier to sue a soft touch like the United States Government while it's still wallowing in the aftermath of Bill and Hillary.

As for the Jews, we aren't the only nation paying to support Israel. Germany is doling out a hefty amount every year to keep that country afloat. Maybe in Germany's case that's only fair, but how much is enough? When should we all wave bye bye and tell Israel it's time to swim or sink and why should WE be paying? My father and all but one of my uncles fought in WW2. My father and two of my uncles were wounded, one disabled for his entire life. Isn't that enough?

I suggest that the Jews look toward Italy for their support. After all, were it not for the Romans, they might not have been in Germany. Were it not for the Romans, they would have remained in Palestine. If we're going to talk about reparations for offenses that happened decades ago, let's get to the root of it, at least as far as the Jews go. Rome drove them from Palestine. Rome took their land. Let them go after Rome. Maybe then I'd be required to do some serious geneological research. Might be a couple of millenia ago, my people did own a slave or two and being the understanding guy I am, I might feel a tiny bit of guilt -- but I doubt it.

I won't even get into the Native Americans.

Nth Man: I am glad that you are working and getting your degree. I believe this is very commendable. However, using one good example to refute a statistically accurate statement is as unfair as using some of the generalities being thown about in this thread.

Most of the White people I have known that were on welfare were not embarrassed by it. In fact when I worked in Gillette WY (where white trash outnumber all other races trash by about 50:1) I was asked to help a couple of these people to defraud the system. They would buy my groceries with their food stamps if I would pay them $1 for $2. When I turned them down they acted like I was being insulting rather than honest. Let's be fair here people, the welfare mentality hits every race. In fact one of the best things stated here is that it is, in many cases, generational in nature. If you grew up on welfare your chances of remaining on welfare are much higher, irregardless of race. Why throw race into a raceless equation. Percentage wise there are more African Americans on welfare. However, historically, African Americans have been forced into poorer areas, working lower paying jobs and having no recourse but to go on welfare when hard times hit. Many of today's third and fourth generation welfare families came from similar conditions, again regardless of their race. This sets up the generational cycle which leads to the current conditions today.

I do not accept that "Blacks are lazy (please note the intentional use of the term Black vs. African American to make a point)", I do accept though that people who are raised lazy tend to remain lazy. In most cases a good work ethic is taught not inherent. There are many exceptions, even within my own family there are those who are inclined to work hard and those of us who work hard because we were trained to do so (that's me, I am inherently lazy).

Back to the topic of reparations though. As I stated before, if it is an apology? fine that is acceptable to me. Money? I can see no way that the government could fairly distribute reparations, should distribute reparations, or even could fairly raise the money for reparations. While this may be a movement that goes farther than Jesse Jackson or the Rev. Al Sharpton it does seem strange that it has picked up steam at the same time that Jesse Jackson's trusts and charities have been hit by declining donations and scandal. Jesse needed a cause and seems to have found one. I do not think that most of the African Americans supporting this cause are doing it for political ends. I think they are probably sincere in feeling it is another step towards healing wounds. I cannot say the same for the leaders. I do not believe they want the wounds healed. Strife, contention, and racism are their bread and butter.

One brief note on Israel. I support aid to Israel. Why? Well for two reasons, one personal, one political. The personal one is that I am a Christian and I believe it is Biblical to support the nation of Israel. The political one is that I believe they are our first, best, weapon against the fundamentalist fanatics and terrorists that threaten us. Take the figure of the aid we sent them and then compare it to the cost of the Gulf War which only lasted a couple of months. With this money we buy military units, political influence, and intelligence gathering that we could not provide for ourselves at 100X the cost. I think our Return On Investment (ROI) makes Israel an excellent market to invest in.

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And the government would not be cutting every African American slave descendant a check. Instead, a commitee (probably the one heading up the reparations legislations) will hold the money in a trust, and claims will be made toward it. The idea has merit. And as long as it's carried out well, it should work fine.

http://usaweekend.com/02_issues/020...eparations.html

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I feel the need to repost this as some of you have either forgotten or not seen the link. It's a much better explaination into the whole issue, and has put it all in a much better perspective, at least for me. I was pretty outraged by all this talk of reparations, but when I read the article, I couldn't help but concede to their valid arguement. The way it sounds like it will be set up, even Jesse Jackson won't be able to get his grubby mits on it. It will go the deserving, the poor, the welfare families. If it works out as planned, then I'm all for it.

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Originally posted here by qwerty_smith
this whole thing has been blown way out of propoertion by people who would rather feel oppressed and leech off of society. those same people have the same job opportunities that i do, same opportunity for education. all they have to do is play the game.

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apologies for the dilatory response....
the same opportunities might not necessarily b true
amazon.com has sample pages from some of the books they list
take the opportunity for "savage inequalities" by j kozol

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...=3#reader-link

just because we r playing the same game doesnt mean the initial conditions r equal
the idee of reperations also invokes an archaeology into why these differences exist and whether these differences have existed for the past 400 years plus
and where education is a prerequisite for certain kinds of employment, those forms of employment wont necessarily b available to those lacking the education

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Originally posted here by TechieChick
Do they plan on a division of payments based on what percentage of your family (through marriage etc) was on American soil during that time in history or will it just be an across the board tax?

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i m not sure financial retributions r the way to go about solving problems
the issues arent addressed and the problems arent resolved
the only concern addressed is "how much money?" and "who gets how much?"
and if that is the intent then the definition of "reperation" must b elaborated upon

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I'm just so tired of the victim stance. I could be screaming about what my family lost during the war, the members that perished in the camps, am I? No, it was history. We learned from it and have moved on.

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who learned what?
refer to israel/palestine
and usa/vietnam
and shell oil and nigeria
and mexico/chiapas
etc and etc

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Originally posted here by SodaMoca5
I agree fully with the sentiment expressed here about reparations. I do not agree with them, I do not feel that we should be paying for sins and crimes committed over 130 years ago.

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how recent must the "sins and crimes" b in order to prosecute?
120 years?
129?
10?
2?
to paraphrase n chomsky, if the war crime laws were applied to usa'a foreign policies, then most (if not all) politicians, multinational executives, and military personnel would b incarcerated and/or hung (whatever the preferred form of punishment is these days)

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Originally posted here by TechieChick


I am not guilty by association and I refuse to accept that blame nor apologize for what happened over one hundred years ago. I will on the other hand, teach my children to know their history and to know that without knowing their history, it will be repeated and it is up to each and every one of us to not allow that to happen.
(snip)
I take pride in knowing where we've come from and fighting hard to guarantee that it will never happen again.

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i m not sure if this enthusiastic promise resembles mockery or sarcasm or....?
r u saying the history that u r trying to prevent isnt happening anymore?
again, refer to israel/palestine, shell/nigeria, usa/vietnam, etc
how r u "fighting hard to guarantee that it will never happen again"? how r u preventing economic exploitation in foreign countries? how r u preventing bureaucratic colonialism of "unclaimed" land (the imposition of the idee of "property")? or r u restricting your efforts to the neighbourhood directly adjacent to your physical existence? if so, please rent the film "mephisto" from 1980 or so.

implicit_lyrics I dont blame you for hiding behind a new account.

Publication Date: 1991
ISBN: 0-517-58221-X

Much has changed since 1989 my friend. Many millions of dollars have been dumped into this city and every other city in this country, for that matter.Do you really think it came from the welfare checks or the 7500 dollar saleries of the population of east saint louis.

It came from all the people in america. Not because of a sense of guilt. You can tell from most of the posts in this thread nobody feels guilty for what others have done. This was done because people care what happens to others. We want things to be right for everyone.

http://www.slfp.com/CNews070501.htm

http://www.slfp.com/052701City.htm

http://www.swi-news.com/E-STLN012301.htm

http://www.eslarp.uiuc.edu/la/LA341-...e/NewEgret.HTM

http://www.eslarp.uiuc.edu/

http://www.siue.edu/ESL/upward_bound/upward_bound.htm

http://www.icche.org/abstracts_02/EIU.htm

I could go on all night listing more sources if you like.

What do say we calulate how much money the gov has spent nation wide on these type of projects, tageting blacks, how much has come out of each and every working persons pocket and compare it to the reparations due. we can work out a payment plan and you can take your time paying back the differance. im not hard to get along with.

I was just being mean in my last statement, but i feel i have a right to. I was brought up in an inner city environment, much like the one discribed in kozol's book only this one was mostly white. i spare you the details. lets just say it got nuked during the war on poverty just to get rid of it, without any plans to rebuild. who do i sue? (like id even think of it) nobody did anything to help us, their are no agencies for poor whites. How dare anybody say "my people" oppressed anyone.

the only color guilty of oppression is green, and the sooner you realize that, the sooner we can all work together to stop it.

How many people of every race, creed and color died in this country, from lack of proper medical treatment because they didn't have the money:

120 days ago?
129?
10?
2?

We see great responses on this thread and we agree with alot of them.

We want to point out another factor to consider besides the

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black africans rounded up slaves. black africans put those same "brothers" on the boat in shackles and treated them like animals. black africans sold those same "brothers" to white men when they arrived in MANY places. america was not the only place that had slaves. and not all slaves were black.

qwerty_smith

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Consider this excerpt taken out of the American History text: America, Tindall/Shi Pg72

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Slavery, long a dying institution in Europe, evolved in the Chesapeake after 1619, when a Dutch vessel dropped off twenty Africans in Jamestown.

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Our opinion is that the American with African descendant culture should cease their protests and affirmative action cases against the grandchildren and now the great grandchildren of the profanation that was done to their ancestry in the name of lazyness for fat colonial land owners.

As you see, America no longer wallows in the filth of subjegation just as England no longer holds Bondsmen to work their farms.

As it is anyway, Africans have subjegated rival tribes in their homeland just as the American Indian subjegated rival indian tribes, though the slaves tended to get adopted into the indian tribe later.

We consider this a dry and overly stale subject that the American African overtax utterly.

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Originally posted here by Tedob1

. You can tell from most of the posts in this thread nobody feels guilty for what others have done. This was done because people care what happens to others. We want things to be right for everyone.

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I think that about sums up where we are all coming from. My prior posts in this thread could have very easily been misunderstood. There are many historical examples of injustice. African americans do not have a monopoly on suffering. That was the point I was trying to bring out.
Thier continuous whining really makes me ill,just as a whining child would. I don't hate the said child when they act thus........I just ignore and then REPROVE them.

Hi,
I just wonder which government would be responsible for making an apology and reparations? The Confederate Government, which no longer exists is the one that represented the slaveowners. The present Federal government is the one that was fighting to (among other things), free the slaves. So it seems the real apology and reparations would have to come from a government that no longer exists.

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Originally posted here by Tedob1
Nth Man the companies that exploited the black people are still exploiting us all, we shouldn't be devided on this. Its omly getting worse and seperating the common people into factions only gives them strength.

Its never really been the whites against the blacks, its really been the rich against the poor and any way they can keep someone down has allways been a gain to them. If they can keep a group un-educated and at odds with others so they can't get the big picture, so much the better.

The poor white, prior to the beginning of the 20th century, was forced to work double shifts plus, in inhuman conditions, at a wage that couldnt pay the rent for the rooms they had to rent from the company they worked for. They were forced to buy food from the company store. they were kept in debt so they couldn't leave. In 1911+- their were riots in the streets so choldren under 16 wern't forced to work more than 16 hours a day. people, white people were being oppressed. its not a race thing its a power thing. Those who have, want more, and they don't care who they have to hurt to get it. the more they can devide us, the less the truth is known.

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yes, money begets slavery
again, amazon.com excerpts:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...=2#reader-link

strike by jeremy brecher
a partial history of strikes and the sentiments surrounding the strikers
there were many instances where white strikers resisted becoming a union with the black strikers even though they were striking for the same demands
striking against business is one aspect of it
striking for race relations is another aspect of it
striking for education is another aspect of it
striking for the incestual relationship between military and business is another aspect of it
striking for the relations people have between each other is another aspect of it
striking for the relation between people and land is another aspect

"they" divide us, but we r they as well
there r many aspects for which to divide ourselves, and u may prefer to value the relationship between business and people moreso than the relationship between people and the land, while others dont share that sentiment and u may not share theirs

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Originally posted here by The Old Man
Well here's how i see it: My ancestors did not own, manage, or know any slaves, nor did they benefit in any way from those who may have. I do not own stock in any pre-civil war company nor do i benefit from one nor can i buy *anything* at a lower price than anybody else can. I do not have any $$ coming from any company who even existed before the Civil War but i do have some ancestors who fought and either died or were wounded grossly fighting for the North, and got exactly diddly for their efforts and wounds, limping through the rest of their painful lives trying to make a living for their families. I don't owe anybody anything nor do i owe any of thier ancestors anything, period. I work my a$$ off everyday, come home with sweat-rivulets washing little ditches down the dirt on my face, and i don't ask anybody to pay me for what my ancestors lost fighting for the cause of freedom for this country in the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, WWI, WW2, and my own loss of civilian time and personal education and progress during Viet Nam. If my Congressmen or Senators vote any of my tax money for "reparations" past what they already spend on social programs for the disadvantaged of every possible description, he's gonna know he ain't got my vote next time around, and he can take my name off his mailing list. That's the way I see it, Bubba.

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if reperations involved me i would b very upset if someone paid me off 4 the past
hush money
money is the worst apology u can give someone
yet the common thread in all these posts is how everyone is upset over the thought of losing money
if reperations didnt involve the rumor of money i doubt thered b a single post in this thread
interesting value system
if y'all were concerned about money so much post to the thread regarding the avant-garde accounting techniques of businesses and government such as enron, worldcomm, martha stewart, arthur andersen, dick cheney, jean chretien, george bush, ronald wilson reagan (666), etc and those r the names u probably can recognize in a police line-up
goto:
http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/200...omo/index.html

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Originally posted here by allenb1963
Whats really cool is what you would see if you looked back along the generational lines of my family. There's an American Indian back there, along with a WWI vet, a Revolutionary War soldier, even a UNION soldier. So lets add this up...one of my ancestors got screwed same as you, one fought to help birth this country, one fought to free YOUR ancestors, and one fought to defend the freedoms of this and several other countries. Now would you care to enlighten me as to how I OWE YOU forty acres and a mule and just exactly what it is I'm guilty of?

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reperations doesnt necessarily refer to our individual actions of the present
it isnt about how YOU or I owe any one anything
it is about the actions of the past and how they relate to the present
we can all puppet the words "everyone is equal" but we havent elaborated on the word "equality" in order to lessen the confusion as to what we r referring to
it can b one thing to "free a slave" and then send them on their way without land or property or the knowledge required for survival and self-sustenance
and if u look at it, none of those attributes i just listed have really yet to b offered in a reperational sense

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Originally posted here by JP

Uhm, returns on that type of investment also include your right to live in this country without having to fear additional radical Muslim fundamentalist groups obtaining nuclear capabilities and blowing the **** out of you and everyone within a several mile radius of you.

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uhm, not quite as fear inducing as the radical american fundamentalist groups obtaining nuclear capabilities and blowing the **** out of everyone within a several mile radius

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Originally posted here by g0t r00t

And another thing, to those who think that everything is equal now, you really need to wake up. I can tell you from experience, that I have to work twice as hard as a white man to get the same things. And it's not just African-Americans, it's women, hispanics and other minorities. My point is that, some people think that when African-Americans complain about unfair treatment, they are just being lazy. While that might be true with some people, don't hold all of us to that standard. A lot of us are being unfairly treated.

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white males have a unique superpower that allows them the ability to exonerate themselves
ask any non white males to testify this

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Originally posted here by DarkGuardian
And I think many people don't understand the full issue. Yes, an apology is owed, and I'll be the first to make it. I have no idea if my family owned slaves, but I don't think so. And the American Government should apologize. I mean, how hard is it?

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very hard apparently
http://www.commondreams.org/views/112500-102.htm

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Originally posted here by Rev Jazzman


We have a black history month, but I have been threatened with a school suspention for even suggesting a white history month. Go Figure!

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because the other eleven months celebrate white history
you were proposing a tautology

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Originally posted here by fourdc
Ok. The way I see this is:

The US government:

who did not capture slaves (other African tribes did)
who did not transport slaves ( private companies mostly from Europe did)
who did not own slaves (private individuals did)
who outlawed the practice and had a civil war over it
now has to pay reparations over it?

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the practice of slave trade was embraced b4 it was outlawed
segregation was embraced up until 50 years ago b4 twas outlawed
the president and members of government kept slaves
didnt thomas jefferson have slaves? didnt he have children begotten by one of his female slaves? i cant quite recall the facts....

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Trace the companies and individuals responsible for your plight, go after them.
Otherwise, it's deep pocket legislation, kinda like suing fast food restaraunts for supersizing your lunch.

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the companies from way back might not even exist any more, what 2 do in that scenario?
the ties between business and giovernment are tight
look at enron and bush/cheney receiving advice for the government's energy policy
look at cheney and halliburton
go here for that one:
http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/200...omo/index.html
look at shell/nigeria

Geez,

Maybe I should sue the United Kingdom because they kicked my family and other French people out of the Maritime provinces of Canada in the 1800s. Maybe I should sue England because a lot of my relatives died in battles for Scottish independence.

At what point do you say that was then, this is now and just move on.

I can't figure out why my tax dollars are going to reparations, my ancestors didn't enslave or profit from slaving. Being a white male, I'm not allowed to blame anyone for my woes, nor do I. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and start moving to your goal.

implicit_lyrics:

You speak as if “human rights” are a god given gift since the first man walked the earth.

They are not.

You say look for people to blame because your grandfather or great-grandfather didn’t have something that the rest of the world had. The rest of the world never had what you speak of.

It didn’t exist until today.

Ive heard it said that ancient Greece was the high point of civilization. Why because the allowed for new ideas or they accepted homosexuality, but even there they didn’t embrace Human Rights. They thought is just the way of the world to own slaves or make women subservient. Too them it was just the way it was meant to be. The constitution of the united states says that all men are created equal. Human Rights goes far beyond that and says that every human being has rights and shall keep them.

It never existed before. It is not a god given right. Its been taken and claimed by human beings in our life time. It really is a brand new concept still in its infancy. There’s no promise it will survive to maturity. It must be allowed to grow. It must be nurtured and protected. We all must work to make it happen.

Get your head out of history’s ass, and join the 21st century.

First off any slave familys brought to this country before July 4 1785, not our problem. Take it up with England. Secondly how long is long enough how longe before it just becomes a part of history and we just say look it happend it sucked but we've moved past it. The jews have been placated for years, and they were slaves to Egypt, where's there reperations? A stone is a lot heavier than cotton. And almost every person here starts there phrase with I'm not racist, bullshit everyone has a predudice. And if you say you don't i'm calling you a liar. Whether it be "I don't like to sit next to old people" or "kids are ruining the area" or "Move it fatty" or "I don't like gays." 1 predudice shouldn't be held any higher or lower than another one.

Quick comment - I read a good line somewhere else. How can the Gov. pay reparations when the tax payer base that makes up the revenues for the Gov. includes nationalities that weren't present back in the days of slavery ? IE, Latin American, Asian American, Middle Eastern American or any other * American that wasn't present or has yet to be defined into a catagory, even though by definition in a melting pot there would be no catagories. Just my humble point.