Printable View
Wow well said Web Carnage,don't think I like the idea of being ****ed in the ass with umbrellas and monkeys,but overall was a damn good rant.I just hope if we're Beta version humans we're not being made by Megasoft owned by Pearly Gates.If so I bet God had to pay out the ass to by however many billions of us there are.I would have considered myself ripped off if I payed for some of the people out there.I guess that's what you get when you mess with bleeding edge stuff huh?
Well, I believe there's just one god, but that we just have different ways of worshipping him, but in what's really important everything is the same, we just have to have blind faith in him and love him above all.
I deeply disagree with some religions that attack others, I think that anyone is in his right to believe in what he wants, I don't think some religious fanatics have the right to kill someone just because they disagree with him.
Sincerely
Plclp10
Acidreign
You dont believe that there is a god because you dont believe in what's in a book? Like I said in my first post here--man is faluable and man did write the bible. I think there's a lot of horse s**t in the bible personally, but I don't care. There are also a lot of excellent lessons to be learned from the bible or any holy book. People need to realize that the reason why man wrote their holy books was to attempt to give guidance (and maybe enligten an individual), not to control the masses. If you think about it, any piece of work meant to make people think about what they do could be considered a way to control the masses. OH S**T I'M DOING IT NOW!! :p
Oddly enough, I feel as though this post from the 'Hitler' thread is most appropriate here:
Just my $.02.Quote:
Originally posted here by roswell1329
You believe that a god would hold me accountable for not choosing to acknowledge him? If this was a god that is supposed to be my creator that truly understood my origins, my upbringing, my education, he would understand that believing in him is not an option for me. Therefore, I'm left with the idea: If there truly is a god, why doesn't he want me to believe in him? Trust me, there have been MANY times when I would have liked to have been a part of some "bigger picture", to believe that there is an independent institution (protected by law, even) that can offer me enlightentment, wisdom, and peace. That there is some higher being looking out for me, or that has some big plan for me, but to do so would force me to be untrue to myself. It's not a matter of just "showing a little faith". I have no faith to give. There is no choice for me to believe in any god, let alone a specific god for a specific religion.
I'm not trying to be difficult, rude, or condescending. I'm happy for those who have found comfort in faith. I feel they need to do whatever it takes to live a happy, fulfilling life. Just as I have found comfort in my lack of faith. [/b]
You know what.Life's lessons can't be learned through a book.They're learned through time and experience.You know what's wrong or right,so why do you need a book to teach you lessons?
I agree with you gghornet. You don't NEED a book to teach you. Life has a nice way of teaching you lessons and reinforcing them (another little odd quark in life that gives me reason for believing that there is a god). It is nice, however, to learn from the knowledge of people who have dedicated their lives to spirituality.
Also, I believe the writings in holy books are very inspirational. This can provoke a person into changing instead of the whole "It would be nice to live that way, but it's just too much work" While learning lessons in life sometimes people operate at such a surface level that they don't even notice what is really a lesson.
Hi,Quote:
Originally posted here by gghornet
You know what.Life's lessons can't be learned through a book.They're learned through time and experience.You know what's wrong or right,so why do you need a book to teach you lessons?
I think I understand what you're saying, but I disagree. In the case of the Bible, we do need it. God uses the Bible to apeak to us, but the Bible is not God. God can be experienced outside the Bible. However, the Bible is needed because it contains God's revealed will. Here's how I feel. I derive the jist of what I'm about to say from a passage in a C.S. Lewis book (Mere Christianity, I think). Let's say I want to go to New York City. So I get a map and I study it. Ok, if by studying the map and learning the way to New York City I get the idea that I really don't need to go there to know what New York is like, then I am deceived. The dot on the map is not New York City. Nothing will take the place of being there. However, having the map will save me a lot of trouble when I go to New York for real. It can save me a lot of dead ends and wrong turns.
Ok, God is not the Bible. But the Bible tells us what we need to have a relationship with and experience God. It can save us a lot of trouble if we really want to find Him.
I have good morals, good ethics, rarely cheat, or take advantage of people. Whenever I liter I feel guilty and always end up throwing trash away where it's proper. I've never killed, seriously hurt (mentally or physically) anybody ever in my life - and I don't intend to. When I "grow up" I'd like to be a biogenetical engineer, become a doctor, ...I'd like to help people. I'm a very generous person (too generous for my own good...gets me into trouble sometimes), and I rarely lie.Quote:
Hi,
I think I understand what you're saying, but I disagree. In the case of the Bible, we do need it. God uses the Bible to apeak to us, but the Bible is not God. God can be experienced outside the Bible. However, the Bible is needed because it contains God's revealed will. Here's how I feel. I derive the jist of what I'm about to say from a passage in a C.S. Lewis book (Mere Christianity, I think). Let's say I want to go to New York City. So I get a map and I study it. Ok, if by studying the map and learning the way to New York City I get the idea that I really don't need to go there to know what New York is like, then I am deceived. The dot on the map is not New York City. Nothing will take the place of being there. However, having the map will save me a lot of trouble when I go to New York for real. It can save me a lot of dead ends and wrong turns.
Ok, God is not the Bible. But the Bible tells us what we need to have a relationship with and experience God. It can save us a lot of trouble if we really want to find Him.
I respect others for who they are and what they have, and rarely judge people for the worst. I'm not conceited, obnoxious, obstreporous, or fanatic - rather a realist, a dangerously sane person living in a seriously pessemistic world.
[P.S. - I have never fully read any holy book before in my life. And for the books/chapters I have read, I find them totally unrelated to God in any way - simply a way to get people under control, or to set up as a type of government keeping people from killing each other off simply because a few sheep happened to get themselves free and the herder wants somebody to blame...]
"I have good morals, good ethics, rarely cheat, or take advantage of people. Whenever I liter I feel guilty and always end up throwing trash away where it's proper. I've never killed, seriously hurt (mentally or physically) anybody ever in my life - and I don't intend to. When I "grow up" I'd like to be a biogenetical engineer, become a doctor, ...I'd like to help people. I'm a very generous person (too generous for my own good...gets me into trouble sometimes), and I rarely lie.
I respect others for who they are and what they have, and rarely judge people for the worst. I'm not conceited, obnoxious, obstreporous, or fanatic - rather a realist, a dangerously sane person living in a seriously pessemistic world.
[P.S. - I have never fully read any holy book before in my life. And for the books/chapters I have read, I find them totally unrelated to God in any way - simply a way to get people under control, or to set up as a type of government keeping people from killing each other off simply because a few sheep happened to get themselves free and the herder wants somebody to blame...]"
I don't doubt that for the most part, you have good behavior. The Bible is not a book of ethics or good morals. It is the story of how God created humankind, and how God made a way for humankind to be redeemed and enjoy a relationship with Himself. You say you "rarely lie" and "rarely cheat." I take this to mean you have cheated and you have lied. Unless we are perfect (And we aren't) any sin is enough to keep us from heaven. Pretty good is not good enough. Salvation is not by works. It is by grace, and it comes only through a relationship with Jesus Christ. The Bible is the story of how God made a way for us to be forgiven and have a relationship with God. The Bible lays out standards of behavior for the purpose of showing us our sin, and showing us what it means to "Love God with all our heart and soul and mind, and to love our neighbor as ourselves." If we have real faith in God, and through faith surrender our lives to Him, our behavior will be right.
Is "right" behavior "perfect" behavior?...Quote:
our behavior will be right
Good question. Maybe and maybe not. Let me explain. Our "outer" behavior can be influenced by many things. Here's an example I remember reading from a book called "Freedom in Christ" by a guy named, Bill Counts. It's not verbatim, but here's the just of it. Let's say I work at a bank. I handle large sums of money every day. One day the thought goes through my head, "Wow, wouldn't it be nice to have some of this? I could buy that nice vacation home I've been wanting. If only I could figure out how to take some of this money without getting caught. Maybe I could take a little at a time, and somehow fix the records to cover it up." But I start thinking to myself: "No, I would get caught. My reputation would be ruined. I would lose my job. I would go to jail. So, I'm not going to steal." So, I don't steal. Outwardly I am an honest person. No human can look into my heart and mind and know my motives and intentions. To all appearances ("appearances" is the key word here), I am an honest, law abiding person. But what is the real reason for my honesty? Fear of consequences, isn't it? If the restraints were removed, and I could get away with the theft without getting caught, I would do it. Someone once said, "Character is what we do when no one else is around." The only thing keeping me honest is fear of what might happen. So, we can have "right" behavior but wrong motives and intentions in our heart.Quote:
But God is interested in our hearts. I Samuel 16:7b says, "Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks upon the heart." "Right" behavior flows from a "right" heart. That is, a heart that has been regenerated by God's Spirit and is living in faith and in submission to God's revealed will. Real morality comes when we see obeying God as a greater joy than disobeying him (This comes from a minister named John Piper. Check out his web site, www.desiringGod.com).
God's standards of behavior are a lot tougher than we think (Read Matthew chapters 5-7 sometime). It isn't just our outer action but our inner attitude God judges. For example, we may not commit adultery physically, but do we lust after other people in our minds and our hearts? Then, we have sinned. We may not kill anyone bodily, but do we hate anyone enough to "want" to kill them? If we get that angry with another person, we have already murdered them in our hearts. Does this make sense?
But here is where I think your question comes from: "Isn't it ok, if I do the right thing most of the time? What if I'm 95 percent good and only 5 percent bad? Can't God grade on the curve? I am more moral than many people. Isn't "pretty good" good enough?
No. If we want to be right with God by "works," that is, our own self-generated goodness, we have to have 100% correct behavior, motives and intentions for 100% of our lives. And that is impossible (in our own strength).
That's why God's solution for our sin problem is so important. Christ died to pay the penalty for our sins (eternal separation from God in Hell). When we place our faith in Christ, his perfect record and perfomance are "credited" to our account. We become as "right" with God as Jesus his Son is, even though we may sin.
But that's not all. God Himself, the Holy Spirit, comes to live in our bodies. Paul the apostle says, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." God's Spirit, when we depend on Him, gives us the power not to sin. Through God's Spirit, we can overcome any sin that enslaves us.
If you NEED a book to tell you not to decapitate me and put my head on a pike, what does that say about you? I know you aren't the type that would do that, I'm just being dramatic, but my point is, if you need a the bible and the threat of eternal suffering to be a good person, do you really belong in heaven? I study the bible, not because I think I could learn how to live from it, but because it is a good book. It has everything, murder, deceit, redemtion, sex, intrigue... but then again, so do alot of books, so do alot of movies, I hate to think what the world would be like in 2000 years if people followed Steven King as adamantly as they follow the bible. or JRR Tolkein, I mean, if it were religion that halflings and dragons were real and a story that a talking snake got adam and eve kicked out of eden, would we know the difference? If it were religion that a magical ring could make you invisible and a story that a grail could give you eternal life, would we be able to tell the difference. I enjoy the bible, as a book, and nothing more.Quote:
Originally posted here by preacherman481
In the case of the Bible, we do need it. God uses the Bible to apeak to us, but the Bible is not God. God can be experienced outside the Bible. However, the Bible is needed because it contains God's revealed will. Here's how I feel. I derive the jist of what I'm about to say from a passage in a C.S. Lewis book (Mere Christianity, I think). Let's say I want to go to New York City. So I get a map and I study it. Ok, if by studying the map and learning the way to New York City I get the idea that I really don't need to go there to know what New York is like, then I am deceived. The dot on the map is not New York City. Nothing will take the place of being there. However, having the map will save me a lot of trouble when I go to New York for real. It can save me a lot of dead ends and wrong turns.
"If you NEED a book to tell you not to decapitate me and put my head on a pike, what does that say about you? I know you aren't the type that would do that, I'm just being dramatic, but my point is, if you need a the bible and the threat of eternal suffering to be a good person, do you really belong in heaven? I study the bible, not because I think I could learn how to live from it, but because it is a good book."
Hi,
Points well taken. But I'm not saying that apart from the Bible we don't have moral guidelines and try to act in ethical ways. God built into the human race the capacity for conscience. We seem to instinctively know that some things are good and some are bad. But the conscience depends on "programming" if you will, from parents and culture. And just as bad programming in a computer results in bad output, so bad programming from parents and culture can result in faulty morals. Hence, it's possible a person raised as a Nazi might actually feel guilty in being kind to a Jewish person. So conscience is not enough. Therefore, God made His will known to us in the Scriptures, and most clearly in the incarnation of his Son Jesus Christ. The Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, Paul's description of love in I Corinthians 13 all help us to see what God wants more clearly. But that is only part of the story.
I guess what I really want to say is that the Bible is not an end in itself. It points us to God who wants a relationship with us. Yes, it contains moral teachings, but these just tell us and help us know what it means to "love God and neighbor." If you love God and your neighbor, you don't kill them, commit adultery with their wives, steal from them, etc. But more than anything, the Bible points to the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ. The Old Testament fortells and foreshadows his work of redemption on the Cross. The New Testament tells us how it was accomplished, and it tells us of His eventual return to earth for his people.
Morality is not an end in itself. It is the result of a life surrendered to God and lived in faith. It's the natural by product of a vital relationship with God. We receive joy when we obey God by faith.