When I got my newest PC, it came with an integrated video setup....i810 anyhow, I installed my external video card and now I just run dual display. When handed lemons..... :)
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When I got my newest PC, it came with an integrated video setup....i810 anyhow, I installed my external video card and now I just run dual display. When handed lemons..... :)
Throw them away and get some apples... :) Joke, joke, joke...Quote:
When handed lemons.....:)
That's a neat trick man. I guess as long as you ensure you have an AGP card on your board and you can shut off the integrated card if you want through the BIOS then you have the best of both worlds. Yep, until the integrated device goes bad... :)
Guidance...
Surely if you are going to go out and buy new hard ware you would check that your computer supports it, would you buy a car and go to a petrol station to fill up without knowing what petrol it takes a pretty crap anology i know but if you do buy a computer from a shop it will say if it has intergrated graphics/sound/moden/nic etc or not, personally once i seen that, (not that i would buy a computer from a shop anyway) I would ask if it has an AGP slot and how many spare PCI slots has it got.
Aslong as it says "on the box" that it has on-board graphics etc I think that it is a very good idea, you can save 100's of £'s with onboard stuff, all be it the machine will not be as good but if thats what your worried about you wouldnt buy a machine with on board stuff.
You get what you pay for at the end of the day chaps, you can't moan afterwards!
Just in case anyone was wondering, I have fixed this all up. I went to the store and had the guy look at it and it was just a misunderstanding. The thing has support for PCI and thats what the card was but I wanted to use the AGP slot, so I took the card and exchanged it for a new one. The old one was nice with 64 MBs but I paid an extra 20 dollars and got an Nividia Ge-Force FX 5200 with 128 MBs ;)
Well, that's one way to go about it gore... But it doesn't solve the main issue here, which is the fact that, as you managed to put very well, people are being "bent over" way too often.
The problem, in my opinion, doesn't only lie in the mboards with embedded components. An office computer that only exists so that a secretary can type emails and play solitare on it, would most likely have everything simplified and embedded. Rightfully so, as that does save you a bunch of money. Immagine a bank that owns 1000 computers, where they would need to spring for an AGP card, PCI sound card, PCI modem, PCI LAN card etc. for each one...
The real issue is with the computer stores and the wannabe salesmen that too often work in them. ANY person selling computers should as a senior lady buying a comp in late December if they're giving it to a kid. If they are, that kid (or, hopefully getting a new comp and all, me... ;) ) definitely needs a decent AGP video card. My lil' cousin, for example, actually got a motherboard with an embedded VC, and no AGP slot whatsoever. That's 200$ wasted right there, since he obviously had to get a decent board and AGP in a matter of days.
Secondly, embedding as such sucks. Hardware evolves way too fast for me to buy a new computer every time my old one gets a bit too slow for my taste. With individual components, you can customize what you have, and upgrade individual components rationally, so that you always have a hardware setup that can facilitate your needs and wishes.
There. And now I'm off to learn the (luckily) meesly 150$ that will get me a better Nvidia AGP, so that I don't need to buy a whole new comp.
P.S.: Just like my mom never needed to know which carburators her car has, she doesn't need to know which video card is in her comp. She should be able to just tell the salesman what she uses the comp for and get a setup that works fine for her, and hopefully, makes upgrades possible, so the computer won't be obsolete in 6 months.
Heh, you tell them your a power user and theyll send you over too the Alienware section. I still think Alienwares rock but they are expensive. This 128 MB Nvidia card I put in last night was 99 dollars. I think it was a great price, it's 128 MBs, and the only game I play is UT. So it works great for me.Quote:
Originally posted here by Fenka
Well, that's one way to go about it gore... But it doesn't solve the main issue here, which is the fact that, as you managed to put very well, people are being "bent over" way too often.
The problem, in my opinion, doesn't only lie in the mboards with embedded components. An office computer that only exists so that a secretary can type emails and play solitare on it, would most likely have everything simplified and embedded. Rightfully so, as that does save you a bunch of money. Immagine a bank that owns 1000 computers, where they would need to spring for an AGP card, PCI sound card, PCI modem, PCI LAN card etc. for each one...
The real issue is with the computer stores and the wannabe salesmen that too often work in them. ANY person selling computers should as a senior lady buying a comp in late December if they're giving it to a kid. If they are, that kid (or, hopefully getting a new comp and all, me... ;) ) definitely needs a decent AGP video card. My lil' cousin, for example, actually got a motherboard with an embedded VC, and no AGP slot whatsoever. That's 200$ wasted right there, since he obviously had to get a decent board and AGP in a matter of days.
Secondly, embedding as such sucks. Hardware evolves way too fast for me to buy a new computer every time my old one gets a bit too slow for my taste. With individual components, you can customize what you have, and upgrade individual components rationally, so that you always have a hardware setup that can facilitate your needs and wishes.
There. And now I'm off to learn the (luckily) meesly 150$ that will get me a better Nvidia AGP, so that I don't need to buy a whole new comp.
P.S.: Just like my mom never needed to know which carburators her car has, she doesn't need to know which video card is in her comp. She should be able to just tell the salesman what she uses the comp for and get a setup that works fine for her, and hopefully, makes upgrades possible, so the computer won't be obsolete in 6 months.
For average users in things they really usually dont care about whats inside. Just like your Mom prolly doesnt want a GTO Judge with a 502 in it like I do. I like big engines and bigger computers lol.
Well, it's just plain apalling if you ask me. Just about anyone I know who bought a comp without consulting a friend who knows a bit about hardware got shafted. And by that I mean they sold him obsolete junk for the price that'll usually get you a kickass machine. Even worse, they do it so that you think they're doing you a favor. "Discount systems" are a prime example. For instance, who the hell can live with a 20GB HDD today? Yet most so-called discount package deals still offer 20 or 40 GB HDDs. I think we should line them all up in front of a wall one day and bend them over. ;)
Fenka, I think the problem might be that you are a spoilt little rich people's brat?
How do you compute the $200 wasted?.............I doubt if those MoBos cost more than $50?Quote:
The real issue is with the computer stores and the wannabe salesmen that too often work in them. ANY person selling computers should as a senior lady buying a comp in late December if they're giving it to a kid. If they are, that kid (or, hopefully getting a new comp and all, me... ) definitely needs a decent AGP video card. My lil' cousin, for example, actually got a motherboard with an embedded VC, and no AGP slot whatsoever. That's 200$ wasted right there, since he obviously had to get a decent board and AGP in a matter of days.
" he obviously had to get a decent board and AGP in a matter of days"
OOOOOOOOOOOOOO! diddums :rolleyes:
He wants to play gamey poohs....................well........get a life!
All game manufacturers employ very intelligent and professional people to assess the marketability of their products. If it will only run on a top of the range box, with a $200+ video card, and all the rest that goes with that, then it is not going to sell many copies. This means the company going broke, and they don't want to do that now, do they? That is why I estimate that most games will run on a 533Mhz PIII and a 32Mb PCI videocard. I am prepared to test that, and recant if I am proven wrong.
You are just one of these pathetic types who wants "bragging rights"??? You actually know jack sh1t about computers, and if you continue in your ways you never will.
A lot of kids have decent, hard working parents, who cannot afford the expensive stuff, to them a matter of 20 or 30 dollars may mean him/her having a PC or not.........particularly if he/she has siblings.
You seem to be stuck on one note my son "me, me, me"?
I do not normally "have a go", but I the case of your arrogant post I am more than willing to make an exception.
I wish you well, you will certainly need it in later life.
*sigh*
Well, please do. 2 typical titles I practically dare you to test:
- Republic: The revolution
- Ghost Recon
I'd be amazed if they start up at all.
Secondly... I've spent most of my youth on education and learning, so that I am now able to provide for myself. This is no 13-year old you're talking to. Mommy and Daddy have nothing to do with my thread. What I was bitching about, if you missed my point, was the poor service that the salespeople offer, caring more about the extra buck or two than about figuring out what teh user of the comp is going to need. And even if that is only to play graphically demanding games, that is the customer's prerogative.
I was talking about teh abuse of the "integrated bullshit" to misinform the potential customers and literally mislead then when they're buying a comp. Liek I also said (2 posts above my last), such MBs are perfect for office and school use. They are by no means suitable for someone who wants more though.
It somehow compares to a salesman selling you a lorry, when you're looking for a vehicle to drive to and from work. The fact that you don't know anything about cars shouldn't be an excuse for them to rip you off.
Fenka
You might help yourself if your profile was more informative?
You might also help yourself if you bothered to read through a thread..........this one is about MoBos with integrated components......that is sound, video and network/internet connctivity.
I looked at the two games you suggested Ghost Recon says it needs 16Mb of video memory and Republic: The Revolution requires 32Mb.
Almost any integrated package you get these days will support this.
Ghost wants a PII 450 or better, Republic suggests a PIII 800, so the latter is much more sophisticated. However I would say that a $50 MoBo with 64 Mb of shared video memory will probably do the job and you could use a Duron 1.3Ghz processor. Typical of a bottom end integrated product?
You complain about 20 Gb hard drives..............I have not managed to fill one yet? If young people only have basic equipment, they learn asset management? I will admit that I do not build anything serious these days without 120Gb RAID1, but that is just me.
This PC has 2.1 and 6.4 drives and is no way near full.
I will gladly agree with you about salespersons in computer stores. You have certainly had the same experience as many of us, and are as outraged as us all. But the thread that Gore started was not about them, it was about integrated solutions per se.
Good Luck
Man and I thought I might get lucky and be the first smart ass.Quote:
Yes I think its ok, I dont do anything but play pong anyway, they can bend me over all they want as long as pong works.
But setting that thought aside, I totally agree with you people about the fact that integrated hardcare can be a real pain in the ass. I liked the good old days when integrated stuff first came out, because typically you could turn it off in BIOS, these days you are just screwed. I have the same horror stories with trying to upgrade a Compaq computer I have. They aren't special computers, but I wanted to turn it into a dedicated gaming server which didn't need to have much special hardware to it besides a 32MB video card, which I thought I could just throw in a PCI GeForce something or other. Man did that and BAM, computer won't boot until I remove the card. No option to turn the onboard stuff off, nothing, and it won't let me use anything I added. Bastards, I think personally that is BS. Then again maybe that's why they are putting the prices of the computers down these days. Becuase you can't upgrade them, they are perfect just for people who want to sit and use them for web surfing and writting papers... maybe even a little light gaming or something. Who knows...
Just my 2 cents...
~AciD
Well Gore, there are two sides to this coin. As a system builder, I make the integration choice for my customers based on two criteria...their level of knowledge AND their potential to learn. For the smart ones who are trying to save some bucks, I'll order an "integrated" board with plenty of expansion room so they won't be bitching when they crack open the case. I also make sure a tag with my phone number is on the inside of the case cause 9 times out of 10 they are gonna call me with BIOS questions. If they are prepared to go all out on the initial build, then screw the integration...who needs low quality redundancy, right?
On the other hand you have folks like my 70 yr. old mother who wants a computer to surf, email and play solitaire. I don't see her playing Unreal Tournament or wanting to crank up any AC/DC, so a basic integrated board works fine for her and those of a similar computing disposition. Same story holds true for the office machines I deal with....none of the rich doctors or lawyers want killer systems built for their networks UNLESS it's the one that goes in THEIR office...in which case they usually want it built to the gills.
I guess I can sum it up by saying that integrated systems are a godsend for my (cheap-assed) idiot customers (no Mom, I'm not talking about you), but totally useless for power users like yourself.
Wow, what a great thread!
allenb1963 - As usual, I can't help but echo your sentiments.
I started my computer experience with a VA-503+ motherboard running Windows 95. The system had been 'rescued' by a friend from an idiot who tried to use it as a wall mural. He took it to a local shop, where the resident 'guru' opened it up, swapped out the parts he wanted with crap (can you say Winmodem?), reloaded just enough of the 95 OS so my friend could play games and charged him $100.00+. When my friend got tired of it, he offered to sell it to me and I jumped at the chance (duhhhh!). The only exposure I had with computers up to that point was at work (proprietary company software, a little hardware - no Internet access). I learned the hard way about computer hardware and software . . . compatibility issues, searching for drivers for parts that were no longer part of a system and trying to figure out why they wouldn't work, working with an OS that wasn't even a full OEM install . . . Anyway, I could have used an integrated system back then!
IMHO integrated boards have their place. For the home user with little to no experience, who doesn't want to spend or can't afford a lot of money, isn't looking for the biggest and brightest and can't be bothered learning about hardware, let alone software . . . that's the way to go. (Isn't that why most systems come preloaded with Windows?) Companies who use their IT personnel as general jack/jills of all computer trades, are better off with integrated or proprietary systems where an upgrade is 'adding more RAM' . . . as opposed to improving video or sound quality - so employees can play the newest games on company time. For the 'power' user with specific needs, whether it's gaming, graphics, web site hosting, power-hungry program applications - an integrated system probably won't be their first choice.
As consumers, we have a responsiblity to ensure we get our moneys worth - investing a little time deciding what we need and finding the best place to get it shouldn't be too much to ask of ourselves. Most computer salespeople PUSH the products managers tell them to and know very little about the systems themselves . . . some can spout off answers to generic FAQs but little else. If we lived in a perfect world, people would actually know more than the bare minimum for their jobs and . . . pigs would fly . . . .
Gore - While I can sympathize, I don't agree that every computer user needs "real" parts - mainly because they wouldn't know what to do with them. I DO agree that computer companies need to supply users with complete descriptions of the systems they sell and, just as important, should insist their employees understand the capabilities of the products they sell so they can provide full customer service. If you want to try a real nightmare system, upgrade an older e-machine (can you speak Korean?) or better yet a Compaq (man I hate pop rivets!). You may hate integrated systems, but I'd take one any day over a proprietary one.
I'm glad you were able to reconcile your nVidia card problem. It's trite but, you've learned all computer systems are NOT created equal and will know what to look for or at least question, next time around. Starting this thread probably opened other eyes as well. Thanks.
V.
Gore:
Just to clarify - keep in mind, as I mentioned this was bought at the time before GeForce2 cards came out (or were just coming out)....Quote:
A REAL NIC is only like 10 dollars, a Sound Blaster card is about 70 dollars and I paid 50 for the Vid Card....... $130.00 is a huge savings? I don't think so man.
So I'm talking a $10 NIC, a $70 Sound Card, and a about $170 video card (which is what the best of the GeForce cards costed at the time and more like $250 for a GeForce 2 if they were out yet)...
So thats between $250 and $330 of savings per system (assuming GeForce2 wasn't out - then lets look at the $250).
$250 x 2 = $500, which is most of the cost of a computer when you consider I wasn't buying new monitors (already have 2 - 21" displays at home)...
RRP
=o
If you have two 21 incher, why do you care about cost anyway? Lol. ANyway, I just had to rant because it pissed me off that they do this. Maybe a home user who thinks there OS is Word or something would be ok with integrated. But not me.
If any of you had half a clue, you would know that you can dissable all onboard hardware via jumpers (which most of you are to young to know what a jumper is) or via the BIOS.
Then if you're not a moron like gore, you can buy the correct card for the correct slot and upgrade without any problems. Or you can bite the bullet and pay a REAL professional to do the work.
I'm a moron? I already said the computer ****ing supported AGP AND PCI. I couldv used that card but I didnt want to use PCI so I took it back and got an AGP. And I did disable the thing in BIOS, just because I'm young doesnt mean I dont know that ****. I do know my computer history, how else would someone who has only had a computer for 4 years now (me) be able to say theyh ave used CP/M?Quote:
Originally posted here by 2pumpChump
If any of you had half a clue, you would know that you can dissable all onboard hardware via jumpers (which most of you are to young to know what a jumper is) or via the BIOS.
Then if you're not a moron like gore, you can buy the correct card for the correct slot and upgrade without any problems. Or you can bite the bullet and pay a REAL professional to do the work.
Being a moron and wanting a different and better card are two different things. And as Iv said about 600 times now, Im new to hardware, my area is in Oss and securing them.
Well I hate to tell you 2pumpChump, but you're wrong. I have the Compaq computer sitting right here. There is no AGP slot for an additional graphics card, only 4 PCI slots. There are no jumpers for disabling anything that is onboard, and if you've used a Compaq before you know there is BS in the BIOS. So if you don't believe me go get yourself a Compaq Persario 5000 from about 2 years ago.Quote:
If any of you had half a clue, you would know that you can dissable all onboard hardware via jumpers (which most of you are to young to know what a jumper is) or via the BIOS.
Companies don't have to make hardware upgradable or able to play with other cards put in. There are no rules like that in the computer realm.
~AciD
ahum... I'm saying something similar like AllenBQuote:
Originally posted here by gore
This is a complete rant about "Integrated" hardware componants. Most new PCs you buy right now, come with integrated sound cards, modems, Video Cards, and NICs......Where was I when they all decided that you cant ever upgrade because you dont need too? I bought an Nvidia E-GEFORCE 2 MX 400 Video card today with 64 MBs, I pop the case off and SUPRISE! The slot for graphics upgrades doesnt fit for the card. Its too small.
I'm kind of new to adding hardware outside of RAM so is this something I shouldv know wouldnt work? Or should companies that make PCs actually use REAL ****ing parts? How many fo you have had this problem?
If the damn Video card was REAL and not using MY RAM I wouldnt have had this problem to begin with. Linux can use the integrated Video Card and NIC but I cant use 3d with it, it says it is impossible.
I did buy an extra NIC because I knew THAT was integrated....Didnt think they did it to the Video Card too though :(
What are your thougths on this? I think its complete and total bullshit! Who the hell wants integrated parts? Excuse me I PAID FOR IT AND I WANT REAL PARTS.
It all depends for who and what the box is going to do. If I want a new box or part I make sure that all components are compatible with Linux.
Excuse me Gore, but I have a few remarks, probably they are all already adressed above, see them as a resume:
First, Before you purchase parts at least check if they are going to fit. In other words... you have an internet connection, google for it and read some specs and reviews. "I pop the case off and SUPRISE! The slot for graphics upgrades doesnt fit for the card. Its too small." You should have known that.
Second, you say you 'paid for it', wrong again, if you purchase all those parts separatly it costed you more than a single mobo with all integrated.
Third, if you purchase a mobo the specs cleary say what comes with it. So an Nvidia IGP means: an Nvidia integrated graphic processor. You should now that it is going to use the ram for vram.
Fourth, all integrated stuff reduces the hasle to put it all together. A little history: try to built a 80286 or 80386 computer with working hdd's, fdd, mouse, modem, sound, scanner,... and you will know what I mean. Believe me the standards today are a lot better and more 'standard' than the so called standards 10 to 15 years ago. A while ago you even had to buy a separate IDE or SCSI controller to get your disks to work. Your mobo was only a mobo with some ISA slots and a keyboard, speaker, reset and turbo connector... IRQ's in BIOS settings... nah dirty jumpers... overclocking in BIOS??? huh? solder a new oscillator on your board to increase the FSB.
Anyway you are right at one point, I don't realy like the integration of to many parts either. USB, Firewire, RAID, S-ATA, possibly LAN if it's Realtek, that's ok. But VGA bleh... those IGP things are always performing less than a seperata card, unless you only use your box for internet and wordprocessing. So Gore if someone want's to make a box for his/her grandma then such integrated parts are ok.
Just to clarify, since you asked...Quote:
If you have two 21 incher, why do you care about cost anyway? Lol.
Because the 21" monitors were bought yrs ago (seperatly) - 1 when I was still in college living with the folks and had no real bills yet, the other at about the same time that I moved in with my lady-friend - again still not having any real bills yet.
The 2 new computers were bought to replace those old Pentium 166mhz and 200mhz systems we were using still, and at the time was in middle of planning and paying for mine and that lady-friends wedding. (Her dad wouldn't foot the bill), so money was much tighter at that time...
Keep in mind also - integrated sound and NIC, while not saving alot of money up front, allows you to have multiple more open PCI slots. Allowing a smaller tower to be purchased with just as much room for additions (saving a little more money for those of us whom like room to grow)...
RRP
I'm sure you believe every word you're saying, but its all stuff I've been hearing for years. I see no real evidence that the desktop is going away.Quote:
Originally posted here by catch
The dektop is a dying market, the only reason people still buy desktops is because for equal cost they can currently get more power.
Personally, I'm very glad of that! Very, very glad. I've built my own computers and I've had them custom built for me. These days I prefer to have them built for me. Either way, though, I'm required to KNOW the components I want -- which means a lot of research. I learn more each time, and that single fact is a vital and precious reason to keep "designing" my own systems.
I'm sure there are lots of people out there who couldn't care less what's in their PC, and would just as soon buy a ready-rolled. That's fine for them, but not for me, and I have all the confidence in the world that the manufacturers will maintain a place for me in the marketplace.
Director
i think everyone needs to say a little mantra to themselves: "Lighten Up Francis"....
*smile*..
this has been a great thread, got lost a couple times, but it came back around again, and i voted for being bent over while i played pong.....HEY, anyone seen my ball????
-Java
This is completly wrong... sorry but the size of your tower doesn't really matter when it comes to expansion slots. Or you get a midi tower that fits both ATX and µATX or you get a mini tower that (probably will fit both also or occasionaly) only fit µATX mobo's. So the number of expansion slots used for PCI or AGP cards is the same. The only difference is the room inside, for instance you can't get a complete watercooling inside a small mini tower. A larger tower just gives you more room for more HDD's, cd devices, cooling, Fdd's,... it has not much to do with the expansion cards, unless it's so small that longer cards (full size agp or pci doesn't fit in) this is the case for barebone and small form cases. Therefor low profile cards are designed.Quote:
Originally posted here by bpiedlow
Keep in mind also - integrated sound and NIC, while not saving alot of money up front, allows you to have multiple more open PCI slots. Allowing a smaller tower to be purchased with just as much room for additions (saving a little more money for those of us whom like room to grow)...
RRP
The multiple more open PCI slots is also wrong cause motherboards with parts integrated come with less open slots (why should you need them is their idea). So most Mobo's without IGP, come with an AGP and 4, 5 or even 6 PCI slots and they still have USB, ATA, Sound, and probably also LAN integrated.
Your "integrated" mobo comes with the (cheap) video integrated no agp slot and 3 or 4 open PCI slots.
It's not necessarly the option with most expansion options, in contrary.
Integrated parts have made the computers much cheaper for the corporate world. Companies buy computers to use for 3 or so years and then refresh them buy buying new ones, so upgrading isn't a factor. Personally i would prefer a computer with out some integrated parts for the reason of upgrading. But thats only my opinion and i could be wrong.
I'm sorry, you're wrong about this. Although I will agree that this may be the case with some manufacturers - but definiatly not all.Quote:
The multiple more open PCI slots is also wrong cause motherboards with parts integrated come with less open slots (why should you need them is their idea). So most Mobo's without IGP, come with an AGP and 4, 5 or even 6 PCI slots and they still have USB, ATA, Sound, and probably also LAN integrated.
Your "integrated" mobo comes with the (cheap) video integrated no agp slot and 3 or 4 open PCI slots.
It's not necessarly the option with most expansion options, in contrary.
Our Compaqs (sorry to keep using it as example, I really do hate compaqs in general they were just cheap and fit the bill of what was needed at the time)...
Anyway, it has intgrated sound, video, Nic, and Modem with USB etc - but still came with an AGP 2x/4x slot and 5 PCI slots.
Indeed bpiedlow, some manufactures give an AGP and 5 PCI slots too. So all I could say is, yep, you are right. I only pointed out that the more open slots is not always true. ;)