Here is the secret report
http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell...800-mp-bde.htm
courtesy of www.fas.org ( a goldmine of info on stuff like this with a nice mailing list to boot)
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Here is the secret report
http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell...800-mp-bde.htm
courtesy of www.fas.org ( a goldmine of info on stuff like this with a nice mailing list to boot)
Here is the secret report
http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell...800-mp-bde.htm
courtesy of www.fas.org ( a goldmine of info on stuff like this with a nice mailing list to boot)
Some of you guys (cough British) sound like SAS?
Some of you guys (cough British) sound like SAS?
(cough) No..... ;)
Never quite that good actually..... Practically lived with them for a long while, worked with them on "the odd" occasion and got a fair bit of training from them too...... a finer bunch of a$$holes you couldn't hope to meet...... them and the SBS.....
I really believe there are no better soldiers on the planet........ They train most of the best of the rest..... ;)
(cough) No..... ;)
Never quite that good actually..... Practically lived with them for a long while, worked with them on "the odd" occasion and got a fair bit of training from them too...... a finer bunch of a$$holes you couldn't hope to meet...... them and the SBS.....
I really believe there are no better soldiers on the planet........ They train most of the best of the rest..... ;)
I agree, SAS would smack the **** out of Delta. Especially in covert.
//edit Chances are, based on depth, you wouldn't admit affiliation anyway ;)
I agree, SAS would smack the **** out of Delta. Especially in covert.
//edit Chances are, based on depth, you wouldn't admit affiliation anyway ;)
Moi? Petit moi?
I'm as honest as the day is long.......
Florida real estate for sale, come get your real estate here, finest property unsullied by industrialization, commune with nature at close quarters, get yer florida real estate here..... ;)
Moi? Petit moi?
I'm as honest as the day is long.......
Florida real estate for sale, come get your real estate here, finest property unsullied by industrialization, commune with nature at close quarters, get yer florida real estate here..... ;)
I'd love to move to florida.. /me is sad
Yeah, but only in covert IMO.Quote:
I agree, SAS would smack the **** out of Delta. Especially in covert.
I'd love to move to florida.. /me is sad
Yeah, but only in covert IMO.Quote:
I agree, SAS would smack the **** out of Delta. Especially in covert.
Question for those in claiming that this was just standared interagation, how do you fell about the configrmed 2 iraquies killed durning interagation sessions? How do you feel about the CIA run ghost prisinoers there who are never officaly checked in with the military athority?
Question for those in claiming that this was just standared interagation, how do you fell about the configrmed 2 iraquies killed durning interagation sessions? How do you feel about the CIA run ghost prisinoers there who are never officaly checked in with the military athority?
I saw some of the pictures. I have an opinion but the converstation has played itself out and I'll just be repeating. Here is my view on something though. Those things are classified, very tight. This picture is of an Officer, not a soldier, an Officer taking a picture of the prisonors. So it's a picture someone else is taking of an Officer taking a picture. No one else finds that extremely interesting? Staged perhaps?
//edit Bballad, how did they die?
I saw some of the pictures. I have an opinion but the converstation has played itself out and I'll just be repeating. Here is my view on something though. Those things are classified, very tight. This picture is of an Officer, not a soldier, an Officer taking a picture of the prisonors. So it's a picture someone else is taking of an Officer taking a picture. No one else finds that extremely interesting? Staged perhaps?
//edit Bballad, how did they die?
No idea, the image i saw was of a bloody shower stall and a body wraped in cellophane and packed in ice...It is mentioned in the generals report taht has been leaking around.
Yeah sickening isn't it? I saw Bush's apology (well, read it actually) on a website and he actually said what was some of the thing's that were done to the prisoner's (^ included) and it was pretty sickening. To see and hear that we're doing some of the thing's they are doing to us is a little off, but hey.. Welcome to War :D
Have a read of this.
what they are doing, according to British military sources.
The techniques devised in the system, called R2I - resistance to interrogation - match the crude exploitation and abuse of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib jail in Baghdad.
One former British special forces officer who returned last week from Iraq, said: "It was clear from discussions with US private contractors in Iraq that the prison guards were using R2I techniques, but they didn't know what they were doing."
He said British and US military intelligence soldiers were trained in these techniques, which were taught at the joint services interrogation centre in Ashford, Kent, now transferred to the former US base at Chicksands.
"There is a reservoir of knowledge about these interrogation techniques which is retained by former special forces soldiers who are being rehired as private contractors in Iraq. Contractors are bringing in their old friends".
Using sexual jibes and degradation, along with stripping naked, is one of the methods taught on both sides of the Atlantic under the slogan "prolong the shock of capture", he said.
Female guards were used to taunt male prisoners sexually and at British training sessions when female candidates were undergoing resistance training they would be subject to lesbian jibes.
"Most people just laugh that off during mock training exercises, but the whole experience is horrible. Two of my colleagues couldn't cope with the training at the time. One walked out saying 'I've had enough', and the other had a breakdown. It's exceedingly disturbing," said the former Special Boat Squadron officer, who asked that his identity be withheld for security reasons.
Many British and US special forces soldiers learn about the degradation techniques because they are subjected to them to help them resist if captured. They include soldiers from the SAS, SBS, most air pilots, paratroopers and members of pathfinder platoons.
A number of commercial firms which have been supplying interrogators to the US army in Iraq boast of hiring former US special forces soldiers, such as Navy Seals.
The full article is here:
http://www.modoracle.com/?page=http:...il.h2f?id=5284
Wow, that is degrading. Nothing like hiring a sexy woman to get some information out of a guy, ey? :D
Thas just sick :mad:Quote:
Using sexual jibes and degradation, along with stripping naked, is one of the methods taught on both sides of the Atlantic under the slogan "prolong the shock of capture", he said.
Which is sicker, humiliation, degradation, isolation, etc. or all out torture which includes maiming, electric shock, beating, nails and teeth ripped out, etc. etc. etc?Quote:
Thas just sick
You break the person by their own weakness not your strength and you get more reliable information in the end...... and it's very effective..... it just takes longer to get the information from some people....
Hi Tiger,
Didn't I see you drinking down the artists' club on a number of occasions?..................of course a "gentleman" would have a particular colour stripe down the side of his dress uniform trousers :DQuote:
(cough) No.....
Guess our US colleagues won't be able to work that out ;)
Ho Hum?
Out of about 350,000 of any troops, you are going to get some rogues
Those are the ones who get found out.........I know a few Kurds over here.........who would just love to be in that prison...................I wonder why?.................have we forgotten why we went there in the first place?
All I will say is you do not streetfight under the Marquess of Queensbury Rules?
I would like to know the numbers "wrongly detained"............because if it is not wrong......
I rest my case
whats wrong with this whole thing is the pictures. the fact that they were taken then passed around and the fact they're being shown in the media. ever picture published is fodder to terrorists. every news agency capitializing on them is helping our enemies. who need al-jazeera when you have ap.
Tedob1
You are absolutely correct! if there were no scum press..................there would be no problem.
As I said..................there will be a few "out of order" on our side..............hell I was raised under military discipline....................we don't let our own side down?
That is how it is?
:)
Would that be the piss artists.......................Lol.Quote:
Didn't I see you drinking down the artists' club on a number of occasions?..................of course a "gentleman" would have a particular colour stripe down the side of his dress uniform trousers
Or the Regiments weekend, lean mean fighting club.
Edit
Tedob thats why i said the pics are BS.
Rule no 1/ All info from interigation is classified.
Let your enemy no who you have captured and the intel you have got from them is worthless.
Nihil: No, never, honestly.... I never wore stripes on my panties.... ;)
Look back through my posting history and you should be able to _PM_ me my unit.... Nothing special really..... Just the best another arm has to offer..... :cool: We provided a lot of men to the SAS and we were trained very well though until the early-mid 80's when some dimwit at MOD decided to give us the CVRT that was destined for the Shah.... After that it went to rodent poop IMO, and I moved on to a different trade.
Tedob: Yep, that's what I said at the beginning.... Pure unprofessionalism by the 800th, (part time soldiers - not questioning their courage or commitment there folks - questioning their professionalism..... this isn't a tourist trip where you take the "happy snaps" to show the civvies back home how tough you are..... Save those photo ops for the pretty tracer rounds ricocheting around you on a nice summer evening...... :rolleyes: ). They are rightfully finding themselves in the clag for "stupidity and unprofessionalism in the face of the enemy". To be honest us Brits have shown some similar behaviour though.... I don't condone that either.... The kids that did it and the kids that reported it are prime for a court martial.... I, personally, don't give a rodents behind how bad they feel about the way these people are being "treated".... They are basically unharmed..... But there is a high probability that they have information that can save lives, be they British, American or Iraqi... It doesn't matter.... A single person saved from a terrorist is worth any humiliation, degradation without physical harm of any terrorist or sympathiser with information that can stop it.
Interestingly enough you should look carefully at the statements of many of the "high level" staff of both the US and the UK..... Dropped in there quite regularly are statements such as "interrogation will continue", "separation of criminals from persons of interest will be more carefully looked at", (I'm paraphrasing, but it gives the gist of what has been said). What they are saying is that these pictures, (as I said early on), are not pictures of the way the general population in the detention centers are treated..... These are interrogation pictures.... These are the "bad boys".... I hope for the potential future victims of these people's friends sake that the people being interrogated now are not "given a break" because of the stupidity of a few idiots.
On the other side of the coin..... banning the soldiers from taking a camera into the facilities will be seen as "hiding something"......
Can anyone, who understands the meaning of the word "war", explain to me how you fight one with your hands tied behind your back?????? Should we send these people who are unilaterally against us, that are loyal to thier friends gold engraved invitations to give them up and tell us where the weapons are? Run a war like that and I can see this one becoming synonymous with Vietnam.....
The biggest problem today is that discipline, respect and honor are qualities that are being less and less respected by the people who are being placed in a position where those qualities are most required. Very sad..... Worse yet..... very dangerous, and it may, historically, indicate the fall of another "great" power....
Jinxy..............I was referring to Club Row, Bisley Camp.
Tiger, not even green ones? ;)
:D
Have not been in any clubs at Bisley, but did shoot there one year, 82/83 i think it was. Memory is going due to to much drinking. The first time i saw the SA80. Long befor it was on issue.
The Bullpup.... It's basically the same gat that competed with the SLR back in, what, 1958.... Enfield IIRC.... Bigger calibre though back then.... The SA80 is an attempt to standardize the ammo with the Americans..... But I'm old.... I could be all wrong..... :eek:Quote:
The first time i saw the SA80
Yes you are correct the man from vickers gave us the sales pitch. I do remember he said that it had been on trials for some 10 years and that so much money had been spent on development this was defineltly what we would end up with.
Mind you it was designed to take a special round that went out the window when it was released. I got to have a play with one in 85, Bloody useless two rounds down the range and the optic sight fell off.
Enfield now that was a gat. 20 rounds down with one of those and your shoulder would ache for days. Got my RAF marksman with one of those when i was a young ATC cadet.
I do recall doing trials of ammo with the L34-A1 and L96-A1..............7.62x52 or .308Win (to our American allies)
Some of the nicest ammo was the Norwegian Raufoss, but the Salt Lake City National Match was brilliant until the temp went over 80f.
I guess that for sniping in Iraq I would look to Raufoss 185gr (yellow label) and a 1 in 10 twist barrel?
Well, actually, "purple spot"...........no one takes snipers prisoner do they?
:D
Never shoot as a sniper, just about everything ell's though SLR SMG 9Milli gun match section match even had a go at the AL47 target rifle.
Standard NATO ammunition for the M16 is 5.56 x 39. The 7.62 x 51 was the old ammunition used in the M14. From some of the history channel shows that I watched the decision to switch was made from experience in Korea, with the heavier bullet not penetrating some of the thick clothing that the North Koreans / Chinese were wearing. So they went with a much smaller, but extremely high velocity round with the 5.56. It goes in excess of 3000fps whereas the .308 was in the mid 2000 range (depending on ammo, not sure on standard rounds)
Now I have no experience whatsoever with British weapons, but I know that the 5.56 x 39 is the standard NATO round, and that its been used for quite some time. The standard issue weapon was the L85 A1 bullpup, and the L86 is the light support weapon. Judging from what I just read the SA80 is the latest in the line of the L85, "modified in light of operational experience, and had a major mid-life update in 2002, which resulted in the SA80A2 series"
http://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/pw/pw_sa80.htm
Now thats a bit of individual knowledge and a quote from a UK army site :)
I was unable to find out when the 5.56 standard took over, however the 7.62 standard was enabled in the 50's, more info about that here http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/7.62mm%20NATO ...
Anyhoo enough gun geeking out for me!
7.62 R00lz......
A friend, (Bootneck), in the Falklands was carrying an AR-15 and was moving into position to attack an Argentinian SF position in a remote farmhouse when they were discovered. They were carrying the "little" rifles because they were light. During the ensuing firefight he was charged by a slightly "pissy" Argentinian with an FN. He claims to have put 3-4 rounds in the man's chest to no avail. "They just seemed to go right bloody through... he never even noticed them" was the quote. He managed to bring the man down at his own feet. He put down the AR-15, picked up the FN, took all the guys ammo and got all he could when the firefight was over.
I'll carry the extra few pounds..... It's worth it to know that when I shoot at something it's going to fall over no matter how "pissy" it might be....... You don't keep coming when a single shot has made a hole in your back that a rolled up combat jackets barely fills.....
Personally, I have always favored a 12 guage. Never heard of anyone getting right up when hit by a 12 guage, even if they are wearing body armor. (like getting kicked by a mule!)
Always did think the AR15 was a toy gun your mate should have crossed the round tips. But that is a bit noughty though.
Tedob1: your right, and if that damm press had never brought up water gate we would have been fine...or mali4 no problems there....look we went far beyond any intaragation methods...people where attacked by police dogs, people where beaten to death. MPS who where never trained in intaragation where told to use any means nessecary to keep men up for days on end.....If we didn't get the answers we wanted out of pople we beat the some more, its starting to looklike the iraquis quickly learend to lie and tell us about forign fighteres insted of telling the truth and getting beaten again.
In the heat of battle I can imagine a 7.62 would cause much more damage, but its also much slower. I have no combat experience to vouch for, but I love bigger rifles and aren't knocking them. I mean heck I almost bought a .338 ultra mag for hunting :)
Anyways the theory behind the M16 / 5.56 ammo is that its blistering fast, and when it does impact a target, rather than going straight through it tumbles, which causes more trama. Where as the big heavy bullet 7.62 plain goes straight through. And because of the speed of the 5.56 its much more likely to go through body armor / thick clothing.
I'll leave it to you vets to decide which is better though. But if I get deployed into combat, I know what weapon I'll be carrying, the standard issue M16A2. Its here to stay, suffice some of the sniper rifles / specialized teams sometimes carry M14's.
Hi thad~
The problem with small calibre HV rounds is that they are so easily deflected..........a bush or pampas grass, or bamboo or whatever?Quote:
Anyways the theory behind the M16 / 5.56 ammo is that its blistering fast, and when it does impact a target, rather than going straight through it tumbles, which causes more trama. Where as the big heavy bullet 7.62 plain goes straight through. And because of the speed of the 5.56 its much more likely to go through body armor / thick clothing.
A shotgun, M-79 or large calibre round will either penetrate, or work its way through?
As for AP qualities...............a tungsten dart in a standard round will give more penetration?
Purple spot will explode inside...............true explosive bullets, not "black claw/talon" or crap like that..............
So I take a standard .45 Speer 485 grain semi jacketed hollow point, and insert a small tungsten spike and a few drops of mercury................I would like you to be wearing the flack jacket :D
Just a few thoughts?
Chicksands? **** that is a blast from the past.