That one is easy, you shoot the petrol bomb and watch the bastard burn?
;)
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That one is easy, you shoot the petrol bomb and watch the bastard burn?
;)
Sounds like a good reason to learn a little of the local language , does it not? At least the words "stop" "police" and "halt".
The most worst translation i've ever heard. Its not even portuguese :)Quote:
stop = batente
stop police = pare pol�*cias
halt = parada
halt police = pol�*cias da parada.
Hey, everybody here watch American TV Series. We are all know what "Halt, Police" means...
Yes, he was a Brazillian. He run out just because his visa was expired and he think that was the Immigration Police (that usually dont shot illegal immigrants). As he was working there, i assume that he did understand "Stop, Police...". He just realized that those guys are looking for a terrorist
The funny thing is most of guys here believe that shooting a unknown guy, already arrested by police (down on the floor) is a "normal procedure" and can be used "because the terror situation".
For me was simply an execution. So shoot every alien in the streets. Maybe all are terrorists.
I bet it the victim was a "genuine british" London now will be in fire and 1st Minister were out.
But its "Just a foreigner", using a weird jacket... (maybe because your Summer is equivalent to our Winter...)
Thanks God i live in Brazil. Here we have a lot of deaths due to violence but at least we still think that this kind of "police action" is very abusive and those cops should get life prison for that. You cant kill (as a policeman) your worst enemy if he was captured and lying on the floor, helpless. Its simply not right.
We have this kind of "Police" in the past on '60s. It was called "Ditadura" (maybe is "dictatorship" in English, not sure).
oh please ... brazil is one of the most violent countries not in war ... from what i watch and read your cops used to kill prisoners because of overcrowding (you have one of the most disgusting prisons) and regulary kill homeless becaue they "pissed" 'em off.
Sorry, but you must choose better your newspapers. I live here for than 40 years and those stories never happened.Quote:
Originally posted here by unhappy
oh please ... brazil is one of the most violent countries not in war ... from what i watch and read your cops used to kill prisoners because of overcrowding (you have one of the most disgusting prisons) and regulary kill homeless becaue they "pissed" 'em off.
Of course Brazil is a violent country. But AT LEAST i know what is wrong and what is right.
And cops shooting unarmed, helpless guys just because they "think" he was a terrorist is wrong.
You will see when they start shooting british guys "because" they run away from police.
And BTW, countries that raise the "Freedom & Democracy Flag" (US, UK and "partners") should give the example. That was a "Saddam way of Justice".
Everyone should be pass thru Justice System.
Policeman is not equal soldier.
You cant use War Rules on this case.
If you start shooting civilians "by mistake", you will get just one result: people will be affraid from terrorists AND cops.
Read my custom title. :lildevil:Quote:
In your sights you have a petrol bomb thrower. He is 400 metres from anything/people/property.
What do you do.??
The suspect got what he deserved....under the circumstances. The police did what they are paid/trained to do. WHAT IF......they hadn't shot the guy, and he detonated a bomb....what then? Is it hard to understand that a suspected terrorist (he came out of a house under surveilance) wearing something inappropriate for the weather (roughly about 70* F) . In Rio de Janeiro it was 77*F yesterday...(didn't know you folks were so sensitive to the temperature changes) ...hardly any difference to excuse the wearing of a jacket.
Kudos to those policemen/women for doing the right thing.
Cacosapo
Please advise your friends that at least one Englishman is truly sorry for what happened. I have prayed for him and his family; Father Michael will say a Mass.............I shall speak with the bishop today, perhaps all English Catholics should pray for him?..........possibly this Sunday.
What gets to me is it was so stupid.................his visa or work permit ran out? heh! he is from Brasil? we have fewer Brasilian illegal immigrants than hens have teeth :rolleyes: I am amazed that I can actually get Brasilian and "illegal immigrant" into a sentence in the English language.
The normal procedure would be................."Print your name and address at the top of the form sir, and sign it right down there at the bottom" then it just gets renewed like a library book.
If you think about it, that makes a lot of sense? it actually costs rather a lot of money to deport somebody ;)
I still believe that our police were perfectly correct, particularly as the guy jumped the barriers..........I know that I am old, but it is no mean feat, trust me.
All in all, a tragedy?
Johnno
Yeap, and We are now in the Winter, while England is at Summer. So, do you wear heavy jacket on winter, dont you? so do we :) ... Just see the temperatures to realize that England is a damn cold country....Quote:
wearing something inappropriate for the weather (roughly about 70* F) . In Rio de Janeiro it was 77*F yesterday.
I agree to Nihil: It was a tragedy. But really, even living in a country that people is shot in the streets every day, i will never accept that a policeman kill an unarmed person with 8 bullets just because they "thought" he was a terrorist.
I will tell you again: it will open undesired consequences to you people. Allowing police to kill people (again, unarmed, just trying to escape) just because "they think he was a bad guy" will kill your democracy and your civil rights.
We had here this period of history here (1964-1980), when the Army took control of the country.
After sometime, they start to think that everybody that was against their ideias are "bad guys".
A lot of people died on that period.
I agree 100% with you cacosapo,
I was wearing a winter coat this morning in NL (same temp as UK) and I'm born and raised here..
Also with my short hair and semi-long beard I do look like a typical terrorist in NL..
Also when confronted with machine gun wearing plain clothed people.. I don't know what I'd do..
This is not a good example for law inforcement anywhere !
I'm sorry...but I don't see death as an evil thing...a horrible outcome...death is a ' natural ' part of existence...unavoidable...innocent/guilty everyone dies...death is not a tragedy
I sympathize with the family who no longer can enjoy his company but I maintain the police were acting in an appropriate manner under the circumstances...' desparate times call for desparate measures '...
if he had been a bomber...should they have let him get on the Subway? If he had a detonator in his hand and explosives under his jacket...should they have tried to arrest him and all been blown up with him?
The solution was to kill him ' before ' he had a chance to do anything...in the aftermath we can all be critics in retrospect...but in the heat of the moment they did the right thing in their eyes...to save lives.
They were wrong...but that would also be true of a guy running down an alley who encounters a murder in progress...the cops begin chase but they chase the wrong guy...the guy reaches into his pocket to get his ID...cops shoot him...OPPS wrong guy....
but understandable!
Eg ;)
You wont think like that when you come here and policeman "thinks" that you are a drug dealer and shot you after asked you "Você é um traficante? Responda! Diga se não eu te mato"...Quote:
Originally posted here by Egaladeist
I'm sorry...but I don't see death as an evil thing...a horrible outcome...death is a ' natural ' part of existence...unavoidable...innocent/guilty everyone dies...death is not a tragedy
Death is a tragedy. And you cant call this one as "a natural part of existence".....
Other day one of the Asian countries (Malasia?) comndened a drug dealer (a brazillian) to death. A lot of guys (britts included) claimed "This is unfair. No death penalty for him". At least he had a fair trial, on a Court. Not on the street. Not by a desesperated policeman, running, with a weapon in hand.
I didnt saw the policeman. I dont know even if he was using a uniform. I hope the he was. At least he can say "the guy saw me, with police uniform. I showed him my badge, and asked him several times to stop. He didnt complained. So ive killed him".
Believe me, if someone shout "Police, stop", with a weapon in hand, without an identification, i will run.
Why?
Because here, in Brazil, all cops use uniforms.
Just a quote:
The death of one man is a tragedy..
The death of thousands is a statistic.
Hi cacosapo,
Actually that wouldn't bother me at all...the only thought that would cross my mind at that time would be who would raise my girls and how well would they be taken care of...
and by natural death I was refering to the fact it must come to all of us...I don't know if he was meant to die that day anyways and neither do you...maybe he would've died anyways...do we really have a say?
I save my sympathies for the living...and accept the fact I will die...I can only hope it will be as quick and not spend my last days withering away in a hospital bed with tubes up my nose...given the choice I'd gladly take the bullets.
Eg ;)
Cacasopo:
For all your "we do it right in Brazil" you might find some of these to be enlightening.
Simply put, Britain is one of the last countries in the world where there is a history of police officers gunning _anyone_ down in the street. Furthermore, it is one of the last countries where every Tom, Dick and Harry carries a weapon. Thus, if a man wielding a gun yells "Stop, Police" at you in front of numerous witnesses in London on _any_ day, let alone the day after the second attempt to kill as many people as possible in the transportation system of that city it is nothing more than common ****ing sense to stop and place your hands in the air.
I have no sympathy whatsoever for this man - what he did was pure stupidity - he almost deserves a Darwin if you ask me.
Sorry, but you got my words quit wrong. I never told that we do the things right here. On the contrary, we DID it wrong. Thats why we are like this now. Excessive "Police brutality here?". That is just because we, in the past, gave this rights to them to "fight against the bad guys".Quote:
For all your "we do it right in Brazil" you might find some of these to be enlightening.
" is he an assassin? kill him before the court. he deserve it anyway"
"is he an terrorist? kill him"
"is he a comunist? kill him"
"is he poor or black? kill him"
And now we have this here. Police use to kill people just because they are poor and they run when they shout "Policia, Pare". We dont trust the police. In fact, sometimes is better here to trust the bad guys. At least they dont shot us in the back.
I was talking about "consience". We, here in Brazil, know that is WRONG. And we are trying to change that (but its hard to revert)
And you, on the other hand, are walking exactly thru the same path - just give cops enough "freedom" to protect us.
A question: Who will protect you against cops when the terrorists cease to exist? because the cops will already taste "the freedom on action", and it will be hard to take back that...
Death is not an evil thing. It is a natural outcome of life. But when someone gets killed for the wrong reason, it is not the same thing. One way to wash our hands off everything is to believe in the divine karma and that fate decried that he be killed for something he didn't do. But that isn't how I'd like to think about it. I am not afraid of death as to how it will affect me after I die. I am afraid that death will come to me before I get a chance to do the things that I want to do.Quote:
I'm sorry...but I don't see death as an evil thing...a horrible outcome...death is a ' natural ' part of existence...unavoidable...innocent/guilty everyone dies...death is not a tragedy
The guy who got killed had a family. He might have had a girlfriend. He might have been thinking of getting married. He might have had lots of dreams that were on the verge of getting fulfilled. Maybe the only place they could materialise was in UK (a free country?). When the police asked him to halt, maybe his only thought was ... "if they catch me, they'll find out my visa has expired and deport me... i've got to escape".
A million possibilities.... these are just a few. None of us can tell what his intentions were. We can only surmise. Sorry eg, but I just can't agree with your "anyway death is inevitable" kind of reasoning in this case. No one has the right to take a life, and that is my firm belief.
That's true. That's probably why the administration has gone completely berserk with this shoot-on-doubt attitude. They aren't used to such large scale disasters happening every other day. Maybe that's why the terrorists chose london in the first place.Quote:
Simply put, Britain is one of the last countries in the world where there is a history of police officers gunning _anyone_ down in the street. Furthermore, it is one of the last countries where every Tom, Dick and Harry carries a weapon.
I have nothing against the people of the UK or the USA, but can you deny this....
1. following 9/11, USA attacked Afghanistan and Iraq (along with UK) for the sake of self-protection. In tech terms, if I get a virus and it has my isp's gateway ip, I simply take a sledge hammer and beat him and every one/thing in his office down.
2. following 7/7, UK starts a shoot-on-doubt policy for anyone who it feels is a suspect. There is a trojan which is eating up my bandwidth. I delete anything that even tries to connect outside including nvupdate and yupdater.
Well folks, I've rambled a little too much. I'm a little more emotional than I thought I was. But please don't mind me and before I go....
I have nothing against the people of the UK and the USA. Please do not take this post personally
This guy was running towards the train. Don't forget that.
Hi alamuru420123,
Death is inevitable...and I do believe that it is not only acceptable to take a life under the right circumstances but it is also in some cases a moral obligation.Quote:
Sorry eg, but I just can't agree with your "anyway death is inevitable" kind of reasoning in this case. No one has the right to take a life, and that is my firm belief.
I realize that is not the ' popular ' theory...it is nevertheless the correct one! :D
Eg ;)
A simple clarification:Quote:
1. following 9/11, USA attacked Afghanistan and Iraq (along with UK) for the sake of self-protection. In tech terms, if I get a virus and it has my isp's gateway ip, I simply take a sledge hammer and beat him and every one/thing in his office down.
Afghanistan was attacked to get OBL and the terrorist cells operating in Afghanistan, who were behind 9/11...when OBL escaped the matter became the Taliban and the democranization of Afghanistan...
Iraq was/is another matter entirely. :D
MAYBE, but he would have been breaking the law. People dwelling in and/or visiting a country should (and in most cases) are aware of laws. This is common sense-you're running toward a train. The police tell you to halt-what would you do?Quote:
The guy who got killed had a family. He might have had a girlfriend. He might have been thinking of getting married. He might have had lots of dreams that were on the verge of getting fulfilled. Maybe the only place they could materialise was in UK (a free country?). When the police asked him to halt, maybe his only thought was ... "if they catch me, they'll find out my visa has expired and deport me... i've got to escape"
Obviously if your intent is to commit a crime, keep running. When you choose this option on top of the fact that the train station was recently bombed, you run the risk of getting shot, unfortunately.
US law says that without threat or a visible clue that the suspect has or is going to defend himself with a weapon, the police cannot shoot. Believe it or not, whether or not he was involved, I dont think there are people in the UK losing sleep over his death.
Personally I care more about the hundreds of "accidental" deaths we hear about avery month. This week, a couple who dies in a car crash passing through on their honeymoon and a baby girl who was left in the car too long on a 100 degree F. day. This guy was a direct contributor to his own demise. Not only did he run toward a train as a suspect, he also crossed a barrier.
I've been thinking about this one, and I'm starting to lean towards this guy having committed "Suicide by Police"; or he was a decoy so that other radical Islamics could monitor his progress and identify the British undercover agents. Call it intelligence gathering. Pointing out who and how the undercover agents are deployed helps to plan future attacks.
VERY naive ............Quote:
No one has the right to take a life,
To follow this path leads to destruction. simply because the baddies DO think they have the right / duty / OBLIGATION to take life, anyones life.
If we do nothing we lose
If we fight back we WILL win.
[/quote]That's true. That's probably why the administration has gone completely berserk with this shoot-on-doubt attitude. They aren't used to such large scale disasters happening every other day. Maybe that's why the terrorists chose london in the first place.[/quote]Quote:
Simply put, Britain is one of the last countries in the world where there is a history of police officers gunning _anyone_ down in the street. Furthermore, it is one of the last countries where every Tom, Dick and Harry carries a weapon.
Britain has had to put up with terrorist bombers for over thirty years .............
We do NOT fall apart at the seams just because some turd takes a dislike to us......
And as for killing ..................
History will show, from WAY back in our past, through the Empire, into the present, that when things get dirty .............. BRITS kill there way out.
Diplomacy only ever worked where one side WANTED it to, and would fold to the aggressor.
OBL doesn't understand diplomacy, he doesn't WANT to ...........
It only leaves war / death / killing ............
I don't care if people DO find the posts here in Cosmos offensive or personal, that's why it's here ..................... :steam: :aaargh: :D
[edit]
I worked in Brazil in the 80's, for an American company, working in Guaraja by Santos, shook hands with Pele :cool: at contracts end, took leave in Rio................... BEAUTIFUL city
HORRENDOUS amount of crime..... and the response ?
the poor kids were being shot on sight by the police for being the perceived cause......
the rich kids, armed to the teeth, also joining in the hunt at night.....
the favalas ..............
so much wrong, yet it remained a vibrant city.
I'm sure it's changed now ?????
just remember -
It takes more than a couple of incidents to make any impression on any city, London MORE than most.
medication required :drink:
Good thing the underground has some service information on this now..
http://photos23.flickr.com/28744614_baad3b00b1.jpg
But what about the translations into Urdu, Farsi etc. Those poor non-English speaking immigrants won't be able to understand it.....Quote:
Good thing the underground has some service information on this now..
In true Brit fashion it should be typed in capital letters with more spaces between the words so they will understand it.
For the non_Brits: It is traditional amongst Brits not to learn a foreign language but rather, (when in a foreign country), to speak louder and slower so the locals can understand you.....
:D
Yeap. Please continue believing on that. Perhaps it turns to reality. Bush is doing that in Iraq/ Afganistan and everybody is now true believing that Americans are there just to save Iraq people....Quote:
...he was a decoy so that other radical Islamics could monitor his progress and identify the British undercover agents. Call it intelligence gathering. Pointing out who and how the undercover agents are deployed helps to plan future attacks.
It about that was talking about. When you give God Powers to police (they can kill anybody just because they have a "probable cause) they will use. Against to you, included.Quote:
HORRENDOUS amount of crime..... and the response ?
the poor kids were being shot on sight by the police for being the perceived cause......
A good history from the down bellow:
Some days ago police went to the poor region of a city to patrol.
They stop a guy, thinking he was a drug dealer. They beat him and started to arrest him.
His younger brother (about 13) run out of the house screaming "Dont arrest my brother"
They shot him (a child - 13 years!) - they "think" he was a bas guy.
His mother run out of the house screaming "Dont arrest my son"
They shot her.
And, as they already kill 2 person, they killed the first one too. (what the f., he was a bad guy anyway)
Explanations? (from the police)
They started with that:
"They try to kill us" (a child, bare hands, against half dozen heavy armed policeman)
Now they (all 6 policemen) are fugitives from the law.
Want to know how it will become?
Just take a look at news about Rio de Janeiro & Sao Paulo. About Police Violence. That is what you will got.
The objectives of Terrorist is spread Terror. To make brother be against brother.
And, as far i can see, they had success.
Excellent statement.Quote:
The objectives of Terrorist is spread Terror. To make brother be against brother.
I dont feel that there was a miscommunication simply because he was a foreigner. In every language I've come across, urgency and/or danger is signified by an elevated voice. So if someone is yelling at you( and you havent done anything wrong), there must be a problem.
I asked my 75 year old grandparents if they understood what "STOP POLICE" meant, .....they did :D
As tiger said a few posts ago "IT JUST ****ING COMMON SENSE"....any argument that the guy didn't understand, throw em out the window because they hold no water. Again, he got what he deserved.
cacosapo - I was simply trying to rationalize why someone would leave a building that was Known to be under surveillance by the British Government, wear a padded winter coat in the middle of summer, enter a subway system that has been attacked several times during the last few weeks, run from the police, and hurtle a turnstile to enter the subway.Quote:
Yeap. Please continue believing on that. Perhaps it turns to reality. Bush is doing that in Iraq/ Afganistan and everybody is now true believing that Americans are there just to save Iraq people....
As for Americas presense in Iraq. You are correct in a sense. Originally the intent was to prevent the buildup and future use of weapons of mass destrucion by Iraq. President Bush has admitted that U.S. has not found and the U.S. is not likely to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. However, leaving Iraq in the hands of a militant Islamic terrorists is unacceptable, and would be a grave error both morally and politically. At this point America is in Iraq to help the new Iraqi government gain stability and for no other reason. (Killing militant Islamic terrorists is simply an added bonus.) America would like nothing more than to bring all U.S. troops home. In fact, if the terrorists really wanted the U.S. out of Iraq, the terrorists would stop bombing and fighting Americans and Iraqis alike. Once that happens America can pull out of Iraq wihtout having a sense of guilt over a failed responsibility to the Iraqi people.
Hi OverdueSpy,
Sorry...a few more corrections:
1. Going into Iraq had nothing to do with WMD...yes, that was the excuse they used...but that was not the reason
2. America ( the citizens ) would pull out of Iraq on a moments notice...America the politic can't...there is no way for George Jr. to pull out and save face now...even if he wanted to...he's stuck in that rut until he wins or loses...Vietnam revisited...let's just hope it doesn't get that bad...and if he doesn't commit himself and the full account of his forces it could well turn into another Nam
Eg ;)
i'm eagerly awaiting the 08 elections.....
Hi Kthln01,
I know everyone is betting on the upcoming elections...but...even a positive outcome does not mean very much...all sides have to be on board...or you end up with a repeat of Vietnam and Korea where the country is divided...some supporting the US and some attacking the US...
if all sides are not on board I do not see any ' smooth ' resolution to this conflict...or any foreseeable end to it.
Eg ;)
on topic:
The guy had been in the country long enough for his visa to expire...he knew what ' Stop Police ' sounded like even if he didn't understand the exact lingo.
i guess im just hopin for a change of face.
i'm sure someone has a better idea, its just too bad cuz that someone is not the president now.
Bush does what bush wants to do, so we have to wait him out.
Hopefully all of his hidden agendas and the problems associated with them will be alleviated then.
I am dreading them. Time again to vote for the lesser of evils? I desire a change as well. Perhaps some decent person will pop out of the wordwork at te last minute but not likely. I also will NOT support the idea that we should leave Iraq in the hands of fascists so onward the internal civil political war continues... as our parties "groom" their next choices and "groom" our minds to accept their rhetoric.Quote:
i'm eagerly awaiting the 08 elections.....
I understood that. A guy acting like that should be arrested, beated, send to jail 3 weeks and send back to the country where he belongs. Of course he understood "Police stop". As far i know, he did understand english quite well.Quote:
I was simply trying to rationalize why someone would leave a building that was Known to be under surveillance by the British Government, wear a padded winter coat in the middle of summer, enter a subway system that has been attacked several times during the last few weeks, run from the police, and hurtle a turnstile to enter the subway.
But killed? unarmed? already on the floor? that was the problem.
Other problem is that "profile". Everyone who looks like a terrorist will be treated like that?
maybe all foreigners should leave UK. An Indian, South American, Midlle-west will "look" like as a terrorist.
If I were there, i wont never run in the streets :)
Changing the "South American" by "jewish" - what is look like for you?
Hi cacosapo,
Profiling is not about race or racism...it's about identifying the target...Quote:
Changing the "South American" by "jewish" - what is look like for you?
saying that the average serial killer is ' white, male, and between 30-40 ' is not being racist...it's being realistic
and saying that the terrorists who are engaged in bombing the subways are ' arabic or south asian, male, and likely between 20-35 ' is not being racist either
and there is no such thing as a jewish race...jews are semites the same as arabs...jew refers to their tribe Juda...or Judah...arabs and jews are the same race...different ' religions '.
Eg ;)
Racism is a stupid word anyway.. were all of the same race "Homo Sapiens" just different colour and belief..
As long as there is no video material of this arrest (there has to be, tehre are camera's evrywhere in the subway) we won't know if it was his own fault or the police's..
But then again.. the fact that there is no footage (yet) speaks loud to me !!
oh theres video!
just dont hold your breath for the press release....
That is a problem. But so are the surrounding circumstances.Quote:
But killed? unarmed? already on the floor? that was the problem.
The police have arrested one of the four failed bombers now.
Just don't hold your breath waiting for video of the interogation either :)
He is a 24 year old Somalian, living here on an indefinite visa, claiming housing benefits AND Dole / unemployment money ...........
I was out of work, and qualified for NOTHING ......
Yet they find money for scum like this ....................
Governments seem to find money for all types of people that IMHO haven't done anything to deserve it foxy. It happens here in Canada and I would guess it happens in many other places. :rolleyes: Not sure what the answer is, but it really ticks me off to see people enter my country, give somebody a big sad story about how hard their life is and end up getting a house to live in, a job, money from the government, and health care.Quote:
Originally posted here by foxyloxley
I was out of work, and qualified for NOTHING ......
Yet they find money for scum like this ....................
What about us :confused: :confused:
Cheers: