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I read it in the newspaper yesterday morning, its a most horrible thing. People are right when they say it happens more in America, this is a sad truth. Many beleive this is caused by the fact that it is apperently easy to get a firearm. ( I myself have no idea, I do not live or have been to america)
I hope the family can have some peace and that they don't get harrased by the media.
Well, I would suggest that those of us who believe, pray to whomsoever we believe in, for the families involved.
As for "gun control"................ it doesn't work. We had a school shooting in Scotland............. Dunblane............. the government banned pistols as a typical knee jerk reaction............ handgun crime has risen over 200% (that's two hundred percent) since then............
European gun control is largely directed at public safety, rather than criminal activity, or the mentally ill.
OK, I have to get my doctor to sign my renewal form, and I need a couple of "worthies" to sign as well (parish priest and county court clerk do for me;))
Guns are dangerous, as are may other things, so they should be controlled for the public good. This does not mean that it will prevent criminals or nutters............ only scumbag politicians will try to tell you that;)
@ Nihil
Not questioning your post at all but do you have a source for the stat on the rise in handgun crime because I could definitely use that information for some debating going on at other forums regarding gun control which have recently heated up quite a bit?
@ DakX
The ease with which you can get a gun in America varies differently actually. Virginia for example is pretty straight forward with gun laws for the most part: provide two forms of valid identification, fill out all your paperwork right, pass a background check and you can walk out the store the same day with the gun provided you have the money. Probably the three biggest areas where you could be denied the gun (other than failing the background check of course) would be if you have renounced your citizenship, admit to being a drug addict, or having been committed to the care of the state against your will (aka put into a mental institution). Some states enforce waiting periods I believe, and in some places like NYC and its various borroughs you will have to jump through alot more hoops.
The problem here is not the fact that it was easy to get the gun, the dude met all the legal requirements to obtain a firearm, the problem is that we can't read minds and we don't always catch the crazies before they go off the chart and hurt others. Truthfully we will never get to that point because that would require people to be completely honest all the time and that just wont happen.
Hi Syini666,
I am afraid that I don't have an online link. I got it from the BBC TV news........
The actual topic was street crime, street gangs and drugs :( Yes, we have the same problems over here.
My point was that firearm + mental illness is relatively rare, and the "legality" of the firearm is pretty much irrelevant? so "law" does not work here? Nutters are nutters and will do their own thing.
It is a very sad event, but I do not think that you can legislate against it, simply because you cannot legislate against mental illness.
You can legislate to make things a bit safer, like authorised dealers, type and calibre, amount of ammo, safe storage, and the like............
I am trying to be positive here............. maybe a link from health and social welfare to gun registration? OK my Doc has to sign that I am no more crazy than the rest of his patients, but that is only once every 4 years!
But we have a National (State funded) Health Service, so we could probably do that. In the USA it would not be possible?
In this case and Columbine I don't think that there was any real evidence of mental instability prior to the event?
Actually in the case of Columbine if I recall details correctly Eric Harris (who was arguably the force behind it, Klebold was just a follower) was on an antidepressant medication but quit prior to the attacks after he was turned down by the United States Marine Corps.
Linking criminal records to mental health records would probably be the best move that could come out of all this, since to the best of my knowledge criminal records currently do not contain mental health information if the person has a clean record, but I can see where the complaints with this would come in the form of people saying that by linking the two it would be considering people with mental health as criminals without them ever committing a crime.
Seems to me if you take guns out of the equation there would be less gun related deaths? or is this just a fantasy?
Yes there are always going to be the losers out there who will have access to a firearm and use it to carry out their manifesto or whatever, Imho I believe they should make it as hard as possible to qualify for a gun, I think a 30 day waiting period so all avenues of investigation into the application can take place and medical background checks should be a part of it...maybe just maybe if this guy's police report from a previous fire disturbance had of been available to the gun shop across from the VT university, this guy wouldn't qualify.:rolleyes:
How many times have you heard of kids having access to Uncle I'm so stupid's handgun that they find in the nightstand, if it was locked up in a certified location, these deaths of children wouldn't take place, and sure some advocate is going to say, well if I lock up the guns how can I protect myself from an intruder...get a dog, a big dog...
I have no beef with responsible gun owners, but at some point what happens when a "responsible" gun owner loses his/her cool and because the weapon was available used it to commit a crime...oh well too late so sad....
The ones who advocate concealed weapons are truly delusional, to say that suppose one of the students had of had a gun, maybe they could have stopped this guy....woulda, coulda,shoulda....hindsight is alway's 20-20, but why stop there, lets equip/arm all 26,000 students and oh yeah the 10,000 employees at the university, I am sure the ratio of nutcases being approx 2% of 36,000 will ensure that the majority of the students will remain safe, allowing for the fudge factor of course, give or take a percentage point...:rolleyes:
Ok, so I skimmed some of this and no way am I answering individual posts here. Spending days away from forums results in too much backlog :P
Lets start with the whole "You can kill someone with a hammer/car/knife/toothpick" arguments.
Yes, that is true. HOWEVER a hammer is a tool used to hammer nails. Cars get me from A to B. Guns have one purpose and one purpose alone - to kill. As for the relative merits of guns vs knives say, I don't think I could walk up to 30 people and stab them. I'm not strong enough and bursting into their room covered in blood might raise peoples suspicions. However, I do think I could walk round and shoot 30 people.
Availability of guns.
Right, if someone wants a gun they will get it. However, with guns being legal just about ANYONE can get one. That means that not only is it a quick trip to a shop to get one but there could already be several in the house for when you do decide to go nuts. I'm not saying outlawing guns would stop this from ever occuring, but I do think it would reduce the frequency. Also consider this - what if a guy breaks into your house, finds your gun then shoots you with your own gun when you try and confront him?
Police taking more action...
Well, if it was me I would think "two dead people, killer gone, well this was tragic" not "oh look, two dead people. I expect this killer will most likely wait two hours then go kill 30 more people" its just not normal (as far as murdering anyone is normal).
Perhaps the 30 dead always played loud music when the guy was trying to sleep. That could well explain it. Hey, perhaps he played a lot of violent computer games because we all know that turns people into rampaging murderers.
Somewhat nitpicky, but they have 2 purposes. To kill/injure, and to intimidate. Not every firearm drawn is fired.
(and you can hammer nails with em :D)
Oh boy...
OK first I've read the posts since my last one and I just want to point out the old West of the US. Remember history class? The duals where two people met at high noon and one died?
Why is no one bringing this up? Were those cow boys playing Doom and listening to Body Count and Ice - T when they were killing people ? If they were I'd love to have a time machine because those must be RARE albums after 300 or so years.
Video games don't breed violence. I shoot guns and play Doom a lot, I listen to music thta scares people and watch underground horror which is as violent as it gets and most are banned in a lot of countries.
I haven't shot anyone with a real gun with intent to kill them. I've experimented with things that change how you think and feel too, so basically I've done everything people here have blamed on violence without the violence side effect. I can't kill someone. I don't believe it's right to shoot someone and kill them.
Unless it's self defence,but even then I'm big enough to probably not need a weapon.
This is a computer security site meaning most of you have been using a computer for YEARS longer than me, in all those times, I'm sure most of you have played Doom and smoked pot and watched some violent movies.
Berkeley is known for two things; BSD, and LSD, and Intel has a company policy against playing Doom specifically. That alone is a mix of what we're talking about yet everyone here seems to be against school shootings, so explain that.
Time for Statistical Analysis....
The argument goes like this... if guns were outlawed, and a founding principle of gun ownership by citizens to counter the big ass guns owned by a government military, we would all be safer.
So lets take a look, and pick a year. How about 2003:
14,000 homicides. 9,000 involved firearms and out of the 9,000 almost 400 were justifiable, meaning police taking someone from the gene pool.
5,000 not related to guns. And this ONLY includes homicide not other death factors. Here is a breakdown of firearm death by region and percentage. Most in the high 60 percentile that means about 32 percent of those murders are by other than handgun.
Northeast 61.9
Midwest 68.1
South 67.7
West 67.8
By giving up some freedom we are less likely to be killed by a firearm? Perhaps but I'll take freedom and we are much more likely to be killed in other ways regardless of anything else.
I was thinking 14,000 out of 300,000,000 isn't bad. In fact if you remove the criminal element, those who are outside of the law anyway regardless of regulation and controls, you achieve a ratio of 3,000 gun murders out of 300,000,000 people. Now lets flip, what are our leading causes of death? Back to our target year:
Traffic fatalities: 38,444 car crashes killing over 47,000 people. Just over 3 times the number of gun fatalities. Want to help and leave the constitution alone? Improve traffic safety, don't let idiots buy a gun and don't let them drive either? Over 5,000 of those deaths were pedestrians and bicyclist just putting along. Minding their own business.
Right now You are more likely to die of:
Heart disease: 654,092
Cancer: 550,270
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 150,147
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 123,884
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 108,694
Diabetes: 72,815
Alzheimer's disease: 65,829
Influenza/Pneumonia: 61,472
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 42,762
Septicemia: 33,464
Just about 4 times more people die of the Flu. Take that anti-gun motivation factor and buy vaccines. You get a better return on effort. Assuming the goal is to reduce what I call an unnecessary death.
Almost HALF a million peole died from accidents around their home! I was thinking of that hanging off my roof hanging Christmas lights this year...
Besides the constitutional argument many make a case for protection in a nation with so much freedom. Maybe that will be my next topic since this is getting long.
//EDIT I know it's tragic that these kids died. In 2003 your child was more likely to be killed by a babysitter than a hand gun. That's a tough statistic no?
Source o matic:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/03cius.htm
http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/lcwk9_2003.pdf
Genghis Khan never had a gun, nor Alexander, or the Roman amy or those bastard Vikings. ;) Before the pistol there were duals by sword. Guns haven't been around that long really, in the timeline of our human history.Quote:
Why is no one bringing this up? Were those cow boys playing Doom and listening to Body Count and Ice - T when they were killing people ? If they were I'd love to have a time machine because those must be RARE albums after 300 or so years.
Statistics can be fun eh!
To me these would fall under the catagory of "self imposed" as opposed to someone else making your choice for you..:rolleyes:
Okay....still apples and oranges here...even the traffic fatalities are not really a fair comparison, notice they didn't list AIDS (unless it's under Influenza/Pneumonia as these are the symptons, so not nescessarily the flu).Quote:
Right now You are more likely to die of:
Heart disease: 654,092
Cancer: 550,270
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 150,147
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 123,884
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 108,694
Diabetes: 72,815
Alzheimer's disease: 65,829
Influenza/Pneumonia: 61,472
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 42,762
Septicemia: 33,464
But then we could blame the Tobbacco industry for the Heart and cancer deaths, Diabetes on Big Mac's, Chronic Lower Respiratory or Asthma on Industry, not up on my Medical knowledge for the others, unless bad acid can be used for the Alzheimer's problems, in which case we can blame the Pharmaceutical companies.
Ignoring the problems will not make them go away....
True, it would be irrational to think we could ever get that number down to zero, however I think anything that can reduce that number is a step in the right direction..then maybe we wouldn't be discussing these events all the time..Quote:
I was thinking 14,000 out of 300,000,000 isn't bad
I would agree, we know how to reduce the risks of MOST of those diseases. AIDS isn't listed because it is not a big killer. If you look those are in order of the Top 10, so if you keep going you see that even a greater number of deaths are attributed. Making my personal analysis even more shocking. Outside of health, I would call a death by car also not self imposed however. Very few people intentionally get into an accident. Traffic fatalities and accidents around the home or for the most part not self imposed. Especially the 5000 people who weren't even in a car when they died of a traffic fatality.Quote:
To me these would fall under the catagory of "self imposed" as opposed to someone else making your choice for you..
Want to blame a tobaco company? Blame Al Gore. :eek:
If I didn't think it was a fair comparison I wouldn't have posted. ;) To me it is fair. The idea behind the debate is to reduce risk over the cost of the freedom to own a firearm. By my calculation, not comparing any other factor than just gun related death, and if I remove the criminal element; we are giving up a constitutional right to be approximately 1 percent safer. Assuming that is even a correct theory. That, doesn't jive for me.Quote:
Okay....still apples and oranges here...even the traffic fatalities are not really a fair comparison,
I feel the gun debate is more an emotional one than logical.
This is where we differ then on the word "accident", a homicide or gun related death due to someone else consciously pulling the trigger is not an accident, also there is no such thing as an "accident" when it comes to home injuries or vehicles, all mishaps are preventable where possible. Cars are supposed to be road worthy, if not why not? The car stopped in front of you as you run up their arse has stopped for a reason, why were you so close that you didn't allow for enough time to stop, this applies to all road conditions. The person jaywalking suddenly in front of a 2 ton vehicle is preventable if that person jaywalking had of used a designated crosswalk or traffic intersection, the person running inot said jaywalker probably should have been aware of pedestrians walking across the street, all preventable, an accident is like an act of God...such as a lightning strike, very unnavoidable.....falling off the ladder while putting up Christmas lights is also preventable, did they have a second person to ensure the ladder wouldn't slide of the gutter's/eavestroughs. Was the oven burner left on when little susy burned herself, or was the boiling pot of water left to boil and the handle sticking out so little susy would bump into it and scald herself, did the Tim Allen type dude ensure the wiring he was doing was certified by a qualified electrician, did they have their chimney recently cleaned of soot...all preventable...Quote:
Traffic fatalities and accidents around the home or for the most part not self imposed
We like to write everything off to, "it was an accident" the tree jumped out in front of me, same with people who avoid hitting animals but then go face to face with the oncoming car, result...cat's fine but the occupants of both vehicles are part of the dashboards...very preventable, your supposed to run into the animal to avoid complicating everything by causing more mishaps and endangering others.
So I don't believe it is a fair comparison to use what is essentially preventable deaths to those that are unpreventable such as being shot by someone who is making the choice for you...
So if all mishaps are preventable when possible, what are they called when prevention is IMpossible? Those aren't accidents?
Define for me a mishap that is impossible to avoid, think about it, there really is no such thing as an accident, all actions have reactions, I mentioned a true accident is one such as a lightning strike or Hurricane or where nature has decided your outcome, with the exception of course of natural death...but Doctors are trying their level best to reverse that.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPnyc
From Websters..Out of ordinary calculation, the car ahead of you stopping suddenly may be unforseen at that point, but if you drive carefully and defensively you will be able to avoid running up that person's arse, same goes with just about everything else, if I choose to jaywalk and get run over by a semi, it's not an accident for the driver of the truck because I chose to walk across the street at that moment in time, however if with due diligence the driver being alert and fit (not on bennies and not on a cell phone) he may be able to react in time to not run over the stupid jaywalker...if the chainsaw suddenly cuts off your leg below the knee, is this an accident or a) you were tired b) distracted c) careless d) into pain e) trying to get out of the way of the falling tree you just cut.Quote:
Accident, in Law, is equivalent to casus, or such unforeseen, extraordinary, extraneous interference as is out of the range of ordinary calculation.
With foresight most industrial/domestic mishaps can be prevented, usually requires education and common sense as well as good safety protocols.
Most of everything we buy today comes with warning lables or cautions, yet we don't see any of these on firearms, such as "this is the safety catch" or "pulling trigger may be hazardous to your health or others", or "please put in a secure cabinet and keep away from children"...:rolleyes:
That's too easy. You're driving down a country road and a tree falls on your car.
Easy...Lol...okay calculate the odds and find me facts to back that one up...:DQuote:
Originally Posted by JPnyc
A few things...
1. Did the wind blow it down (big wind,what were you doing driving) if so then it is considered an act of God which is an accident
2. Was the tree cut and left to stand until a gust of wind blew it down...(preventable)
3. Was the tree dead and fell as a result of infestation (again Nature so it is an accident).
4. Was the tree part of an ecosystem that had been damaged or changed by man (preventable)
RoadClosed provided some very good factual information and I agree with his point of view as do many Americans. During the 1990's when the "Assault" weapons ban was passed, it was highly controversial because in essence they were nothing more than a semi automatic firearm that had the intimidating appearance. That ban passed by a handful of votes. Most of those who supported the ban felt that it was OK because conventional firearms weren't being considered. Statistics have shown that they were not popular weapons of criminals. The simple hand gun is used in nearly all crimes as well as home defense. I think it is sad that the politicians are trying to forward their political agenda through this tragedy.
We can't legislate this behavior out of our lives. No way. I think that we as a country need to take a deeper look at ourselves and try to figure this out once and for all. Games, Movies, Music, and Guns are always being blamed for these events. I say the problem is bigger than that. We need to look at what has changed in the last 20 or so years that may be contributing to the mass violence that we have just seen. Up to about the late 1980's or early 1990's, Americans seldom saw such acts of violence. This behavior was unheard of! The gun laws were less prevalent as they are now. Machine guns were legal in America up to the 1960's. We all played "Army" or "Cowboys and Indians" or arcade games, and we all watched violent movies and TV shows. The cartoons were even violent! The music was just as heavy. Yet these mass murders weren't happening.
I think we need to look beyond the usual political debate and find the real problem in our country.
I want to start by saying how horrible this is and how after seeing some of the pictures and videos of this guy I want to know why no one stepped in and took action to at least help him. Most seem to put in a small effort or even report him to police (he stalked some girls on 2005, students and professors said he wrote about murder and violence at length), but they never followed up or had a counselor visit him to talk.
People can say it isn't their responsibility to help him and that they are too caught up in their own life to help others, but this is something that could have been prevented.
I can't imagine what the parents/families are going through. The fact this kid basically tried to be a copycat of the Columbine thing just boils my blood and you would think since that happened in 1999 that people would take a closer look at those who are disturbed mentally or show signs of being very violent/suicidal. But I guess most are concerned about Terrorists entering our country now-a-days.
Here is an idea I remember hearing a few years back...guns can be bought for what they go for now. Each bullet should cost a ton if not thousands of dollars.
There was an experiment about this actually.. and ud be surprised about the result. They had kids, never been exposed to violent video games before.. they separate them into groups... one set playing kiddish games, and others playing violent games. then after hours of letting them play the games, they let them play on the playground.. guess who turned out to be agressive towards other kids... its the group that played kiddish games.Quote:
Video games don't breed violence. I shoot guns and play Doom a lot, I listen to music thta scares people and watch underground horror which is as violent as it gets and most are banned in a lot of countries.
the fact that the violent games gave out-put to the kids' agression.. essentially after playing the game, they were mentally exhausted to be agressive to other kids, comapred to the ones that played those kiddish games...
another fact. guns are just tools. if u want to kill someone, u will find a way, gun or no gun. where i grew up, guns were never used. all they used were ice-picks, knives, any sharp and pointy object. if they wanna mass murder, a machette is always available. just go to the nearest crowded place and start swinging like crazy.
given that guns makes the job easier, banning guns will not solve the problem.
what u society needs is to care. care about the ppl next to u, if u know something is seriously bothering them, help them. u never know, just talking to one person, u may have saved many lives on that very day. if u happened to be on the right place and the right time, and managed to talk this guy into changing his mid, this event wouldnt have happened.
I have been teaching hunter and firearm safety for 5 years now. IMHO there are no firearm accidents. Let me explain.
Rule 1: do not point a gun at anything you do not intend to shoot or kill.
Rule 2: treat every firearm as if it were loaded.
Rule 3: do not rely on a "safety", they are mechanical and can fail
Secure your firearms when not in use, preferrably not loaded. Even better secure the ammo in a second location.
Follow those rules and there are no firearm "accidents". If you own firearms teach those that live with you the rules as well.
I know, you're not cool unless you've got a loaded Glock stuck down the waistband of your pants.
Hmmmm,
What strikes me as strange is that the Second Amendment is Constitutional, yet gun control isn't Federal? Different rules in different states doesn't really help.
I came across this:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3052278&page=1
If you have a detention order for mental illness you should be on a register of people not fit to have guns.
This does not criminalise mental illness, it is plain common sense for the good of the individual and the community.
Hey, if you have epilepsy you won't get to be an airline pilot?
Another improvement would be to adopt a system like we use in Europe. You get the licence FIRST which means you can be checked more thoroughly. This would also get round the problem of there being no background check for private (legal) sales?
If I had the paperwork that came with my newest rifle on hand I could photocopy for you the pages where all of the above and more are covered. The guide goes over basic safety concepts, safe handling, unloading, loading, and all the safety mechanisms built into the weapon. It also came with a lock that allows me to renter the weapon completely useless to anybody other than the person with the key, when its locked up you can't even put a magazine into the gun or load a single round into the chamber.Quote:
Originally Posted by dalek
As for your idea that most everything but acts of god are preventable that would require for the world and everybody into it to be perfect and that just a realistic expectation at all. Land owners cant spend every single day inspecting all the trees on the border of their land to ensure they aren't a danger to the road next to it. I cannot just say I wont drive because its windy, raining outside, or snowing; life dictates that things have to get done and most employers don't like to hear whine stories from their employees that it was too windy to drive to work and will be quick to inform you that you need to find a new job.
Try this for an idea of an unavoidable accident: I'm driving down the highway in the left hand lane (observing the posted speed limit). Its a split highway with two lanes on either side of a grass median. As I pass a slower car in the right hand lane their front drivers side tire blows out as they run over a tiny but sharp piece of road debris and their car moves over towards me in fractions of a second. I can slam on the brakes at the speed of 65mph and send the car behind me plowing into my rear end and still likely be hit by the car with the blown out tire due to the fact that their speed starts dropping immediately as the rim contacts pavement, I can swerve into the median to avoid them and quite likely loose control as my tires leave the asphalt and likely wind up going into oncoming traffic, hitting a tree, sign or parked state police cruise shooting radar, or I can slam on the gas to try to get out of the way and risk loosing control of the vehicle at higher speeds. Mind you I have to calculate the probabilities of all of these outcomes in less than a second and make commit to my choice in the remaining time and even then my vehicle unless it is a finely tuned performance vehicle may not be physically capable of avoiding the situation.
In the above situation the variable that makes this a hard to avoid situation is that the other driver has to make a choice as well and their choice has to be the right one to fight the wheel and try to bring the vehicle safely off the road, thus in such a situation my options are very bad, all of them carry a very high risk of causing damage to my vehicle, my person and possibly others as well. At that point my fate lies in the hands of the other person to react in the perfect way with exacting precision. Since I can't control them and their decision or reaction speed I have to do the best I can which still will likely end badly.
As for the diseases which you passed off as self-imposed I have only one word: heredity.
31 dead in a school?
Sounds like Baghdad on any given day. That same day,
over a hundred people were killed by car bombs there.
Tragic, indeed.
We're lucky we live in a place where things like this are
an exception, rather than the rule.
Ok, so some more counter points.
Gun safety.
Storing the gun and ammo in seperate lock boxes is a great idea. Its very safe. I agree with that. However, for those that buy guns to defend their homes that is not an option. Opening two lock boxes in the dark while someone is creeping round the house? not very practical. Obviously this can be taken to mean I think guns should be stored loaded and ready, but I take it to mean a gun is pretty useless for home defense.
As for violent video games - I was being sarcastic :P. Violent TV/Games doesn't make people violent. These people who go to copy the video games have something wrong with them in the first place. The video game gave them the idea but not the intent.
Finally statistics. Quote me as many accident reports as you like. Tell me more people are injured each year by paper clips than guns if you want (I think its true, I don't remember the numbers). But here are two counter points to that: Paperclips are a common item. I'd bet everyone has at least 10 they can think of. I have about 50,000 of the things on the shelf behind me. Therefore, per paperclip the accident rate is quite low. Per gun however I expect it is a lot higher. Same with cars. I'd imagine everyone drives once a day. Therefore its a daily gamble that you might crash. I doubt that you can say on average people use guns daily.
lies, damn lies and statistics. Statistics can prove anything taken out of context.
"In a test 7 out of 10 people said they prefered coke" (The other choice was water)
or one of my favourites was on breastcancercare.org.
"Where do you get most of your breast cancer information?
* Library
* Health Official
* Online"
Unsurprisingly the online pole revealed most people get information online. Gee.
finally..."they should have helped/seen it coming"
WTF? do you study your friends for signs that they are about to murder 30 people? even if they do write violent plays. I mean, someone has to write all these violent movies and games we all love so much. (doom used to scare the **** out of me btw, even in pseudo 3d. Doom 3 was really brown trousers time)
Point being, I don't think ANYONE could have seen this coming. Maybe he was odd and a bit twisted, but so are a LOT of people.
Person behind you is tailgating...(preventable).Quote:
I can slam on the brakes at the speed of 65mph and send the car behind me plowing into my rear end
In most cases it will be the rear tires that blow out due to the front tire lifting up the sharp object so that the rear tire runs over the upright object, otherwise glass is flat, nails lay flat.Quote:
their front drivers side tire blows out as they run over a tiny but sharp piece of road debris
Yep, but still all preventable if safe driving habits or practises are taken.Quote:
At that point my fate lies in the hands of the other person to react in the perfect way with exacting precision. Since I can't control them and their decision or reaction speed I have to do the best I can which still will likely end badly.
They can if they are involved in a woodlot and or clearcutting their land, and AFAIK most municipalities or rural areas will have zoning bylaws which will ensure all private property that abuts onto public roads are cleared of debris and are made safe.Quote:
Land owners cant spend every single day inspecting all the trees on the border of their land to ensure they aren't a danger to the road next to it.
If you practise defensive driving you will avoid mishaps, even if the other drivers are at fault, because you will be driving under the premise that all other drivers are idiots and that you need to be alert.
Blaming things on "accidents" is another way of saying I am not responsible or I am not accountable, which is it for you...:rolleyes:
As for my remarks about labels on guns, maybe I should have marked it [facetous]...[/facetous]. also as an adult I am sure you can understand all the written material that comes with the weapon, probably more so then say a 6 yr old...
As for heredity being your answer to my "self imposed", try telling that to a person who has been exposed to second hand smoke for a few years and develops lung cancer and there is no recorded history of it in the family, or that the person who had a massive heart attack because their lifestyle contributed to it smoking/unhealthy diets, lack of exercise etc. and there is no family history of heart failures.I could go on, but I think you get the point.
dalek in your world there are no chance encounters. Everything is preventable. Thats fine, my signature both accepts and denys that ... in a very round about way. Doesn't change the core meaning of my post. In terms of safety and chance of dying by gun or the unkown. Even if it seems like an unfair comparisson to you. To you it is unfair to say you are much more likely to die standing on a street corner than get shot by a gun. Regardless of the intentional or non-intention motivation of that event. I am not emotionally tied to this issue. I have no desire to spin one way or another, except that to me it's as much a right as the right to have an abortion under our consitutional law. And like abortion I can go either way but I have a preference for the constitution.
You said nothing about frequency or likelihood of occurrence. You just said give me a situation that is unavoidable.Quote:
Originally Posted by dalek
Touch'e....:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by JPnyc
School shootings are easy to prevent. If you see someone getting picked on, step in, stop it. Every school shooting I've seen was kids who got picked on and eventually couldn't take it anymore so they came in and mowed them down.
My Fiancee and I were talking about this earlier in the morning, if our kid ever comes home saying he picks on some kid at school and beats him and mentally abuses them like these kids go through I'll just pop a Columbine clip on youtube up and point.
Video games, gun, movies, music, none of that is half as deadly as mental and physical abuse that most people don't realise even happens in schools. I've seen people beaten badly in school by a group of kids and no one did a thing.
I used to get jumped about twice a day by a group of skinheads, stabbed ... I think 12 times... no one stopped them, and telling your Parents does NOTHING and makes it worse. They call the kids parents, the kids parents yell at him or talk to him about it, and the kid gets pissed he got ratted out, and does worse.
Or scenerio B:
Parent talks to school instead of other Parent. School does nothing but bitch at the kid, kid gets pissed at being ratted out, does worse.
Hmm.... Win win huh?
My idea:
Stop letting people walk all over kids at schools and the mental and physical abuse. I see parents saying "Oh we were kids too, we survived just fine, it'll toughen you up"....
Well those morons went to school before kids got stabbed in schools, shot in schools, and calling someone "A jive turkey with 4 eyes" is a lot different than shoving them in a bathroom and beating the **** out of them and then going home and talking about it on Myspace so the kid has no where to go to get away from it.
If you want to really solve it grab your kid and beat his ass for doing this type of thing.
lol, I would wager in most cases school "back then" is was way more violent than it is now. We didn't have secuity guards, cameras, metal detectors etc. No one brought a gun to school because they had a fist. So I wager today kids are less emotionally secure and mature. You couldn't even question a teachers stance both at school and at home. The words "I didn't do anything" did not exist everything was our fault not the teachers, the other kids, or the situation. Conflict resolution today is a gun because it doesn't take balls to pull the trigger. It's like the kid who throws a rock and runs away. I can't tell you how many times my head was in a toliet or how many fights came my way and I grew up in a small white bred Chrisitan town full of union liberals. Lol. Every one I knew had a knife or a gun, hell people had guns in their back windows in the ****ing school parking lot.Quote:
Well those morons went to school before kids got stabbed in schools, shot in schools, and calling someone "A jive turkey with 4 eyes" is a lot different than shoving them in a bathroom and beating the **** out of them and then going home and talking about it on Myspace so the kid has no where to go to get away from it.
I don't buy that for one moment. If you are the victim of bullying you have specific targets .........most of these shootings have been random, and the perp has been found to be mentally disturbed if not certifiably insane.Quote:
School shootings are easy to prevent. If you see someone getting picked on, step in, stop it. Every school shooting I've seen was kids who got picked on and eventually couldn't take it anymore so they came in and mowed them down.
I think by the very nature of the crime the perpetrator would necessarily HAVE to be insane. There simply isn't any other possibility.
Not to be picky...:D but does that mean suicide bombers are insane or just have a warped sense of reality, or belief?Quote:
Originally Posted by JPnyc
Suicide bombers are different. They believe that they are fighting for a cause, they "don't hear the voices" ;)
In that respect you could say that they have a warped sense of reality or belief, probably assisted by a generous measure of brainwashing.
There is quite a difference between a suicide bomber trying to achieve a military, political or religious objective and some psycho wandering into a school and shooting people at random, for no reason other than they are psychos.
Another example would be the Japanese forces in WWII..............kamikaze?
Also, suicide bombers are funded, organised, and directed...... psychos are not :cool:
Suicide bombers have a specific target, organisation and are willing to give their life for something they believe in. IMO it sounds more like this guy got sick of life and decided to take as many with him as possible. Very similar ideals I know, but its priorities.
Suicide bombers want to make a point and death is incidental. This guy wanted to die and the killings were incidental.
You just listed the plot to HAlloween 6 ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by nihil
Anyway I should have been more clear on my last post. I meant the Columbine kids as being picked on. Like I said, a friend of mine knew them and they had something they kept tabs on who basically picked on them.
I think you dudes have suicide bombers all wrong. They are more like these people than you think. They are weak and used. We tend to glorify their actions, but in reality groups seek out the underprivileged and the emotional disturbed outsiders from their own societies. In some cases they are women who have been shamed in their own society and men with no futures. They have a pecking order over there, more extreme than our own. The glorified intelligent hateful bomber with a score to settle on the stage of world injustice is rare. People like that are the one's pulling the strings not pulling the trigger. Now what about these families that say things like .... "my son is a bold man and a hero, god is with him in paradise and we rejoice in his martyrdom, Allah has shone his light on us" ... for blowing up 10 year old school girls in a cafe? Does that sound bold and intelligent? Their son is a tool to people infinitely more intelligent than they. They blow themselves up because they are disturbed, just like these guys in Columbine or VA Tech. They don't do it because of a Caliphate. The are brained washed religious zombies.
Hi gore,
Sorry, I just do not buy that at all. Your friend did not know the Columbine killers. By sight perhaps............well I know G.W. Bush by sight :eek:
I will accept the FBI's senior psychologist's analysis that Harris was a delusional psycopath and that Klebold was a "follower". He discounted the "bullying myth".
I suspect that it was more like a case we had over here in the 1960's regarding what are known as the "Moors Murderers" these were two young adults (male & female) that sexually abused and murdered about a dozen juveniles over a period of time. This was a sort of "fatal attraction" as the shrinks of the time described it............... if they hadn't found a partner in crime it probably would never have happened.
Now, let us consider why this (Columbine) wasn't a "typical school shooting"?
1. The weapon of choice was IEDs (Improvised Explosive Devices)..........NOT firearms.
2. It was planned for over a year.
3. It wasn't an opposing subculture (a.k.a. "gang warfare") thing.
4. If those devices had worked as intended, you would have been looking at a death toll of around 500?
#4 tells me it was not some poor little wimps bullied by jocks?
The best way to deal with jocks is massage "Raljex" into their jock straps............
:fpissed: