Human Cloning

To choose between a significant other or my dog. My answer, both or neither.... honestly.

A hypothetical, but likely situation for you to consider.
You have a child who is 10 years old. She is the dearest thing you have ever seen, But she has a terminal disease that could be solved with cells of cloned tissue. However, there is a catch, for this technique to be completed they must come from that of a human embryo.... There are many people disagreeing that this procedure should be allowed, but this is *your* daughters life here..... which side of the line would you stand on.

Many of our arguments, not all however, fail to recognise through ignorance or prior beliefs the veiws of those who are in need, or whose relatives are sick and need treatment. Take some time and think what your reaction would be if someone who was dying, but could be helped, was a family member of yours. Where would you stand... and why? and based on what principles?

Im not saying any one view is right. but should one persons view be allowed to hinder anothers?

Only through these intitial stages can we reach something more desireable. We never reached the moon without blowing up a few monkeys beforehand.

And a little obscure fact you can all chew on is that for 90% of the procedures that did require an embryo, there are now more advanced alternatives that do *not* require this sort of pre-human life to be destroyed. One fact that has been carefully obscured by the media at large to continue one large hype session. The other 10% is well on its way as well.

Wamphyr

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Originally posted by Negative

I DO believe a human life is worth more than that of an animal, just like I believe a horse's life is worth more than that of a fly.

And Ouroboros: I'm pretty sure Remote WOULD mind... Why? Because he's human ;)
And that 'feeling of sympathy' is, amongst others, what distinguishes human beings from animals...

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This is speciesism... but true... when you are at a boat with two humans and a dog and the boat is overloaded... which one are you going to dump... I think most of us will dump the dog...

About cloning: several points against:

- we don't know about long term medical problems with clones
What if the clones have some involuntary defections...?

- psychosocial problems, like the identity problem stated by Negative
the problem goes for both sides... the cloned child does exactly know how she or he is going to be... help. Next this clone could be able to know her/his own death: if the original dies from a hart disease the clone will know that this could happen to her/him too.
Identity is a very strong argument against cloning

- Ethical issues... the nazi's tried to perform eugenetics... when we are able to clone we will only clone people that look and are like the standard describes. We will clone good/perfect people and that's the same objective the Nazi's wanted to accomplish with their Arien race. For instance all girls will look the same following the current life form and set of rules and habbits that create this form. At a first glance this is very good all are beautifull ... but at second thought... all individuality will be lost, the same goes for creativity. It will anounce the end of the human race like it is now. And introduce a new race of all look a likes. The unique differences will be lost.

Now, we've all seen The Matrix, and probably Dracula.
Maybe they want to farm millions of clones,
who could be legally classified as "non-human"
(because those in power will make these decisions),
suck the life essense from them so that an elite upper
class could have "eternal life".
In Lord of the Rings, the ringwraiths lusted for power
and recieved unnatural long life, but paid a terrible
price. Personally, I'm glad that god has imposed a time
limit on a person's life.
It limits the amount of mischief any one individual
can perpetrate. When scientific technicians try
to dismiss religious input on this issue, it is an
illegitemate attempt to force conclusions before
there has been a full debate.
Scientists have no special unassailable status that
entitles them to make these decisions without
my input.
:cool:

Just remembered another movie - GATTICA. Tell me you want the world to end up like this?? NO WAY!!!

We live in a world where anything can happen. Things are left to chance. What if we were to take cloning to the ultimate level? It leads to the question - "Should we play GOD?". I think not. Life is a wonderful thing and yes, if we can preserve someones life by surgery, by all means - ofcourse. But where is the line drawn?

When I think of cloning, the first thing that pops in my head is a mirror image of myself standing right next to me, having the exact same features I do - that's a scary thought, and one I wouldn't like to come true. But we all know this isn't all cloning is.

If we think about the long term effects of cloning - will we see something similar to GATTICA? It's not easy to figure out where this line should be drawn. Who wouldn't mind seeing a world where your child is born and doctor's can tell you exactly how it's life would turn out - at what age it will die, from what cause, etc. We say, 'oh, it'll never happen' - but I believe it can happen. I would hate for it to happen, but it can. Many years ago people would have thought it is impossible to stitch someones hand off once it's been lost - but it has been done. People would have thought it be impossible to create an artificial heart and save someone's life with it - but now, it has been done.

The we now think is impossible, can come true. We cannot just let cloning be and see what happens with it, there have to be limits.

I sometimes think to myself - how the hell have we come to the stage we are at now. I mean think about it, many many many years ago - there was nothing. When humans first came about - cavemen as they say - there was nothing but the land, grass, trees, rocks. And now what?? We have computers, televisions, phones, cars, planes - I mean it's really amazing if you really think about it - anyways, I find that really fascinating.

I mean tell me really, in the times of the 'caveman' or whatever, say for example a couple (caveman, cavewoman) lived together and one was out - did the one who was home think first, 'hmm...I wonder if there could be a way I can communicate to her when I'm here and she's there, without me going there'. No way, he would of first though, 'where is she, I'm going to find her'. - and now?? 'what's her mobile number again?

Basically, we never know what the future holds, but we must be careful not to make it a bleak future.

(hopefully I didn't drift off the topic here, but you get my point - hopefully) :)

Greg

"Would you mind, then, if i put your kitty in a clamp and kept on tightening the screw?... "
- If I had a kitty, yes I would.

"'feeling of sympathy' is, amongst others, what distinguishes human beings from animals..."
- Thanks for pointing that out Negative. That's another thing about these clones. Will they have the same sympathy as normal humans? What if they knew they were a clone and it frustrated them to the point that they wanted to kill whom ever it is that they were cloned from so they'll be original. Unique. One if a kind. That charateristic is being neglected. And what if the clones didn't have any emotional feelings at all? What would that lead to?

"To choose between a significant other or my dog. My answer, both or neither.... honestly. "
- Honestly I would chose my significant other over my dog hands down.

"which side of the line would you stand on."
- I honestly don't know... I don't have a daughter but IF for some strange reason my son had some terminal illness I don't know what I would chose. On the one hand, I would get to see him grow up and all that but on the other it may cost 1000s of other human embryos. It would be a tough decision if I ever had to chose.

VictorKaum has a good point but this may have been originaly from Negative.
"Identity is a very strong argument against cloning."
- And I couldn't agree with you more. ;)

"Scientists have no special unassailable status that
entitles them to make these decisions without
my input."
- Hehe, it's really not up to you nor I. The government isn't going to stop stem cell research. As far as actual human cloning.. well, when it finaly dose occur I won't be suprised. I'll be disapointed but it's inevitable.

"Just remembered another movie - GATTICA. "
- Sorry, haven't seen that one.

It leads to the question - "Should we play GOD?". I think not. "
- EXACALLY! Creating a human life in a lab is NOT something we should be doing.

"...but you get my point - hopefully"
- Yup, I get the point. :D

Remote_Access_

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Originally posted by Remote_Access_
"Would you mind, then, if i put your kitty in a clamp and kept on tightening the screw?... "
- If I had a kitty, yes I would.

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Ok, I admit that that 'kitty in a clamp' thing was a bit out there, but I was just trying to illustrate the percieved 'sanctity of life' of all creatures, not only human beings; and trying to equate the two by way of the intrinsic value of life in general.

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- Thanks for pointing that out Negative. That's another thing about these clones. Will they have the same sympathy as normal humans? What if they knew they were a clone and it frustrated them to the point that they wanted to kill whom ever it is that they were cloned from so they'll be original. Unique. One if a kind. That charateristic is being neglected.

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That is a damned good point, R_A_; I hadn't thought about it that way. The Clone Wars...very Star Wars-ish, but ENTIRELY possible, come to think of it, given the natural desire to be unique.

Hmmm....got me thinking, now...

Ouroboros

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Originally posted by: Remote_Access_
I do, i find it disturbing when scientist try to play God.

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What God? Is there even a God? ...if not, then are you still correct? Just food for thought :)

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I agree that there cannot be a boundary or 'line' either but I still think that there SHOULD be.

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WTF?! Care to further explain that sentence, I don't quite understand it. Seems like your contradicting yourself there...

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I see your point. Even if a cure is developed for all of these diseases described on the news and all over the internet, it's not going to be for the vast majority of people. It will mainly be for the 'uperclass'.

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Just like computers mate? Just like how the 'upperclass' were only eligible to buy them? Things change...A few years after everything is tested and sorted out, I think these 'prices-to-life' will slowly, but surely, decrease.

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I don't want to extend my time here artificaly. When it's time to go, it's time to go and I'm not going to argue about it.

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Your like my mother :p (no offense). But in all seriousness. If you don't want to live forever, then (if right now there was a syrum to take), simply don't take it. Yet if you do, want to live, that is, for a few extra hundred years...then take it.

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Now the cream isn't that bad but useing what could be future human life is just unreasonable if you ask me.

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The cream isn't bad because it only stops aging for ten years, but 100 is totally out of the question? You say you don't beleive there should be lines for scientists...yet it seems like you make them up on your own.

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Grats and good luck with your studies. :)

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Thanks mate. I hope to graduate from university soon. ;)

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I still have to disagree. There's a big difference between animals and humans.

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Like what? They havn't come up with a silly idea of 'God' or 'Religion'? Or do they just have a lower IQ then humans, therefor they are simply here to die off... Maybe, you have it backwards mate?

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I read some where that doll the sheep has some sort of disease, not sure what it is but points to who ever finds out.

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Yes, and animals who arn't cloned never get diseases? Like I stated in my last post, bad things will happen. It's obvious. But we must learn to work around these things, and push forward.

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Just immagine the terror... WW III

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Well, R_A_, we've already had two of them in a span of fifty years. So if WorldWar III comes, it really sucks to be us... I suggest we all move to some third-world country and stay away from any major city. But thats just me. *Rechecks his tickets to Bolivia...*

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I disagree though. It could happen but that dosen't mean it will..

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Yet again, I fail to understand what exactly you are trying to say...

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Hopefuly mass human cloning isn't going to happen at all.

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Amen, brother. :)

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Once again, when it's time for me to go, it's time for me to go. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

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Then, fair Remote_Access_, I fare you a good time in the 'afterlife' (if you beleive in one at least).

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Hrmm... I love Earth. I don't want to go to a different planet but if anyone dose leave the 'Home Planet' send me a post card.

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Just if you havn't checked your 'Discovery Channel' or 'TLC' stations this past year. The Earth will end. Fortunately for us we won't have to live to experiance it. The sun, when its ready to die, will expand, consuming the Earth... this will, kill all life on Earth. There is no escape, to live on Earth. We must reloacte to another planet, and not any of our 9 rings of stone circling the sun right now. Another sun, another Earth.

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"'feeling of sympathy' is, amongst others, what distinguishes human beings from animals..."
- Thanks for pointing that out Negative. That's another thing about these clones. Will they have the same sympathy as normal humans? What if they knew they were a clone and it frustrated them to the point that they wanted to kill whom ever it is that they were cloned from so they'll be original. Unique. One if a kind. That charateristic is being neglected. And what if the clones didn't have any emotional feelings at all? What would that lead to?

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A clone will have exactly the same feelings a normal person would have. Thats why their called clones. And obviously they will have to be told that they were a clone. But that doesn't make them an animal at all. Just another human. We've had clones since the dawn of man, you see. Thats what we (you) like to call 'twins'...

The identical twin idea is a very good one cause twins are exactly the same as a clone would be (biological) but there's one big difference:

cloning will create the possibility of a big time difference between the two persons (not the case for twins). This time difference is a hugh problem for identity. (like stated above by Negative is this identity very important).

Twins are both the original cause they are twins and social accepted as twins.
A clone will be a clone... all the time this person has to go with the idea that there exist some original...that he or she is just a clone.

Imagine the lawsuits, if cloned people found that they
had some unfortunate medical condition that they
attributed to the cloning process.
Or could the government deny them the same rights
as others.
:cool:

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... all the time this person has to go with the idea that there exist some original...that he or she is just a clone.

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- My thoughts exacally! :)

What God? Is there even a God? ...if not, then are you still correct? Just food for thought"
- That can be another thread. ;)

"WTF?! Care to further explain that sentence, I don't quite understand it. Seems like your contradicting yourself there..."
- Ok.. i should explane a little better. Just because I and a few other individuals think that there SHOULD be a 'line' but that dosen't mean that there is going to be one.

"Just like computers mate? Just like how the 'upperclass' were only eligible to buy them? Things change...A few years after everything is tested and sorted out, I think these 'prices-to-life' will slowly, but surely, decrease."
- Good point. ;)

"Your like my mother (no offense). But in all seriousness. If you don't want to live forever, then (if right now there was a syrum to take), simply don't take it. Yet if you do, want to live, that is, for a few extra hundred years...then take it."
- Heh, thanks. :D I don't want to increase my time here artifically but hey, take it or leave it huh?

"The cream isn't bad because it only stops aging for ten years, but 100 is totally out of the question? You say you don't beleive there should be lines for scientists...yet it seems like you make them up on your own."
- Ermm, you missed my point. I wouldn't mind if it stoped ageing 1000 years as long as it dosen't involve useing 'what-could-be' humans.

"I hope to graduate from university soon. "
- I hope you do to. :D

"So if WorldWar III comes, it really sucks to be us... "
- Yes it dose.. I don't know what 'secret' weaponds are going to be used if/when WW3 occurs but I can tell you WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones. Good post [WebCarnage] ;)

Remote_Access_