Unethical Spying...

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Originally posted here by SoggyBottom
Im with you KorpDeath.

All of the terrible wars, terrorist acts are nearly all motivated by religion, and this has been happening for thousands of years. I think that the FBI have the opinion of "where there is smoke, there is fire".

I whole heartedly agree with the FBI monitoring places of worship etc. if it is going to cease religous fanatics causing more suffering for innocent people.

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Was World War II caused by religion? Was World War I caused by religion? Was the American Civil War caused by religion? Was the Revolutionary War caused by religion? Was the Vietnam War caused by religion? Was the Spanish-American War caused by religion? Was the War of 1812 caused by religion? Was the Korean War caused by religion?

Also, I hope you never get on some government agency's fanatics list. Maybe today it's "religious fanatics." What will it be tomorrow?

PreacherMan I agree with your point of WWII, and my wife being from another country and haven seen the same tatics used there in my life (Phillipines) another common term is Marshall Law used in modern terms. Me I know there is the Creator there is Mother Earth, while they speak in any language all Religion has in the end one voice the spirit, after all if you were a God would you trust all of your knowledge within one people or all people of a common language? Culture is a people their land their ways this has never been respected but by trusted people that history has proven used that trust for their own benefit not for the human race of all people. After all Bush needs to be re-elected as many others they make a problem call alert intrude upon everything. Not one network have not seen one person in the media ask one simple question that be this "What American Policy here or abroad has made these people hate our goverment and companys so mush to kill us?" Answer is I visited my wife's homeland over Christmas, gone the local music replaced by Rap (nothing wrong with it) American Fastfood, was sad there was little left of the culture I knew 8 years ago. Face it America not every conutry is America leave the culture intact. Lost cause maybe not travel anywahre over seas..you will understand Ugly American does not mean just white person now...Enough..Peace is a good word..making War easy Peace is hard and diffcult cause we all have to first understand one another...I want to understand..hope I have time :D

I'm sure this has been pointed out before, but this is also a very hot topic in Europe at the moment. A good summary of what is happening can be found at www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/25483.html .
To quote their report:

A campaign has been launched to persuade Members of the European Parliament to reject proposals on data retention which critics believe will have grave civil liberties implications.

A debate on general data retention of communications for law enforcement authorities, scheduled for tomorrow and Thursday in Brussels, is critical, as it constitutes the major step before the final adoption of the new EU Communications Data Protection Directive.

The European Commission put forward a proposal on 12 July 2000 to introduce a number of non-controversial amendments to the EU Directive on privacy in the telecommunications sector.

By early last year it became clear that the Council of the European Union (which consists of ministerial level reps from each of the 15 governments) intended to use this opportunity to effect major changes to meet the long-standing demands by law enforcement agencies for the retention of all traffic and location telecommunications data (phone-calls, e-mails, faxes and internet usage) and access to it.

In reaction to September 11, the Council decided that the issue of data retention - not only to combat terrorism but crime in general - should be a priority.

In November 2001 the plenary session of the European Parliament adopted a first reading position which opposed the Council's demands.

This view was confirmed at the second reading in the Committee on Citizens' Freedoms and Rights on April 18 2002.

Machevelian
Last week, however, the PSE/socialist group in the European Parliament joined the EPP/conservative group and accepted the demands of EU governments and law enforcement agencies to place communications under surveillance. They have tabled an amendment which reverses the Parliament's previous opposition to data retention, in a move described by critics as a 'cave in' which will do little to combat terrorism.

Tony Bunyan, Statewatch editor, said: "The EU governments already have all the powers they need under the existing Directive to combat terrorism, this measure has nothing to do with terrorism. The proposal by the EU governments is a cynical exploitation of public sentiment to introduce draconian powers to potentially place the whole population of Europe under surveillance."

"The European Parliament took a principled stand in November 2001 and on 18 April. Now it appears that the two largest parties - the EPP and PSE - may simply turn tail and accept the governments' demands," he added.

All I can say is there's wierdos just about everywhere. It's about time the FBI actually attempts to find out information before something happens wherever it happens to be.

On the other hand, can you see the scandal this produces later when a GOP president uses this power to direct his people to keep an eye on left wing religious types? I can...scary stuff.

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Please don't draw similarities between what we have gone through with 9/11 and the nazi propaganda regime. Not only is it in bad taste but it's an insult to my intelligence

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No government is immune to the temptation to
sieze as much power as it can get.
That's why we have a constitution. But a constitution
is worthless unless the people are willing to protest
when the government tries to violate it.

Searching without a warrant is a violation of the
fourth amendment.
:cool:

Im torn as I feel some of you are to
On one hand If I want to surf the net and learn how to do somthing I dont want my name on a list of possible future suspects or if I want to pickett with a church against abortion, and have my name/picture and life history indexed and catagorized in such a way that I would be considered a "good candidate" for sending "packages" or somthing.

But what if your neighbor is searching the internet for lets say....meth recip. or how to hide a bomb on your person, this is where I say if you are not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about so relax, but if you are....beware because big brother is just watching a little more closer.

It would be nice though to have access to your own record though just to see if you did come up on anythng .....not that any of us would.....right?

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Originally posted here by rcgreen


No government is immune to the temptation to
sieze as much power as it can get.
That's why we have a constitution. But a constitution
is worthless unless the people are willing to protest
when the government tries to violate it.

Searching without a warrant is a violation of the
fourth amendment.
:cool:

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This is not about searching at all. This is about collecting information that is open to the public. Anybody standing around canhear these things, but unfortunately they have never been able, by their own mandates, to use the information that was gathered that way. This does not infringe on the fourth amendment, not at least that I can see.

Paranoia is rampant here, it's funny how everybody cries foul, but when it comes right down to it how are intelligence agencies supposed to do their jobs if they can never get leads?

I for one have not given up any of my rights, nor am I simple enough to believe that the FBI or any othere agency is gonna screw me because of policy change. Let them do their job, they obviously failed to get it right before 9/11, so maybe a refocusing is what they need.

Bottom line is this, whether we acknowledge it or not, we are at war and the war has been brought to us. We have only recently found out that there was evidence present before 9.11 that COULD have led to the hijackers or something close to them. Either way, a "roadblock" could have been placed in the way of the hijackers. However, due to the FBI's internal limitations on what they could search and the prerequisites necessary to get a warrant via FISA (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act) to search Zacharias Moussaoui's laptop, that roadblock never had a chance to exist. I personally know that I am not involved in anything illegal and really, what would the FBI want with what I said in church, or what book I checked out at the local library? I'm not worried about it. I agree with Seeker_319 and his comment about "if you're not doing anything wrong, relax. If you are, know that someone is watching" (paraphrasing). I personally don't mind the FBI checking me out as long as it helps to rid our country of folks willing to act as terrorists.

-my two cents...........

They are looking for Islamic preists teaching Jihad against America. Belive it or not, it is there religion to wage war on "Infidels".

Don't belive me. Read the Qu-Ran. There is many many verses talking about killing jews and people who dont belive in Allah.

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Originally posted here by Dr Toker
They are looking for Islamic preists teaching Jihad against America. Belive it or not, it is there religion to wage war on "Infidels".

Don't belive me. Read the Qu-Ran. There is many many verses talking about killing jews and people who dont belive in Allah.

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Hmmm.... Doc, you must have found some verses i couldn't, or maybe havent' gotten to yet. After 9-11 i figured i better find out what the Muslim Religion believed, so have been studying the Koran and the first 5 books (their version of course) of the OT just for good measure. I found a Dr over in the Holy Land who had an early (before "modifications" by radicals preaching to people who don't know how to read...) translation ("verified" which is a process used to verify ancient Koran verses, and is too entailed to discuss here) of the Koran. it was run together like one monstrous sentence, the thoughts separated only by ascending numbers, so was slow reading and you could get confused easily if you tried to speed read. So i have been changing it into format that us westerners can read easily online, html. the part i've finished so far has a link down the page on UtahStateTrooper.com if anyone is interested. I find no reference to killing anyone for anything so far.... maybe it'll come later but i doubt it. I don't doubt for one minute, however, the ability of clever radical false 'prophets' preaching hate, murder and 72 virgins (just try to do the math on *that* one, Bubba!) to dirt poor uneducated people who haven't a pot to p1$$ in or a window to throw it out of and no visible hopes for anything better on this earth. Bottom line, IMHO i find no violence preached in the legitimate Koran so far... The only violence so far comes from false prophets and others with their own agenda preaching to the ignorant masses who don't stop long enough to calculate the bottom line because they don't have the resources or education to challenge the phonies or even think for themselves.
JMHO, guys, JMHO.