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I don't think anyone here is saying it didnt happen. What some people are saying is that some of it might historically exxaggerated AND innaccurate. Why would you want to take anything at face value, as if it were God's own truth? That would be like believing Windows is the perfect OS with NO holes.
Oh no, you didn't offend me at all and I appologize if you thought so because of my post. I find your opinions very interesting and that is why I started this thread in the first place.Quote:
Basically, what I'm trying to say (in my "fact manipulating" way) is that I don't believe that the Holocaust happened to the *extent* that the media portrays it. But I agree the millions of Jews died under the Nazis. I was just trying to make a point and I'm sorry if I offended anyone (like Mankan).
I think you are dead wrong and find it very disturbing that there are people that think the holocast is exaggerated. Especially with the fascist winds blowing over Europe right now (Denmark, France) but I respect that you are willing to share your beliefs even though they are quite provoking.
Above all, I'm a democrat. I don't get offended by peoples beliefs and I'm sorry for any reddies you might have gotten for speaking your mind. Antipoints shouldn't be used in that way but that's a different thread.
But you do aknowledge the fact that jews were held in "death-camps" while waiting to be executed just for beeing jews?
I personally feel that it is of uttermost importance that people learn about what happened from those who were there. No other source is reliable enough. I feel this way because as human beings we have an obligation to make sure that something like the holocast never happens again. To anyone, be it jews, muslims, catholics or raelists.Quote:
Originally posted here by Mahakaal
I don't think anyone here is saying it didnt happen. What some people are saying is that some of it might historically exxaggerated AND innaccurate. Why would you want to take anything at face value, as if it were God's own truth? That would be like believing Windows is the perfect OS with NO holes.
Revisionists, I belive, pose a threat because they spread information that is not first hand information even though it is still available. In just a few years though, everybody that actually experienced the holocast will be dead and first hand information wont be available anymore.
At that point it is up to anyone with the most power to influence to decide what people belive about the holocast and I for one find that very scary.
Get your facts straight now. Soon it will be to late. That is what I belive.
Hey Mankan. Yes it's important that something like systematic killing of Jewish people does not happen again. Stepping away from the topic of revisionism, do you know anything about an organisation called http://www.netureikarta.org/ or http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/ .
I give you a few little known but important questions from jewsnotzionists
IS IT TRUE that in 1941 and again in 1942, the German Gestapo offered all European Jews transit to Spain, if they would relinquish all their property in Germany and Occupied France; on condition that:
a) none of the deportees travel from Spain to Palestine; and
b) all the deportees be transported from Spain to the USA or British colonies, and there to remain; with entry visas to be arranged by the Jews living there; and
c) $1000.00 ransom for each family to be furnished by the Agency, payable upon the arrival of the family at the Spanish border at the rate of 1000 families daily.
IS IT TRUE that the Zionist leaders in Switzerland and Turkey received this offer with the clear understanding that the exclusion of Palestine as a destination for the deportees was based on an agreement between the Gestapo and the Mufti.
IS IT TRUE that the answer of the Zionist leaders was negative, with the following comments:
a) ONLY Palestine would be considered as a destination for the deportees.
b) The European Jews must accede to suffering and death greater in measure than the other nations, in order that the victorious allies agree to a "Jewish State" at the end of the war.
c) No ransom will be paid
IS IT TRUE that this response to the Gestapo's offer was made with the full knowledge that the alternative to this offer was the gas chamber.
IS IT TRUE that in 1944, at the time of the Hungarian deportations, a similar offer was made, whereby all Hungarian Jewry could be saved.
IS IT TRUE that the same Zionist hierarchy again refused this offer (after the gas chambers had already taken a toll of millions).
IS IT TRUE that during the height of the killings in the war, 270 Members of the British Parliament proposed to evacuate 500,000 Jews from Europe, and resettle them in British colonies, as a part of diplomatic negotiations with Germany.
IS IT TRUE that this offer was rejected by the Zionist leaders with the observation "Only to Palestine!"
IS IT TRUE that the British government granted visas to 300 rabbis and their families to the Colony of Mauritius, with passage for the evacuees through Turkey. The "Jewish Agency" leaders sabotaged this plan with the observation that the plan was disloyal to Palestine, and the 300 rabbis and their families should be gassed.
IS IT TRUE that during the course of the negotiations mentioned above, Chaim Weitzman, the first "Jewish statesman" stated: "The most valuable part of the Jewish nation is already in Palestine, and those Jews living outside Palestine are not too important". Weitzman's cohort, Greenbaum, amplified this statement with the observation "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Europe".
That is not meant to shift entirely, the blame from the Nazis, but this brings a little but very important unknown fact that the original founding fathers of Israel let thousands upon thousands of innocent people go to their deaths.
And please don't try to label these guys as "self-hating jews", because there is no such thing, but an argument to quell dissent against Israel. I recommend you read "The Holocaust Industry" by Norm Finkelstein. A JEWISH author.
I hope these are retorical questions because with facts at hand I cannot really judge if any of them are true. They all seem however, highly unlikely.
There are some things in your post I feel I can answer based on common sence.
1) Why would anyone take an offer made by Gestapo. Espesially as lat as -41 and -42 when several thousand jews had already been killed. What right does anyone have to give anyone an "offer" like the one claim Gestapo did?
Give me one example of any minority that would accept such an offer today.
2) To whom was this offer made and how was this person thought to communicate the offer to all other European jews? This seems a lot like ZOG-propaganda to me.
Even in peace times there would have been impossible to communicate an offer to all jews because there was and still is nothing that keeps these jews together. There is no jewish state of which you are a member just because you belive what is written in Talmud and the Torah. A jew from Oslo in Norway and a Jew from Barcelona in spain have nothing in common except their religous belifes. And to blame the holocast on some Zionist movement is crazy because the zionists and your average jew has just about as much in common as Usama Bin Laden and your average muslim.
Zionist leaders can't represent all jews and have no interest in doing so either. There is no jewish chain of command. No jewish leader. No jewish nothing. Judaism is a religion and as such it is impossible to speak of jews as anything but a religious group.
I belive Norm Finkelstein to be one of the dumbest people to ever set foot on earth and the fact that he's jew doesn't imply anything due to reasons stated above. Nevertheless I just ordered the book from amazon.com. I'll get back to you when I've read it.
I don't know the answers to most of these questions (which seemQuote:
IS IT TRUE that in 1941 and again in 1942, the German Gestapo offered all European Jews transit to Spain, if they would relinquish all their property in Germany and Occupied France; on condition that:
a) none of the deportees travel from Spain to Palestine; and
b) all the deportees be transported from Spain to the USA or British colonies, and there to remain; with entry visas to be arranged by the Jews living there; and
c) $1000.00 ransom for each family to be furnished by the Agency, payable upon the arrival of the family at the Spanish border at the rate of 1000 families daily.
to suggest that the Zionist leaders were cynical and uncaring),
but it is established that the USA was practically closed
as a destination. Anti-immigration forces in the US Congress
represented the majority viewpoint, and would not relent, even
as the situation in Europe became painfully obvious.
A German offer to "permit" jews to leave was rendered
impractical by their insistence on confiscating all the
money and property of those attempting to emigrate,
coupled with the unwillingness of other countries
to accept impoverished refugees.
Catch 22
:cool:
And this is different from any other 'stories' that one hears? The curse of OUR lives is that anyone can change a story, and it will be accepted as truth. 'TRUTH' has become irrelevant, since it is based on perspective and interpretation. Religion, history, intent....all corrupted by the interpretation by those who weren't there. Some are stronger than others...but how does one really know what happened? Majority opinion, for the most part. Does that make it true? Nope.Quote:
Originally posted here by Mankan
What scares me the most is that in 40 years there will be noone alive to tell the tale. All eye witnesses will be gone and the land will lay open for anyone to rewrite the history as they see fit.
Don't be a sheep...research and find out for yourself the inconsistencies and similarities of events that have been recorded 'honestly' by different people. In the end, you will find nothing but difference, and everything but 'truth'. So fairy tales must be the only support that one has. Society has advanced to the point of idiocy...we believe whatever we're told, as long as it's someone with a badge or a white collar. So go on, believe things without a second thought...or don't, and be attacked by those who have the guts to find out for themselves, although that task is one that drains the life out of the strongest of us.
Think.
Ouroboros
You are absolutely right. This is why I urge people to get first hand information while it is still available.Quote:
And this is different from any other 'stories' that one hears? The curse of OUR lives is that anyone can change a story, and it will be accepted as truth. 'TRUTH' has become irrelevant, since it is based on perspective and interpretation. Religion, history, intent....all corrupted by the interpretation by those who weren't there. Some are stronger than others...but how does one really know what happened? Majority opinion, for the most part. Does that make it true? Nope.
It is sad when people choose a certain point of view because it is politically convinient. This is why I respect Jethro even though I think he is wrong on all accounts.
IS IT TRUE that the israel/palistinian war is coused by sympathy for the jews in israel (the state of Israel was instated right after WWII).
So you see, things just continue.
WWII came after the alies forced germany in depression (war payments) after WWI, which started in yugoslavia.
Most wars are only about two things. Money and pride.
arg...i whish people would learn how to make good logical arguements.Quote:
Originally posted here by the_JinX
WWII came after the alies forced germany in depression (war payments) after WWI, which started in yugoslavia.
WWII also came after my grandfather was born, does that imply that my grandfather had anything to do with the start of the war?
anyway, the current conflicts in Isreal are because both sides are pretty much rasist bastards who would completly wipe out the other side in the blink of an eye if they could(yes i'm saying that the Israeli jews would kill all the palistinians if they thought they could get away with it).
[EDIT:ADDED]
oh yea, and sorry for kinda hijacking the thread, carry on, carry on.