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I'm British, but generally I get along with our friends over the big pond. Sure you mess up the English language by missing out letters here and there and we don't always agree on anything, but without each other where would we be? I sometimes get angry when you don't spell words correctly or leave the CAPS LOCK ON, but at the end of the day I'm proud that Britain is friends with America.
I am Australian, and so I am not familiar with the us pledge of alliegence but if you feel strongly about it then good for you! I wouldn't worry about what other people say. Some people can't help but disrepute things. They instinctivly look for such openings.
I am South African and proud of it
P2P i admire any body who has the guts to stand up for there country and beliefs
Regards
Mike
I think that all american's need to fight for our country and need to really show support. If you are down with what P2P and I are doing than give America one big Giant W00T!!!!!!!!
I realize that quite a few of you are upset and feel insulted, but I posted the links above to try and clarify some things. Ruling the Pledge of Alliegiance unconstitutional was not an act of disrespect. It did not mean that people didn't like the United States, even though there are people who do. Understanding the motives and history behind the Pledge could shed some light upon why it should be regarded as no more than propaganda.
It really is worth a read. I think that one must look at all perspectives before stating anything. And I certainly think that some of the viewpoints stated in this thread are severely jaded. Pride is a wonderful thing. Don't forget it, but don't also forget the United States history, and the principles on which they preached, and the stories that history told us otherwise.
The energy and vigor in everyone's statements is remarkable, but they are just words. What actions do you take everyday to ensure the better of your country? Must there be a war, or an article that pisses someone off to take action and 'stand'?
I can't stand how Americans acted after 9/11, suddenly posting flags everywhere. Did it take those people dying to find your pride? If you value so much that this country has to offer, where were your flags before? Why didn't I see the pride hanging from almost every balcony in my city, pre-9/11. The truth be it that no one gave a ****. They didn't care because they took their security for granted. In a country so young, not having survived the wisdom and wars that even the greatest empires endured, that was to be expected.
Maybe this thread should be a learning tool for each of you. Educate yourself all that you can, pass along the knowlege, and instead of just stating it, DO IT. And make sure when you do, you have all the facts. Anyone can say whatever they want, but in the United States, not only do you have the freedom to say it, you have the freedom to act upon it as well.
I ain't American, but I'd like to reply to this thread (actually, I'd like to reply to the two threads involved here).
I've seen antipoints (both positive and negative) fly around in this thread as if it were doves on the Statue of Liberty (<-- dramatization, I've never seen the Statue of Liberty in real life...). I've seen people get negative antipoints for saying the exact thing people who got postitive antipoints did. I've seen people ignore the only one who actually contributed something on-topic.
First off: my general belief is that there are *******s everywhere. There are even more American *******s than say Afgan *******s if you ask me, simply because there are more Americans. High trees catch a lot of wind. If they can't stand it, they snap.
A couple of simple facts (they were already brought up, but I think most of you didn't even bother to look into it further - just saying 'I agree' was enough to get you greenies, so why would you bother?):
- The original pledge did not include the phrase 'under God'.
Quote:
Francis Bellamy, 1892
"I pledge allegiance to my flag and to the Republic for which it stands -- one nation indivisible -- with liberty and justice for all."
Quote:
The Strange Origin of the Pledge of Allegiance
One hundred years ago the American flag was rarely seen in the classroom or in front of the school. Upham changed that. In 1888, the magazine began a campaign to sell American flags to the public schools. By 1892, his magazine had sold American flags to about 26 thousands schools.
I may be wrong, but I always thought modern America was founded by - amongst others - Europeans who didn't agree with European religion, with European beliefs, with European society. Untill the pledge, America had a tradition of liberty. Bellamy changed the liberty-part to loyalty. Loyalty implies authority. If you check Bellamy's background, it ain't that difficult to understand why he did so (in short, and to keep things simple, Bellamy was a right-wing, christian socialist - Don't want to get into a discussion about right-wing vs. left-wing here: right-wing simply means conservative, holding strong to family values,...). Francis supported his brother Edward, author of 'Looking Backward" (1888), a book that "described a utopian Boston in the year 2000. The book spawned an elitist socialist movement in Boston known as "Nationalism," whose members wanted the federal government to national most of the American economy. Francis Bellamy was a member of this movement and a vice president of its auxiliary group, the Society of Christian Socialists" (from http://civilliberty.about.com/ gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.aclu.org/news/move/pledgeorigin.html).Quote:
[url=http://usgovinfo.about.com/blpledgehist.htm]
In 1923, the first National Flag Conference in Washington D.C. voted to change the words "my flag" to "the Flag of the United States of America."
Congress officially recognized the Pledge of Allegiance in 1942, but in 1943, the Supreme Court ruled that public school students could not be forced to recite it.
The words "under God" were added in 1954 by then President Eisenhower, who stated at the time, "In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."
Now, on with the show:
The Supreme Court ruled back in 1943 already that no public school student could be forced to recite it.Quote:
The case was brought by Michael A. Newdow, a Sacramento atheist who objected because his second-grade daughter was required to recite the pledge at the Elk Grove school district. A federal judge had dismissed his lawsuit.
If Mr. Newdow's daughter was required to cite it, he had every legal right to bring this case to court. He, being an atheist, probably only rejected the 'under god'-part. If someone else would have had a problem with the pledge for let's say the 'the Flag...'-part, this discussion would have been about that part. Why? Because The Supreme Court ruled in 1943 that no public school student could be forced to recite it.
I don't understand why that federal appeals court ruled it unconstitutional though. People being forced to recite it is unconstitutional, not the pledge itself. The pledge itself is just a farce, not unconstitutional. If Mr. Bellamy had bonds with the hat-manufacturing industry, you'd be pledging allegiance to the Hat now... Fine with me, that's what Freedom of Speech is for. But forcing people to recite a slogan?
Just leave the pledge how it is, or how it used to be? If Mr. Eisenhower wouldn't have added the 'under god-part, this case wouldn't exist.Quote:
Originally posted by avdven
As you said, they'll go after our currency next. Where will we be then? I say, just leave the pledge how it is. Those who don't agree with it, can simply refrain from saying it. Just my opinion, of course.
You can also reverse your currence-question... What if Mr. Bush decides to change the pledge to 'I pledge allegiance to Mr. Bush, to the illiteracy he stands for - one man untouchable - with free bumper-stickers for all"?
The Supreme Court ruled in 1943 that no-one can be FORCED to recite the pledge. Mr. Newdon objected to his daughter being forced to recite the pledge (for his own reasons). He had every legal right to do that.Quote:
Originally posted by {P²P}Apocalypse
I'll make this short and sweat. I respect everyones beliefs and fully believe they have a right to thier own beliefs.
BUT! And a very big BUT......
If I go to another country they expect me to respect thier beliefs and to addapt. So if they come to this country the same should apply.
In other words.
IF YOU DON'T LIKE THIS COUNTRY OR OUR BELIEFS AND CHOOSE NOT TO RESPECT OUR BELIEFS. YOU ALSO HAVE THE RIGHT TO LEAVE THIS COUNTRY. PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wonder what you mean by 'our beliefs'... "Our beliefs", as in the country of freedom of speech, liberty, justice for all? That's exactly what Mr. Newdon stood up for. Justice, as in Justified by the law. Freedom of speech, as in freedom of keeping your mouth shut.
Or do you, when you say 'our beliefs', actually mean the 'under god'-part that was added by Eisenhower? That's not what your country originally stood for, is it?
America was not founded on a god-related foundation. The god-related foundation was added in 1954.Quote:
Originally posted by Lord_darkside_x
i agree with p2p. people do need to respect the beliefs of a country whether they agree or not. the belief in god is the most popular religion in the country. this country was established on a god related foundation.
You both have a point though when you say that 'if you come to this country the respect of and the adaption to our beliefs is essential'...
You both seem to miss the point though...
Freedom of religion and freedom of beliefs? Again, isn't that exactly what Mr. Newdon stood up for?Quote:
Originally posted by {P²P}Apocalypse
Frankly, I don't give **** about using my CAPS LOCK on this post. I AM AN AMERICAN. If you don't respect our beliefs in this country. Well, all I have to say is. Pardon my language, but. You also have the right to LEAVE our country. I got a shitload of negs on that post. But, I don't give a ****. I AM AN AMERICAN, AND YES I HAVE MY CAPS LOCK ON. I believe everyone in this country has the right to beis live the way they want to. Thats why this country was founded. For freedom of relegeon and freedom of beliefs. If you don't like it. Well all I have to say is. MOVE TO ANOTHER COUNTRY where you don't have the right to express your opinion. I am way far from being a qoute a "religeous" person. However, I have served my country as well as other members of my family and families of many persons. To defend the right of a persons own beliefs. This is a FREE country. It will and should always remain so. I don't give a **** if a person lives wherever. When I go to thier country they expect me to respect thier beliefs and I do. If someone does'nt respect our countries beliefs, well, you can go ****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! yourself. Then you can move to CHINA or another country where you WILL be executed for your beliefs. Hope do you like them apples. I am usualy a calm person. You can read all my previous postings and see this, as I have only been very liberal in my opinions. As far as this goes though. As I said. I AM AN AMERICAN............. IF YOU DON'T LIKE AMERICA THEN MOVE..............................................
Go where you will be tortured for what you belive in. Go where your family is killed to teach you a lesson. As I said:
I AM AN AMERICAN AND DAMN PROUD OF IT. SO IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT. LEAVE THIS COUNTRY AND **** OFF. FOR, THIS IS WILL ALWAYS BE THE LAND OF THE BRAVE AND THE FREE................................................
NUFF SAID...................................... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't have a clue what this post of yours has to do with the original subject. Mr. Newdon stood up for the exact same thing you are fulminating about... He funded his opinion though. You just rant on and on and on.
And something else: I hate to burst your bubble, but there are more countries than just America and China, you know...
Aww man, you ruin an entire good post with that last sentence. Your country hasn't always been 'a nation under god'...Quote:
Originally posted by Reality
It is important to respect the traditions of the country you live in. Respect, does not mean acceptance though. While much of the US was founded on a belief in God, it was truely founded on the belief of tolerance. The United States is a melting pot of all beliefs, personalities, origins, and ethnicities. We must all live togather in peace in one nation, regardless of everything else. As for me, in God I trust and will always trust; but I will not force my beliefs upon anyone else. It is thier right to live as they see fit, even if I don't agree with them. I hope the phrase stays though For me this nation will always be a nation under God.
Wow, I must be dreaming... Is something actually making a real contribution to this thread?Quote:
Originally posted by Greek-Goddess
Okay, back to the reference that this thread was made to, you might want to look at this:
http://civilliberty.about.com/libra...fs/bl013101.htm
And as you scroll down to the related link section, be sure to click on the Origin of the Pledge of Allegiance
I did scroll down, thanks :D (that's where I got some of my info from, or did you think I already knew all of this? ;) )
And finally...Kindred69, where did you get that propaganda-stuff from?
Oh, and btw: I love you, guys :D
I pledge allegiance to AntiOnline and to the values for which it stands -- one team indivisible -- with ad-banner free surfing for ermm... some of us...
/me steps in to see what he began with the pledge thread...
Wow, I am amazed at some of the patriotism that has been shown here. It is definetly a good thing. P2P I completely support your views. Neg, excellent post. I'm glad to see everyone coming together. I'm glad to see the discussion has been held without TOO much flaming and "were better than you are" type attitudes. This has been a culmination of what discussioin is supposed to be. I congratulate all of you.
x
Darn, I wanted to post to the other thread about the pledge...Well, Ill say it here then. Yes, i agree about this being america and we need to have respect for other views. I will say though that the court that decided that the pledge was unconstitutional was full of hairbrained idiots. 1st, separation of church and state was never in the constitution. It may be now in an ammendment (need to check on that) The phrase was coined in a letter by Thomas Jefferson. 2nd...Everyone has their "god". By this i mean, Christianity has God, Jews have God, Hinduism has multiple gods, Islam has Allah, and Atheism has their absence of God as their "god" If you look at the term, god, you could say that it is anyting that someone puts their belief in. Therefore, It is not unconstitutional to say one nation under god, because to every person, god has a different meaning. The problem is that everyone gripes about separation of church and state. Its impossible to separate them beyond a certain point, cause the people that lead the state have their own beliefs and policy is affected by them. No way around that. Anyways, enuf of my rant :) I just want to say also, that I AM AN AMERICAN. What have I done for my country? I tried to join the armed forces, but my hearing kept me from it. I have lost 50 percent or greater of my hearing. My family has all served in the forces from the war to independence till now. My ancestors came over on the mayflower. I have my roots deep in this country and love it. I work hard, pay my taxes and support everything that is good for this country! I agree. If you don't like your freedoms then go to another country!!!!!!!!!!
Some very well said posts here. Some people take their citizenship very serious, which I respect.
Personally, I don't even know the English translation of the Irish Anthem. Hmm, I should google that or something...
I am an American! P2P thank you for your service to our country and thank you for your post.
This is one of the great things about America and AO, the free and sometimes passionate exchange of ideas. I believe the founding fathers referred to this as the market place of ideas. Everyone has the opportunity to hear/read the opinions of others and make their own opinion from that.
Thanks to Greek goddess and Negative for informative and thoughtful posts.