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I think that anyone that hurts a child should be tortured. Put them through the same abuse that they gave the child. If they beat the child, then beat them etc... I am far from religious, but an eye for an eye.
Oh yea, I would also like to torture about 6 of my users, and maybe one remote Admin. :)
In the world of theory, ethics and academia it is easy to qualify and dismiss what we here are calling torture. But we do not live in the in any of those worlds. We live in a world where men fly planes into buildings, plot to kill innocent people and where ruthless companies continue to pollute and be addicted to fossil fuels. This is a very complex issue.
As far as our treatment of the cowards in Guantanamo, please, you say cutting beards and putting them in cages is torture? Give me a break. What about the people in the WTC who jumped out of windows or were burned to death? They were given no due process and no chance to live. THOSE PEOPLE ARE DEAD. In my mind the Al Qaeda operatives should been interviewed and killed. The Taliban being uniformed soldiers of a governing body should be treated humanely.
The reality is that this is a war. We sit here in comfort and bliss and never once realize that in order to maintain that, some unfortunate business must be taken care of. While we have people who are deadly opposed to freedom and democracy we will have to deal with them as the conditions dictate. True, capital punishment and torture in the academic world are seen as signs of a simple and under-developed society. But we live in a world where religions are twisted and perverted. This is a reality where blind hatred is transformed into evil bloodlust and death. I ask, What if one man held the key to a nuclear attack in NYC? Would you rather see 20 million perish or have someone extract the information by any means necessary? This is of course MHO.
I think mental torture is effective only in certain cases. Lets say we took a rug beater and did everything to ruin his mentality but he still wont talk. what would we be able to use against him to make him? hypnosis? no, when we start to dismember him he would spill his soul for us. yes i am for torture.
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articl...TruthSerum.htm
Strange......
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torture is deontologically wrong.
it is always wrong to hurt people no matter what the intended ends are, because the ends are always indeterminate, while the means are always determinate, so you look at the means to determine the morallity of an action, so no torture is not justified because you want to get info or to punish some one.
This is a response to a negative that I received, and for anyone curious on the effects of sodium penothal. Granted, any testimony under the influence of alcohol, or the influence of anything for that matter would be inadmissable but obviously, the courts aren't going to be involved much in this....and although the UN deems this drug as torture, if you really look at it, I wouldn't consider it to be much torture at all. Yes, I'm sure it violates human rights in some way, shape, form, or aspect. But in any situation, you're always going to piss some social group off with some technicallity. *smirks*
I'm sure it's a matter of the needle poking through the skin and the fact that it's forced, but if someone tries to commit suicide, they are forced to go to the hospital and given IV's and blood panels, the normal routine, usually 'against their will' for a suicide attempt. Is that torture too? I've seen screamers and biters come into the ER in the middle of the night, I know that they did not want to be alive, they made that very clear, and CERTAINLY weren't happy with the needle pokes and the restraints. Or are now we talking a matter of psychology and the 'mental capacity' of a person who wants to commit suicide. Hand those guys a cyanide pill, 2:3 of them will take it as loyalty to their cause. So, they're wanting to commit suicide, so now you can poke them. Grrr, I don't know.
If any of you were wondering:
THIOPENTAL (SODIUM PENTOTHAL)
Intermittent IV administration:
(2-5% solution is recommended) .
1 to 2 grams/ 50 ml
5 grams/ 100-250 ml
10 grams/ 500 ml
Continuous infusion (0.2 to 0.4% solution is recommended ) .
1 gram/ 250 ml or 2 grams/ 500ml
EXP: 3 days (RT); 7 days (REF). Onset: 30-60 seconds. Duration: 10-30 minutes. Ultra short acting barbiturate. Given by slow intravenous administration only. Dosing: Anesthesia induction(adults): 3-5 mg/kg (2.5% solution) Maintenance: 25-100mg IV as needed. Increased intracranial pressure: 1.5 to 5 mg/kg/dose; repeat as needed to control intra-cranial pressure. Seizures: 75 to 250mg/dose. Repeat as needed. [case study: 250 mg IV bolus followed by 80-120 mg/hr.]
Although barbiturate are properly classified as sedative-hypnotic agents, they lack certain characteristics which are important for anesthesia -- including analgesia and amnesia. Other drug groups, such as the opioids, represent effective approaches to analgesia, whereas certain benzodiazepines are very effective amnestic and anxiolytic agents.
Thiopental (Pentothal), however, is an effective anesthetic induction drug although other agents, such as propofol (Diprivan) are increasingly commonly used.
What this is basically saying, is it's an anesthetic. It's going to relax you in smaller doses, and in higher doses, cause unconciousness for a brief period of time. Granted, with any drug, there are adverse reactions and side effects which you can read in the links below, including apnea (because barbituates act as a depressant), Vasodilation, which would reduce heart function...These are risks that any doctor faces when he examines a patient. They would of course need an exam to see if it were even possible, now granted they're not going to give you their case history so you can inject the drug to get them to talk...but it's possible to get enough information from a patient by examination with several testing procedures.
Also, it is NOT a truth serum, contrary to what most people think. It's going to give you a similar effect to alcohol as stated above, reduced inhibitions, more likely to talk. They can STILL lie. And that's the important part. It's not as if it shuts off their thinking and they just spill all the information out of them, in fact, it's quite far from that.
http://www.pharmacology2000.com/lect...tics/page9.htm
I'm sure whoever gave me the neg thought that sodium penothal was only used in letal injections, that's just to put the convicted asleep, not to kill them. Maybe YOU should look it up.
Quote:
Originally posted here by eeshman
Personally I feel that torture in the context of military and/or covert operations attempts to coerce or persuade individuals of the opposing force into giving up vital intelligence. I light of that understanding, I believe there are less violent and perhaps more useful ways of achieving this information. No human being should be forced to undergo torture of any kind, regardless of the circumstances. Now, I am not saying that I wouldn't feel the need to shove bamboo shutes underneath the fingernails of the assailant that raped my daughter or murdered my parents (hypothetically speaking of course), but the after-effects are always different than we forsee. Initial rage feels good at the time, however the aftertaste is quite bitter. I would rather not experience that kind of regret.
-The Eeshman
Actually, as a former military personnel, I believe that torture is outlawed and considered a form of war crime under the gueneva convention. As for torture being used in the context of a military operation, the nazi's and japanese used torture during world war 2 against POW's and were considered a rather barbarous nation respectively by the "democratic nations."
Please do not feel that I am trying to be offensive, but during WWII most of the POW guards in Germany and Japan were of this frame of mind (i.e. just doing what I am ordered). Handing them off to those who might torture someone during an interogation does not absolve you of responsibility if you have justifyable reason to know or belive that torture might be used during that interogation.Quote:
Originally posted here by LoggOff
hmmmm without reading to much into this thread, im more of the guy that goes in and gets people out. my preference is not letting people stay arround long enuf to be tourtured, but within the confines of the law. if they are un armed then i just hand em off to those that do the interigation. not my job, so i dont need to think about it......
*puts on flame proof suit*
Torture (physical torture) is always wrong. The fallacy of "the ends justify the means used" has always been a trap for those who originally are inclined to use illegal or immoral practices to achieve a goal that perports to support their side of an arguement. As one person here said... using torture only puts us at the level of those we are fighting.
As far as mental torture is concerned: While it might be a "softer form" of abuse of an individual, that does not necessarily make it any better or more acceptable.
Of course this is just MHO, but I thought I would share it with you.
Okay, I'm browsing through my pharmacology textbook right now, just for some supporting evidence.
General Anesthetics Administered Intraveneously
Thiopental sodium, USP, BP -- Short procedures or to facilitate induction with volatile anesthetics, 2.5% solution (concentration)
In the same class as:
Ketamine hydrochloride, USP, BP -- Obstetrics, short procedures
Diazepam, USP, BP -- (Valium) Anticonvulsant, induction aid, preoperative medication
Barbituate poisoning:
Similar to those of chronic alcoholism. There is impairment of mental efficiency, confusion, belligerence, blurred speech, and tremors. The skin is clammy and cyanotic, the temperature drops, and respiratory depression continues, causing death. Severe poisoning results from 5 to 10 times the hypnotic dose, and death results from 15 to 20 times the hypnotic dose. Dialysis, Megimide, nikethamide, or caffiene sodium benzoate is used in treatment of overdose.
There are many commonly used barbituarate (as Thiopental sodium). They differ in onset of action, duration of action and method of administration, this being intraveneous. But for all practical purposes the pharmacologic effects on the body are the same.
*This is one of the many drugs controlled under the Dangerous Drug Act, a schedule II drug in the US and Schedule G drug in Canada.
Referenced book:
Pharmacology: An Introductory Text (Edition 8)
Mary Kaye Asperheim, M.D.
1991/WB Saunders
Should America, as the self style leaders of the modern world, not be leading by example? They should welcome a UN convention and help to police the less democratic countries of the world. But then aren't the US doing what the F*** they want anyway? Somebody has to stand up for the right for free speech, freedom of expression and the other constitutional rights, but how many times do we hear of a worldwide agreement (Kyoto, world poverty, the war on terror) that is basically pissed on by US government. Torture is wrong, be it mental, physical or drug induced. Period. If a US serviceman was beaten, strapped to a pole and carried from one side of a prison camp to the other and then "interogated" without right to council (if he is a criminal) or protection under the Geneva convention (for P.o.W) all hell woudl break loose and Dubwa would be sending in SEAL's and all other aquatic life he had in his arse and all....