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Yes, syini666 that does happen to people sometimes when other people do not agree with them, and it is a sad thing. However, what I was saying, was that we can speak out, and not have to worry about secret police knocking on our door in the middle of the night. Other countries do have to worry about that.
Jaguar all I can say is:
Very Nicely said.
So I didn't "quite get it" ? Now at least try to put some enrgy here and read the posts with less ubjected to anger etc, just because my point is different. I said VERY clearly in my first post I don't agree with terrorists. i also said VERY clearly altough I know other countries do the same and that ****, I was going to discuss the US here. Maybe it's unfair to put the US on it's own all the time, I don't care. I want this to be discussed because of all nations the US is a very important one and because they are they should at least behave in what they do. I'm not discussing the terrorists here. Now to make it a little easier for you I'll start this quoting thing again:
On one side you say you don't want to sitick the racust thing on it, but here you say something different. The misconception that this is a "Jihad". You say, cheyenne1212, they kill so many people to get people to believe in Allah ? Because that's what a Jihad is. It's in their sacred book to spread the religion as far as they can and if neccesary with the means of a war. This is not a "Jihad". The US is to far away for that. They just hate America and their way of free-market, dirty tricks we all seem to know off etc etc. The "terrorists" being muslim fundamentalists isn't the issue. That's the reason they have the lifestyle the have now and that's where they get their mental strength from. It's NOT the reason to attack the US. The issue about geting shot for yelling bad things about the president is not the issue because I was taking about the US. The US who, ON A SIDENOTE, arrested a german guy for comparing Bush with Hitler.Quote:
These terrorists wanted to attack us because they hate us, because we are not forced to worship Allah or whoever else they worship. We have freedom to do what we want when we want. We have freedom to stand out in the middle of a street and say awful things about are President, yet if you go to their country they will shoot you down just because they don't like where you come from.
"You" were fighting terrorists. The US should mind their own buisiness in other countries politics if they want to stay out of fire. By doing all kinds off stuff they get themselves into problems, now the US should also be able to handle critisism.Quote:
I see two countries invaded by the US. The first was a PROVEN haven for terrorists (I'm pretty sure it wasn't a coincidence that Usama Bin Laden lived in Afghanistan) and was ruled by a repressive regime where the slightest infraction WOULD GET YOU SHOT OR HUNG. Women were not even allowed to go to school. How would the female members of your family feel if a bunch of religious fanatics took away their ability to get an education and seek gainful employment? How would YOU feel if you saw your mom forced to BEG FOR FOOD on the streets? If giving a group of people back the rights to education and self government is "ruining" a country, then I'm ready to ruin the world my friend.
I made a note at the beginning, I wasn't even discussion terrorists nor the war on terrorism. The threads title is constitution. Whatever proof their was, you exterminated an entire nation. The very first intend of bombing Afghanistan is to *murdered* as many people as had died on 9/11. It was an action of revenge. They wanted to destroy the terrorist camps by more effective means, but they failed. That doesn't mather, the fact is they still ruined millions of peoples life. The US did.
The opressive regime was, like I said in the first post, I nice side effect. The intentions of the war were to get those hidden weapons of mass-destruction who could be used against the US. Now many people died there, but no weapons and no Sadaam yet. That doesn't mather, the fact is they still ruined millions of peoples life. The US did.Quote:
On to country number two...can anyone here spell OPPRESSIVE REGIME? It's a country where saying ONE BAD WORD against the leadership could get you and your family exterminated. A country where women could not walk down the street without fear because the head honcho's son had a reputation for grabbing women off the street and raping them if he found them the least bit attractive. These guys looked at torture the same way that the rest of the world looks at basketball or soccer....they did it just to get their kicks. So I guess if you are a sadist then hell yeah...we ruined that country too.
If you go on the racist thing again, why shouldn't the entire globe be allowed to be ruled by muslims ? Because you think this system is best because you grew up in it, you didn't live in the other culture so you can't judge as I can't judge the intelligence of americans.Quote:
Yes, my government is FAR FROM PERFECT....but at least I can say that without fear of reprisals from death squads and other mercenary types. There is corruption here, but the people of the US have the ability to root such things out and remove them....something that every country in the world deserves to be able to do. After all...all men (and women) were created equal.
I know it was wrong and I did it on purpose. Not to call you a racist, but many many people thing like this: muslim==terrorist. So this card is an issue and so I brought it up.Quote:
And neel, playing the race card was just plain wrong. We don't hate arabs nor do we hate muslims...we hate oppressive bullies and they come in all colors. If people don't quit playing the race card then racism will never go away...and we all have to start with ourselves when attempting to wipe out that particular blight from the earth.
I don't want to discuss those terms you all have like "proactive point of view" I learned in the previous thread wich was about these thing, you actually have a point. The point in this thread is the way you treat people after they are caught or treat a nation wich is "suspected" of "possibly" hosting "some" terrorists. The ignore human rights as much as the terrorists do if not more. This is a different thread and I didn't want to discuss this **** again. Please read the subject.Quote:
I guess my "proactive point of view" is a wee bit too much for some of you people to handle. But tell me this...what are we to do when we see cruelty and injustice visited upon our fellow human beings....human beings who have had the power to control their own destinies stripped away from them? Turn a blind eye and thank God that it is happening to someone else? ANYTIME I see wrongs being done that cry out to be righted and something needs to be done I have to ask "If not me...who? If not now....when?"
People have a reason to "beat up" someone. You would not interfere if you could not win, because that would be plain stupid. You together with almost all people on earth are to "pussy" to come help me if I was beaten up by 10 people and you were on yer own. Only if you got some B12 bomber handy in yer pocket (so I'm comparing with the US now) you would interfere and you wouldn't interfere because you liked me, but just because I was loosing. Maybe I was the badguy trying to rape on of the gangs little daughter and they could stop me just in time.Quote:
So neel, HTRegz, and all the rest who don't quite "get it" let me say this....if I'm walking down a street and see you getting the crap kicked out of you by a bunch of hoodlums, I'm going to do something about it. Be it calling the police or jumping in and getting my own knuckles bloodied, I'm sticking up for the underdog. To be quite frank, if or when the day comes that one of you becomes the underdog, I seriously doubt that you'll bitch like you have here if I try to save your ass at the risk of my own...but then again you never know, some people just can't be satisfied.
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Part 2:
To jaguar291: you got the same thing alenb has.
So you got proof and so you picked the right country... Don't you see what you are saying here ? Besides I didn't see the prove of terrorist camps in Afghanistan (only some fague lowsy pictures, wich weren't worth ****), you ruined the ENTIRE country, not the terrorists.
Your soldiers getting killed has nothing to do with the treatment of prisoners of war. You got killed because the enemy was strong to, and your soldiers less strong then they appear to be in warmovies on television. The prinsoners didn't kill those soldiers and if they did, how can unarmed people be a threat to an army ? Sounds like the armies fault to me.Quote:
There's a time for diplomacy and there's a time for action... we did our jobs abiding to the Geneva Convention but when our soldiers are being pecked off 1-2 a day, it gets ridiculous.. we need to play on the same grounds as the enemy or those numbers will go up higher and higher....
Much respect for all soldiers though, but that quote was just wrong.
They were caught and held without reason and some other things you knew if you read the articles. Also the US murdered nations with no good reason.Quote:
And how have we exactly taken away their appropriate rights? We've fed them, sheltered them, gave them the right to speak, and we're holding military tribunals (soon enough) to prove guilt or innocence.
ok, because your post is so long and generally filled with the same **** I don't agree with I'll stop bitching at you because it's not going to help me prove my point anyway. Again, I'm discussing the US and I know 2000+ people got killed in the US, it's not the issue in this thread. Sniping is wrong, killing a million is wronger.
And quit the ****ing patriotism fool. Don't hide about you "fellow" americans. Show some more self thought out things instead of quoting President speeches all over. Try to be objective for a change.Quote:
To them it doesn't matter, they live in fear of us, we lead the world, and they find every execuse to make it sound like we are horrible people.. but yet they envy us.. they wish of living here and work their entire lives to come here one day...
I know you're going to quote me on this because "you didn't quote president speeches" or something. Think again if yer going to post that.
You know Ogres are very friendly ?
tho I can not say I have a degree in it I have studied politics both Irish and worldwide for 2yrs and I think that this has some bearing.Quote:
have a degree in military history...specializing in strategy and tactics. While I do not call myself an expert, one thing I learned is that the U.S. has made plenty of mistakes in the past by not "adapting" to the enemy.
Yes perhaps it is a more difficult approach to seek out individual members of an originisation - but as ZoneWalker said we must indeed do so in order to preserve our own standings as civilised people. Surely by sinking to their level we are becoming no better than they are?
The only difference is one group calls it terrorism while another calls it war.
I agree that what happened in America was an atrositie and the people who committed such a crime should be punished - I do not however feel that the death penalty is a suitable punishment as these people have demonstrated they are more then willing to die for their cause and will only create more martyers but that is for another discussion.
However I do feel that it should be only the people responsable and not their entire nation that is punished.
For example - the IRA has been responsible for bombings and killings on the mainland UK yet the world would be up in arms if England started slaughtering those people in N.Ireland - take a look at reports about bloody sunday and the problems it caused and that was a far far far smaller scale than what is going on in Afghanistan.
You can not punich a whole nation for one groups crimes - yes they need to be brought to justice but the tactics being used to do so tm are doing nothing for Americas popularity - and yes I am aware even the Prime minister here is backing the US
but at present that decision has cost him alot of his following and has contributed to the death of at least 1 mp
The only reason that Bush has not commited political suicide over this matter is that the vast majority of people in the US are blinded by their hatred and do not see the way in which this is being handled by those in power.
Now all thise is my own humble opinion and I do not mean to offend - yes perhaps I would feel differently if it was my own country & perhaps I do not know the whole troy as I can only say what I see in the media. But I do feel that the US goverment has alot to answer for in the way they have attempted to capture those responsible. I also hope I hve made clear that I feel those responsible have to be brought to justice but while being fair to the rest of their country
v_Ln
************second part added after seeing Jag's post********************
yes but how do you he did?? you know because you have seen it on TV in newspapers etc - but you dont know for sure - ever hear the expression 'dont believe everythign you hear in the nes?' - I am not saying he isn't responsible and most likly is but I just thought i would raise the point that we as a whole rely on the media way too much for information and are very easily swayed by itQuote:
bin Laden himself claiming responsiblity is not enough proof for you?
I'm sorry but this comment strikes me as out & out arrogance - if look at it on a global timescale America is really the baby brother - yes you maybe one of the super powers but historically America as it is today is a fairly new country.Quote:
we as the world's big
so by the same train of thought you feel that the English soldiers in N.Ireland should have started killing people purely on their religion? They were being picked off in 1's & 2's but did that give them the right to kill people purely because they thought they might be terrorists?Quote:
There's a time for diplomacy and there's a time for action... we did our jobs abiding to the
Geneva Convention but when our soldiers are being pecked off 1-2 a day, it gets ridiculous..
we need to play on the same grounds as the enemy or those numbers will go up higher and
higher....
Well you expect us to help you...to let you in our Country to help you when someone attacks you??? so why shouldn't we expect the same???Quote:
And all of you expect us to help you... to let you in to our country, to help you when
someone attacks, to give grants for tourissm...
brother
dim witted?? once again grouping entire nations together because of theb actions (in this case words) of a few - really starting to become a habit for America isnt it???Quote:
I'm an American and there isn't a shot in hell that I'd give up what I have in America to
live with a bunch of dim-witted fools such as yourself..
and the fact thatv the american goverment knew about the attack on pearly harbour before it was due to happen and did nothing to stop it to give themselves an excuse to enter the war does not in any way take away from what you were saying.....also many noted historians have concluded that even without the Americans joing either o the WW's the out come would have been the same - it would perhaps have only taken longerQuote:
But when Japan attacked, we didn't want anything else
in what arrogance?? please think beofre you type you do not lead the world - what truely has america provided for the world other than the osbornes?? (who are british) What great writers has america produced that could rival the likes of shakepeare, Orwell, Shaw?? do they have painters to rival De Vinci or Michelangelo?? composores who can claim to be better than Beethoven??Quote:
we lead the world
I dont hate America - i quite like it even lived there a while and really enjoyed myself - and do not get me wrong I am not blaming the whole of America for your goverments actions - I am simply saying IMHO the way they have gone about trying to capture those responsible is wrong. And I do also feel bad for those who died in 9/11 and all the other times since - I truely feel for their families and can understand the hatred that has formed since then - but in order to be better than those who committed such crimes we can not stoop to their levelQuote:
Illegal, unless in a time of war... but why are you so stuck of this innocent Iraqi family
that gets hit by accident? Why don't I hear complaints about those 2000+ dead people in NYC
or those onboard the two planes (Pentagon and Pennsylvania).. those people are just as
innocent as the ones there, so what makes you care so much for them.. I know, ITS YOUR HATE
TOWARD AMERICA... IT MAKES US BAD AND EVERYONE ELSE GOOD!
jaguar291 mate no offence meant - i can see your very patriotic person and i commend you for it - but you need to seriously take a step back and look at your country and its place in the world as a whole - instead of looking out through rose tinted glasses
v_Ln
neel...just one thing...don't quote someone else and then jump my **** over it like you did in the first part of your latest post. Your views have been duely noted and if your country ever gets in trouble, I promise to protest any aid that my country might try to give you.
BTW...why is it that you hate America and it's citizens so much?
[edit] Calling me a Pussy is a bit drastic...you don't know me my friend nor do you know what I am capable of. You sit on your high horse and judge me "pussy" just because I am an American, yet in doing so you are doing one of the very things that you complain about. A wee bit hypocritical in my opinion, but since I am only an American I guess my opinion really doesn't matter, does it? [/edit]
you still didn't get me
I don't hate america or it's citizens. I wanted do discuss these issues I heard of about the US, who is like the most powerfull nation on earth now. They just did some bad things of wich I think shouldn't be tolerated from a nation like the US. They have enough power to do it the right way and they even agreed on it. I wanted to hear other points of view on only that small thing, because imo they are facts and can't be ignored. I didn't plan to get in another rant about terrorists and who's fault it all is and whatever.
And please don't get your feet on dutch ground if we're in trouble. I don't want your help.
p.s.
I don't understand what you said about
Quote:
neel...just one thing...don't quote someone else and then jump my **** over it like you did in the first part of your latest post
Thats what I am talking about.....you put someone elses words in my mouth. I don't mind you quoting me, just make sure it's something that I said when you do it.Quote:
You say, allenb, they kill so many people to get people to believe in Allah ?
You don't have to worry about me getting my feet on dutch ground....your attitudes have removed any desire I might have to see your country. Do us all a favor and don't defile US soil with your toes either. As for this conversation, I can see that it's just another "lets bash the US" festival so I'm going to try to stay out of it. I hope that you get great satisfaction from your thread neel, it's painfully obvious that you enjoy what you are doing. I should have known that trying to participate in a conversation with someone from a country where shooting up was legal would be an exercise in futility as evidenced by your inability to keep track of who said what.
These people were enemy combatants... which is perfectly legal, read the Geneva Convention buddy... we did not murder anyone... we were attacked and threatened, we took the necassary actions to prevent more deaths on our part...Quote:
They were caught and held without reason and some other things you knew if you read the articles. Also the US murdered nations with no good reason.
I know this useless, I know that you're not going to change what you believe and I won't either.... but I feel should I point out that I believe Bush is an idiot.. I will never intentionally quote him nor attempt to sound like him... I love my country and will support it to my death....Quote:
And quit the ****ing patriotism fool. Don't hide about you "fellow" americans. Show some more self thought out things instead of quoting President speeches all over. Try to be objective for a change.
I know you're going to quote me on this because "you didn't quote president speeches" or something. Think again if yer going to post that.
What does my country's age have to do with anything... we have the world's longest running and most stable government, our economy is well off better than most competing nations, and we have yet to be defeated (truly) in war... my country's age has nothing to do with how powerful or how great it is....Quote:
I'm sorry but this comment strikes me as out & out arrogance - if look at it on a global timescale America is really the baby brother - yes you maybe one of the super powers but historically America as it is today is a fairly new country.
I'm assuming you're the kind of person that even if he told you it to your face, you would still deny and claim some kind of excuse...Quote:
yes but how do you he did?? you know because you have seen it on TV in newspapers etc - but you dont know for sure - ever hear the expression 'dont believe everythign you hear in the nes?' - I am not saying he isn't responsible and most likly is but I just thought i would raise the point that we as a whole rely on the media way too much for information and are very easily swayed by it
The American government did NOT know that an attack would occur, they knew something was going on but disregarded it as not a threat... and those historians you speak of are random people who make up random thoughts like that... it is in history books (not one but most college accepted books worldwide) that if the US had not entered the war when Hitler made his push toward Paris, Europe would have fell within hours...Quote:
and the fact thatv the american goverment knew about the attack on pearly harbour before it was due to happen and did nothing to stop it to give themselves an excuse to enter the war does not in any way take away from what you were saying.....also many noted historians have concluded that even without the Americans joing either o the WW's the out come would have been the same - it would perhaps have only taken longer
Judge and judge... all people do is blame America for everything... what have we done wrong... we attacked a nation that habored terrorists, we attacked a country run by a man who killed his own people, a man that invaded Kuwait, a man that wanted to launch SCUDs at Isreal... we took out two nations that were nothing but scum....Quote:
I am simply saying IMHO the way they have gone about trying to capture those responsible is wrong. And I do also feel bad for those who died in 9/11 and all the other times since - I truely feel for their families and can understand the hatred that has formed since then - but in order to be better than those who committed such crimes we can not stoop to their level
I'll admit we aren't perfect... but I still don't see that we did something wrong.. we are taking care of problems that would only escalate over time... you think Saddam was going to leave everyone alone? Do you believe al-Quieda (misspelled?) was going to sit in a cave and play chess? No, these people were planning attacks and we took the necessary actions to eliminate the threat...Quote:
jaguar291 mate no offence meant - i can see your very patriotic person and i commend you for it - but you need to seriously take a step back and look at your country and its place in the world as a whole - instead of looking out through rose tinted glasses
But then he'll be back.. bitching that we didn't help, making accusations that we don't take enough action and so on....Quote:
Your views have been duely noted and if your country ever gets in trouble, I promise to protest any aid that my country might try to give you.
jag291
I'm sorry for that, that should've been cheyenne1212. I corrected it.Quote:
Thats what I am talking about.....you put someone elses words in my mouth. I don't mind you quoting me, just make sure it's something that I said when you do it.
Well I think this is going to be my last post in this thread. I'm getting tired of reading the long essays. lol
No matter what I will always stand by my country. I will stand by my president. We attack these countries because we must. Because its a game of surviving. If we allow these terrorists to thrive in countries then it makes the world a more dangerous place. We are defending our selves.
When the leaders of these countries refuse to co-operate, and continue to hide terrorists then they must be dealt with.Quote:
You can not punich a whole nation for one groups crimes - yes they need to be brought to justice but the tactics being used to do so tm are doing nothing for Americas popularity
We would like to be able to capture the people responsible for these attacks vahallen, but its a little hard to go into a country like Afghanistan, or Iraq and ask their president to hand over the terrorists. This is what it takes to eliminate terrorists. When you look at Afghanistan, and Iraq there are a lot of regular civilians who would be more than happy to take out an American. Therefore we must go into these countries in force and find all of these people.