Illegal Immigration - Help Save the USA!

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About the Hospitals, what's your point? Again, we have our own
homegrown, non-illegal people to tend to. At least you know why they
are drowning! Take Take Take.....Take. You think it would help if they
paid some taxes too, besides just at the local quick-e-mart? (Which is
the point)

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About the hospitals… too many see the illegals as only taking the low paying jobs and that’s it. There’s more to it than that. These people are costing us a bundle.

For them to pay taxes they would have to be legal aliens.

Your right about how our quality of life has been going steadily up hill due to the high customer service standards being adhered to by those filling these low paying jobs. Not.

I’m on the same side you are …I think

Yep Rust, and I bet you're pretty proud of that halo too...

Let me attempt to bring the language down to where everyone can understand the point I was trying to make:

It's not going to stop.

Just as in computer science anyone will tell you there's no such thing as a completely secure system, in reality, there are no such thing as completely secure borders. If we were to line up every cop and military person serving the US along our borders, they would *still* try to get in, and some would succeed.

And yes, "send us your criminals" is precisely what I'm saying. Our nation was founded by criminals - religious traitors, political dissidents, murderers, burglars, beggars, and thieves, and any other kind of outcast you can think of. We haven't done too badly so far eh?

Consider Australia for a moment too - it's non-aboriginal citizens are all descendents of criminals. The place was a bloody prison to start out! Have they done so badly either?

To close our borders and our eyes to the world is to commit suicide as a nation. China learned that lesson the hard way. Would you have us learn from their mistake or find out for ourselves?

As for border patrol, I submit to you that the officers serving there are every bit as well trained if not better trained than the police officers in your hometown. Have you ever served as a border patrol agent to contradict me on this?

As for the mass-murderers, you named one. I proved nothing for you other than to say that problem just like all the others already exist here. Wouldn't our moneys be better spent solving those things than pouring cash into the bottomless pit of trying to keep our borders closed?

Voting fraud - turn it again - how do you know it IS occurring, and that illegal immigrants are part of it?

Hospitals - not only are the poor overloading our hospitals, our veterans are. I'm one of the ones who gets free hospital care on your tax dollars. I also get free drugs too, and because my income is low, I get paid travel expenses for going to the hospital. 100 percent of all honorably-discharged veterans are eligible for that care. Welcome to the good ol' USA. Would you deny those who fought for your freedom that same care? I promise you Illegal Mexicans aren't taking it away from us, either in actual care, pharmacuticals, or standard of care.

Drug dollars - easy enough to fix. Legalize marijuana. Support NORML. :D Smoke one for me while you're at it, but tax it first.

You are absolutely correct in your assumption that we'll never agree on this issue. Polish that halo a bit more for extra points.

Wanna fix the prison problem? It's simple enough - enact the death penalty for everything stronger than a parking violation. Enforce it. Eventually there won't be enough of us left to keep the country populated.

I forgot to add, they are managing to wander on to our live firing ranges (tanks, aircraft, etc..) on our military bases. That cost money to halt operations, and with the cost of fuel it's really taxing. Not to mention that's interfering with combat training, which is interfering with security of our nation. A small interference, but an interference nonetheless.


Bottom line it's not fair to people like Negative. I would think that would be the state where you would get the biggest slap to the face. Plus the majority doesn't want them here. We can have and do what we want, we're AmeriCans.*right Negative* :D

Hi Imitation,

I agree with l3lacklce on a philosophical level...which is what his argument seems to be...

we seem to have three arguments going at once...an economic...a social...and a philosophical...

as for Negative...I doubt he is personally affected by mexican illegals.

As for not wanting them here...again, that is a social issue...eg. they are taking jobs away from Americans...this is not an economic argument.

Personally, I would be much more concerned if they were taking away the higher paying jobs as immigrants are here in Canada.

Eg ;)

Hi,

Once again I would emphasise that I am only commenting on parallelism across the pond :)

Over here we have a private health sector, and a public ("free") one..............the NHS (National Health Service) is the free one. ER is exclusively within the public sector (apart from military outfits) and they just do their job, without question, because they know who is going to pay.........the taxpayer.

We currently spend OVER $21 Billion on this service each year.

Now, this bit may be of interest?

If I use a doctor under the NHS, I don't pay him anything, and he claims his money from the NHS (government), the same thing with eye glasses and dentistry (although I have to make a fixed scale contribution). As soon as I do this I am on the social benefits and tax people's radar.........the only way to stay off the screen is to go private.......which for an illegal means that your livelihood has to be drugs or vice..........something criminal............maybe this is what is missing?

Now, we have "exploiters" the gang bosses who import illegals, find them work and accommodation etc and would cover their medical needs............. if only to cover their own a$$es :(

My crude extrapolations based on population suggest that for the USA to provide a similar NHS service would cost $100+ Billion a year?

Two questions:

1. What is the current spend on free medical services?
2. What is your minimum wage?

Cheers

HI nihil,

We have universal health care here too...which is overloaded and overworked and many nearby Americans cross the border for their free health care...and we give it without question...as our policy is if you need it you get it ...our hospitals do not turn anyone away.

General,

These technically are illegals using our services at the cost to our tax payers...should we refuse service based upon them not being legal residents?
To live in a free society there are things you must expect are going to happen...else, as l3lacklce said, you had better close your borders and hunker down and become an isolationist...this is the philosophical argument.

Getting back to the economic argument...if you could show how an American earning the same farm wage as the illegal mexican is not a drain as opposed to the mexican...I would agree...now someone will say that the American is paying taxes...maybe...but they are still spending the same amount of money...it does not matter whether it goes to taxes or the local tavern...it is being spent and therefore is benefitting the economy...refer back to the post where I give Neg $1000.

so far this has been the only possible valid economic argument against illegals...

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4# Majority of the money is exported(not spent in America).

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as I said...the only time you incur loss is when it leaves and doesn't come back.

There are two kinds of debt...debt you owe yourself and debt you are owed...the national deficit is misleading because it doesn't differentiate between the two in figures...the debt the country owes to itself is meaningless ( stocks, bonds, etc... )...the debt it owes out of country is very meaningful...the debt that the government is owed by foreign bodies ( trade deficits, etc... ) are very meaningful....to get a true deficit you subtract what you owe out of country from what you are owed in...and that is your true deficit...plus or minus...personal debt whether yours or the governments is as I said...meaningless in overall economics...I give you $1000, I'm out a $1000, and you're up $1000, it's still there...it's just changed hands.

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That's pure bull, Ega... do you really think there aren't enough legal Americans to work on farms? To clean toilets? To pick up the trash? To mow lawns?

Let's say there are 10 landscape companies in town, all hard-working companies with decently-paid employees with decent benefits. An 11th company enters the market and hires illegals. They pay those illegals $5 an hour and don't have to give them any benefits. In a year, the other 10 companies go out of business (who wants to pay $50 to have their lawn mown when you can have it done for $25?). It's not that the 10 companies can't find anyone to work for them - it's that they can't do it legally. And that is very very sad. So now those 10 companies have two choices: either cease to exist (read: being punished for following the law), or hiring illegals themselves. That's a loose-loose situation, Ega.

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This again is a social argument...and I agree on that basis.

As for the first part of your quote...at the present farm wages I would be hard pressed to think otherwise...if you were to raise the wage to make it more attractive then the same argument applies whether you are talking about illegals or legals...it doesn't matter who has the job from an economic standpoint if both are spending and benefitting the economy.


Eg ;)

OK Eg~ you asked for it................but remember I can only use my limited European experience :)

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These technically are illegals using our services at the cost to our tax payers...should we refuse service based upon them not being legal residents?

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I will take that one first because it is the easiest. The problem has arisen because the person is there in the first place. That is NO excuse to renage on your humanitarian duties? Hey! that would be like banging your head against a wall and taking aspirin because you have a headache?

It has been many years, but when I was a young and handsome auditor, I hooked up with this young NY journalist in London (England, not Ontario :D) Now she could live over here quite comfortably (and legally) on her UK salary. She paid local income and welfare taxes. So I was given the job of filing her US tax returns........................Naturally I invoked section 485 of our dual taxation agreement, and the IRS informed me that she was entitled to a $17,500 rebate if she earned qualifying income in the next seven years.

I naturally wrote to her old man, and suggested that he employ her as a "press secretary" in the big law firm he was senior partner of.................cheeky bugger offered me a job..............and he would have "fixed" the paperwork................so, I think would the IRS with whom I have always had a very amicable relationship.

My point here is that in most OECD countries the losses through tax evasion and benefits fraud, by far outweigh the cost of illegals.

Last figures I saw over here was that fraud/evasion was running at $25 Billion a year (USD)

Maybe we should clean up our own nests before complaining about the birds nesting next door? :D

just a few thoughts, I have no argument as such................I live too far away

Hi nihil,

I agree...this is an American problem that has nothing to do with me...but... :D ...it's been so long since I've had a good argument that I couldn't help myself...I've been starving for things to sink my teeth into :p

Eg ;)


EDIT: From an economic standpoint...as said...whether you're talking about a community or an entire country...as long as the money is not leaving it has no economic consequences...

I give you $1000 and you take that $1000 and give it to someone else...I'm out $1000, you are out $1000, the guy who has it is up $1000...the money has just changed hands...there is no economic loss.

This is where BUY AMERICAN or BUY CANADIAN comes into play...every time you buy make sure the money is staying put...if it's leaving then you are a drain on the economy.

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as for Negative...I doubt he is personally affected by mexican illegals.

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Depends on what you mean by "personally"... what I had to do to get into the States legally, though, was outrageous: $2,000 in lawyer fees because it's impossible to figure it out yourself, (long!) interviews with Homeland Security and Immigration, complete FBI background check, fingerprinted and put into every single law enforcement database, special requests to be able to take my Texas drivers' license tests... and guess what: I needed a completely blank criminal record - without one, they wouldn't have let me stay.

It's completely understandable, and I didn't really have a problem with it. But I do have a problem with others not having to go through it and getting more benefits.

Hi Negative,

I agree...there are so many social problems associated with this that it would be the much better argument...I myself oppose many aspects of immigration because I believe you cannot successfully help others from a position of weakness...one must of necessity first and foremost make his own house strong...then help from a position of strength.

Illegals should not get a free ride...they should have to go through the same channels as everyone else.

Eg ;)