Feds: Science paper a terrorist's road map

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June 17th, 2005, 11:38 AM
Aspman

The Government (US and UK) scare me a whole lot more than any terrorist.

The more I hear about Governments curtailing civil liberties in the cause of the 'war on terror' the more it degrades what is supposidly being saved.

How much longer before they tell us elections expose the populations to too great a risk and for our own safety the Pres/Pm is just going to stay on untill the terror threat is removed.

It's been 10 years since I've read 1984 but the idea of the perpetual war looms big in the back of my mind every time the 'war on terror' is mentioned.

They'll be burning books next.
June 17th, 2005, 12:02 PM
MURACU

We'll have the best of both worlds 1984 and Farenhite 451. I'm going to read while i still can.
June 17th, 2005, 03:19 PM
RoadClosed

It will be the terrorists that burn books, not us. Our citizens like to burn the flag though, and fraternize those who oppose our culture. The real danger lies there. I have posted the patriot act in it's entirety here before. Alot of the media and political grand standing in congress is "fluff". Call it Bull ****. Given that, I do NOT support it's renewal. The window of opportunity has passed, so to speak. Five years has been enough. In reality the Patriot Act took away no freedoms. It removed red tape. Something we all screamed for, the Liberal Dems a little louder. "Bush didn't do enough, the government didn't do enough" bla bla bla.

Muracu and the rest of the European lot... Live Aid? Nice.
June 17th, 2005, 04:40 PM
jinxy

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Live Aid? Nice.

Road,
its "Live 8" this time round. :p
June 17th, 2005, 10:35 PM
catch

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It will be the terrorists that burn books, not us.

Suffice to say, neither group puts much weight in education. Such is the way of conservatives everywhere however. If you have people reading, suddenly they start asking questions and doing nasty things like casting doubt on the utopian past they are being told to strive for by removing the infidels. Doesn’t matter if you’re a Christian fundamentalist or an Islamic one.

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Our citizens like to burn the flag though,

Yes some do, as a manner of expressing their disgust with the government. In fact, isn’t the singular principal of a free society the ability to criticize the government?

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and fraternize those who oppose our culture.

Evolution of democracy is not possible if we are not prepared to hear the other side.
-Mahatma Gandhi

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The real danger lies there.

Danger of what? Debasing good, wholesome nationalistic Christians with the idea that there exist more than one world view?

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I have posted the patriot act in it's entirety here before. Alot of the media and political grand standing in congress is "fluff". Call it Bull ****.

The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases.
-Thomas Jefferson

It should not be possible for the state to weaken the Bill of Rights on the whims of the current administration.

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Given that, I do NOT support it's renewal. The window of opportunity has passed, so to speak. Five years has been enough.

Unfortunately it is written in such a vague manner that makes it difficult to determine how much time is enough. Clearly you feel terrorist are still a threat, killing all those milk drinking mothers and children after all. Why is the USA PATRIOT Act unneeded now?

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In reality the Patriot Act took away no freedoms. It removed red tape.

What you call “red tape” the rest of us patriots call “due process” and “privacy.”

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Something we all screamed for, the Liberal Dems a little louder. "Bush didn't do enough, the government didn't do enough" bla bla bla.”

Not doing enough doesn’t mean do more actions, it means do more effective actions. Things like monitoring bookstores and libraries are useless actions and don’t do enough to fight terrorism. Does this mean I want them to monitor grocery and department stores as well? No, it means monitoring bookstores is useless, do something else.

catch
June 17th, 2005, 11:55 PM
RoadClosed

Hey Catch, couple of things. I do not believe in God, Budha or anything else exept science. Science is my god. I am a conservative liberal green capitalist left handed sociopath war monger neo con liberal. :D Welcome to Cosmos, I haven't see you posting here much before.

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Suffice to say, neither group puts much weight in education. Such is the way of conservatives everywhere however. If you have people reading, suddenly they start asking questions and doing nasty things like casting doubt on the utopian past they are being told to strive for by removing the infidels. Doesn’t matter if you’re a Christian fundamentalist or an Islamic one.

I would say the conservatives value education more. Using red ink, holding students reponsible and not lowering class expectations in order to even the playing field for a select few who don't "get it" I cast doubt on utopia the first time I saw Sally Stuthers parading human suffering for CASH. also the first time I saw the media leading me on a fish hook back in the 70s when I became "aware" of rational thought and news turn to a recap of one sided tragedy. There are a few tens of millions more of Islamic fundamentalists versus christian. The Christian's haven't waged war on Americans, man woman and child. So call me crazy, I tend to think those sworn to kill me are a little over the top.

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Yes some do, as a manner of expressing their disgust with the government. In fact, isn’t the singular principal of a free society the ability to criticize the government?

No argument with the freedom to do so, in fact I can have a book bonfire of my vanity if I desire. My point, burning books - burning flags, same thing. Destruction of symbology, no matter what side you are on. Actions of hate through intimidation of the hated and proliferation of your own value to those fueled by your action.

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Evolution of democracy is not possible if we are not prepared to hear the other side.
-Mahatma Gandhi

Amazing man. Listening is one thing, falling pray to cohersion and joining the fray is another matter. Gandhi would no be a victim. He would stand against the real opression in a peaceful way until his death.

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Danger of what? Debasing good, wholesome nationalistic Christians with the idea that there exist more than one world view?

The danger lies in those who debase the foundation of a culure. Great war fighters and academics have pointed that out in our past. Nothing christian about it, I bet you thought I was a god fearing man? If you think about it, debasing god and the holy roman empire lead to the dark ages. Not that I am comparing the US to Rome only the act of destroying a cuture from within. I wish I had more time this is an interesting discussion of modern philosophy and politcs. Debasing a Chistian view with one of a more fundamental and savage view is a danger in itself. One that is realistic.

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The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases.
-Thomas Jefferson

A very anti-socialist view and very conservative. The bigger the government the least independent it's people.

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It should not be possible for the state to weaken the Bill of Rights on the whims of the current administration.

I agree, if I thought for an instant the Patriot Act debased the Bill of Rights, I would whistle a different tune.

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What you call “red tape” the rest of us patriots call “due process” and “privacy.”

Due process is still intact. A patriot would allow a swift counter attack after the intitial fall out to protect the integrity of the Union. That adminstration includes a fully elected congress that approved the patriot act. The Patriot act also created funding for many programs unrelated to making it easier to tap someone with "DUE CAUSE". Without going into detail, oversight is there and reported to congress.

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Why is the USA PATRIOT Act unneeded now?

We haven't been attacked, border controls are in place, airline security is tighter, inter agency communication is better, the recomendations of the 911 committee are going forward and the overall threat is reduced and the imediate urgency is no longer necessary. The Patriot Act followed an attack where we knew with certainty there were more planned. But it doesn't change the fact they wouldn't think twice about doing it. Lock the damn trucks. Call it a "reduced" threat.

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Not doing enough doesn’t mean do more actions, it means do more effective actions. Things like monitoring bookstores and libraries are useless actions and don’t do enough to fight terrorism. Does this mean I want them to monitor grocery and department stores as well? No, it means monitoring bookstores is useless, do something else.

I agree it's inefficient. My point was at the time when the political fallout was going on blaming he and she and this party that party. "be careful what you wish for". At first I was against the patriot act but then I read it. I would like to know how they "think" they can monitor libraries with any kind of result. I don't remember that being in the P.A.

GTG it's Friday!
June 18th, 2005, 03:32 AM
catch

Thanks, this is an interesting forum, I like the idea of people having to defend themselves with words and not AP assignments as well.

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I would say the conservatives value education more.

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A very anti-socialist view and very conservative.

This is an interesting term these days. Neo-cons are not conservative at all, yet they still claim to be. The department of homeland security, the USA Patriot Act, a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, unprecedented deficits, increased military spending, invasion, etc. None of these things represent a conservative ideology.
The closest this could be called would be fascism. Large government spending with the objective of increasing the states control over both domestic and global affairs. Even the Supreme Court's decision regarding the 2000 election was not a conservative one. True conservatives would have never ruled that the federal government should quash state level authority.
Ever since Regan married the evangelical Christians to the Republican Party, the "conservatives" have been nothing but.

All of that aside, how can you say that people who wish creation to be taught instead of evolution are pro-education? How can you say that people who honest to goodness think that the world is 6000 years old value anything resembling science or common sense? How can you say that people who think this nation was founded on Christian principals by Christian founding fathers has ever done so much as open a history book, much less place any value on American history?
"Conservatives" say a lot of things about education, Leave No Child Behind ring any bells? Where is the action behind the words? The reality is, they've sought to bankrupt public education in lieu of government funded, private faith based education. This has been tried on the small scale with forced student strikes in the south and voucher programs.
We can't forget all the good Regan did with the introduction of standardized testing, leading to an environment of teaching to the test and not teaching the whole child. (All while his Secretary of the Interior was saying that there is no need to protect the environment, because the second coming is at hand) End result? The US consistently scores poorest of all industrialized nations on those tests. (On some subjects, like geography the US scores third from the bottom of the world.)

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There are a few tens of millions more of Islamic fundamentalists versus christian.

How many Islamic fundamentalists do you know? How many have you heard about on FOX News?

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The Christian's haven't waged war on Americans, man woman and child. So call me crazy, I tend to think those sworn to kill me are a little over the top.

While they have not waged a war against all American citizens (just non-believers, who according to Bush shouldn’t even be considered citizens) they have waged war against the American way of life and the ideals this nation was founded on. They have waged a war on science and reason. They have waged a war on tolerance and diversity. They have even waged war on democracy itself. (“Do you realize that the only thing that gives democracy existence is sin? The absence of democracy is perfect obedience to god." – Robert T. Lee of the Society for the Practical Establishment of the Ten Commandments)
To be perfectly honest, I would rather die in the twin towers than to be a part of this nation as a fascist, militant state, spreading hate, intolerance, fear, war, and ultimately vast death across the globe. Call me crazy.

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Listening is one thing, falling pray to cohersion and joining the fray is another matter.

Do you feel that you’ve listened to the other side? Do you feel you’ve even been given a chance to hear the other side? I don’t mean to be insulting, but from your posts I’d have to guess that you’ve made no efforts to listen. They are just all bad and evil and we are all good.

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If you think about it, debasing god and the holy roman empire lead to the dark ages.

This is not true at all. The dark ages resulted from the church having too much of a grip over Europe and halting scientific progress in exchange for mythology.

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Debasing a Chistian view with one of a more fundamental and savage view is a danger in itself. One that is realistic.

Unfortunately that is exactly what the likes of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, George W. Bush, James Dobson, Ann Coutler, et al are attempting and current succeeding in doing.

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The bigger the government the least independent it's people.

Exactly, hence the USA PATRIOT Act and the Department of Homeland Security maked us less independent and reduce our liberty.

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Due process is still intact.

Really? So all of that stuff about secret arrests, no right to speedy process, no right to jury of your peers, wire taps and searches without a warrant and secret searches. I am missing how due process is intact. Considering detainees down in Guantanamo Bay that have not been tried yet, how can you say due process is intact?

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We haven't been attacked, border controls are in place, airline security is tighter, inter agency communication is better, the recomendations of the 911 committee are going forward and the overall threat is reduced and the imediate urgency is no longer necessary.

Do you honestly think the reason we haven’t been attacked is because of the USA PATRIOT Act?
Border controls are not in place. It is still a trivial task to drive an uninsured/unregistered big rig over the Mexican border (they have locked down the northern border however) full of coke or nerve gas or god knows what.
Airline security is tighter? Why, because a $6.50 an hour person that barely speaks English and most of the time is literally wearing a turban makes you take off your shoes?
Interagency communication is better? The FBI (and many other federal agencies) are NOT even part of the department of homeland security!

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The Patriot Act followed an attack where we knew with certainty there were more planned. But it doesn't change the fact they wouldn't think twice about doing it. Lock the damn trucks. Call it a "reduced" threat.

Lock the trucks, lock the water supply, lock the meat supply, lock the grain supply, lock the power grid, lock the telecommunications grid… wait… where does this money come from?

The point of any war is to defeat your enemy by depleting their resources before they deplete your's. Running around responding to every obscure hypothetical threat like a chicken with its head cut off is a good or bad way to keep an even ratio of resources lost?

Fighting a war is one thing, Germany went from being flat broke to nearly taking over the world in less than a decade based on a war time economy. The US? We've turned a surplus into the biggest defecit in the nation's history in just 3 years of war time economy. Something isn't right with that.

catch
June 20th, 2005, 06:28 PM
¤The¤Spe©ialist

The UN likes to beleave it takes care of global affairs, the problem is they also beleave that they can go around taking care of domestic affairs... this being any European country or any country in or around the US.

Now just imagine having a man in a mixture of camo-gear and the color blue walking up and down your city streets with a machine gun. Entire "aid agencies" walking into your homes, local stores, & buisnesses and telling you what is a more effective and safe way to go about your life. I don't care how "sick & poor" you are... everyone will bitch about thier needs and yet as soon as it comes NO ONE is going to open their arms to that kinda "aid".

Needless attacks & control... groups like the UN have been doing this then laying the blame on various nations for years now. The US in particular. So this time around we're doing what what the rest of the world has been doing for centuries... only we're giving everyone else the middle finger esspecially to France, Germany, & Russia... they found some problems with attacking Iraq? They of all people "taking a stance", "standing up for whats right"? HAHA the irony!

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None of these things represent a conservative ideology.

If you want to walk around and call yourself a conservative... complain about something then change your mind the moment you get what you asked for.
June 20th, 2005, 08:09 PM
RoadClosed

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The closest this could be called would be fascism

Ack there is too much to discuss... :)

I loath the idea of Homeland security. Listen, if you remember the event- the media and the left were hounding the administration to do something. They did. "Bush failed to protect us, wa wa wa." We do not need the military patrolling our citizens. So based on that should I switch to the dark side?

While I see the benefit of some kind of controlled and standardized airline security program the idea of military patrolling our skies is not only fascist, it's fking communist. Perhaps if we stopped always placing blame on people when something does happen they would't be so eager to cover their political asses on both sides. I don't know how many blogs I read detailing the failure of Bushy to protect us, so Bush handed us a platter. Even after the 911 commission Kerry and Edwards constantly accused the "administration" of ignoring recomendations so they could infuriate the voter platform. Hell yes I want them ignored. Who wants a "tzar" operating outside the legislative branch? Imagine the power of that person?

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This is an interesting term these days. Neo-cons are not conservative at all, yet they still claim to be. The department of homeland security, the USA Patriot Act, a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, unprecedented deficits, increased military spending, invasion, etc. None of these things represent a conservative ideology.

You are right, they are liberal socialist ideals. Except for the military spending and invasion bit. In a nut shell and this goes back to Reagan as well. It's doing something about world ****tards versus whining about them in committees and ignoring them. Not perfect I know. If I read another liberal world womans conference thing I'll puke. Why meet if you will NEVER take the action to help? Does it make them feel good for a day?

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True conservatives would have never ruled that the federal government should quash state level authority.

Exactly how to they do that? Did the supreme court miscount the votes?

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how can you say that people who wish creation to be taught instead of evolution are pro-education

The creationists are on the defensive in this country. I have never seen anyone saying "instead of". I say what's wrong with two points of view? I would fight those who impose either restriction. Hell the creation class would be easy and quick. "God created man, any qustions?" versus a long scientific discussion of evolution and the origin of species. What is to fear there? Most of the planet believes in creation, those oppesed to it are a minority - even whacko liberals believe in some form of Astrology, or witchcraft, or earth energy or something with humans predestination outside science fact. Creation is a theory and since science can't explain even a small drop of how we exist outside of some theories, what the heck eh? I am not afraid of creationist thought, exept where christian junk science debases universal theories with no merit or out right lies.

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How can you say that people who think this nation was founded on Christian principals by Christian founding fathers has ever done so much as open a history book,

You don't think key persons involved in the founding of the union were religious? I do. In fact I believe the wanted to keep government from interfering with their beliefs and I think ALL western civilasations are founded on the same principles, not just America. It's just the way it is, like evolution - only the evolution of modern democracy.

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We can't forget all the good Regan did with the introduction of standardized testing, leading to an environment of teaching to the test and not teaching the whole child. (All while his Secretary of the Interior was saying that there is no need to protect the environment, because the second coming is at hand) End result? The US consistently scores poorest of all industrialized nations on those tests. (On some subjects, like geography the US scores third from the bottom of the world.)

As a horrible speller and test taker I agree with you then disagree. If the environement was like you say, teaching to a test, then we would score better since we have all the answers, wouldn'y we?. I was in school during Reagan and Carter and Ford and on. We took tests all the same. What about the college entry tests, do you think those are bad? But testing is not an overall guage of the effectiveness of teaching. It's a measure but the overall class experience is key. But how to you guage what needs work without tests? Doing away with all measures and making people feel good is not the answer either. Trust me my grades would have been much higher and I would have had more free time without them. In fact I have said it here before, I wouldn't have a problem putting my kid into a christian school if I had them. I would rather they learn in a competative environment with sports and some controls on activity versus a dull, lowest denomitator setting the pace, one. Even if that meant they might "gasp" believe in god. Or even better, make up their own choice. We have better control over our schools at a local level than federal. Who did you vote for in the last school board election? Anyone? What are your local big issues: condoms, soda machines and School Prayor. Insignificant drivel?

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Leave No Child Behind ring any bells?

Sure does. Increased accountability, less federal involvment more state involvment. At least we're trying reform versus just handing out money and ignoring the issue or taking away controls and passing the student on so he or she is not embarrased. I was lucky, I actually got edumicated. Not sure whats so bad about it other than Bush signed the Act.

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How many Islamic fundamentalists do you know? How many have you heard about on FOX News?

I don't watch TV. But I did see Fox news while eating at broadway deli this weekend. I noticed they use the word "terrorist" verus "insurgent" nice to have another point of view in a democracy. As for how many I know? A couple, but most people I have met in my travels are very nice. I have even been invited into mosques. Something not to be held lightly considering I am not a man of any cloth and of western decent.

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While they have not waged a war against all American citizens (just non-believers, who according to Bush shouldn’t even be considered citizens)....

. That's a bunch of B.S. besides when I said "War" I meant they aren't going out and suicide bombing a Gay Pride Parade. I would place fanatatism more on the left than right. And I am a nonbeliever. Science, yeah reason.. not so cut. I have had many irrational discussions from nonchristians. The lack of reason permeates both sides. The two most intolerant societies I have vistited are the whole of the far east (middle east and asia) the second was San Fransisco. Neither are whole heartedly Christian.

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would rather die in the twin towers than to be a part of this nation as a fascist, militant state, spreading hate, intolerance, fear, war, and ultimately vast death across the globe. Call me crazy.

I would rather fight those who made it so. Last I checked I was still free to blow my verbal load. The "insugents" will kill me if I show up in some alley in Siria, Iran, Yemen and a host of other really intolerent places. In San Fransisc I would probably be fined for hate speech since I said it was OK to be christian.

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Do you feel that you’ve listened to the other side?

I've not only listened for 30 years, I have been there. The other side talks with bombs strapped to pregnant women so she can take two souls to heaven. Kill a bird with 2 stones I guess.

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The dark ages resulted from the church having too much of a grip over Europe and halting scientific progress in exchange for mythology.

That is true, although I think perhaps that is what extended it and it was the fall over the roman empire that let the corrupt church leaders gain control? The romans kept some commense sense into it.
[quoteUnfortunately that is exactly what the likes of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, George W. Bush, James Dobson, Ann Coutler, et al are attempting and current succeeding in doing.[/quote] If I really thought Bush was in the likes of Pat and Jerry his ass would have been handed to him. Should I name the kooks on the left? If anything they are succeeding in slowing a losing battle.

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Exactly, hence the USA PATRIOT Act and the Department of Homeland Security maked us less independent and reduce our liberty.

I don't agree that it makes us less independent or reduces liberty. If anything it removes government which is not necessary to overturn. As for Homeland Security... axe it. But don't bitch the next time it happens. Accept the risk that people want to kill us because we are in their "holy" land.

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Do you honestly think the reason we haven’t been attacked is because of the USA PATRIOT Act?

No it's because we have their asses in GTMO. We disabled Al Quida in Afganistan, we siezed terrorist assets. The Patriot Act helped in a few ways. There are a whole slew of reasons.

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Really? So all of that stuff about secret arrests, no right to speedy process, no right to jury of your peers, wire taps and searches without a warrant and secret searches. I am missing how due process is intact. Considering detainees down in Guantanamo Bay that have not been tried yet, how can you say due process is intact?

I was talking about citizens in the country legally.
[quote]Border controls are not in place. It is still a trivial task to drive an uninsured/unregistered big rig over the Mexican border (they have locked down the northern border however) full of coke or nerve gas or god knows what.
Airline security is tighter? Why, because a $6.50 an hour person that barely speaks English and most of the time is literally wearing a turban makes you take off your shoes?
Interagency communication is better? The FBI (and many other federal agencies) are NOT even part of the department of homeland security![/quote}
Damn right but I see progress and they are better. But Bush fails with the mexican border, why? He's a liberal on the issue. I fly alot and airline security is better. It was left up to the airlines in the past. I hope to god the FBI NEVER NEVER NEVER becomes part of Homeland Security. A military operation. If that happens I would stard to take your view on fascism.

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Lock the trucks, lock the water supply, lock the meat supply, lock the grain supply, lock the power grid, lock the telecommunications grid… wait… where does this money come from?

They are already locked. When is the last time anyone could waltz into a telecommunications hub or power plant? But really all I was saying is a truck hauling food should be locked don't you think? You have to have some commone sense, you can't lock up everything so perhaps you take the ware to them and prevent germany from happening in the first place? I wasn't saying that it was probable to infect I milk truck. I was saying they would not have a problem doing it from a phsycological stand point. As for war and budgets. WW2 practically bankrupted germany and england. Besides the Nazis (who were godless socialists by the way) in germany were taking over the wealth of other countries in the process: The United States declared itself Nuetral in 1939 and didn't enter the war until 1941 after England fought for years and Germany invaded country after country. The Nazis were book burners too. They burned Einstein, poetry, HG Wells etc.
June 20th, 2005, 09:59 PM
catch

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Exactly how to they do that? Did the supreme court miscount the votes?

The Supreme Court put a stop to the official recount. This was a very liberal move in putting federal power over what is clearly a state matter. Subsequent recounts all indicated that Gore won. Effectively, yes, they did miscount the votes.
My concern with that is that it went on party lines and not ideological lines, because the conservatives should have been the ones saying to keep their hands off of the state affairs. Not step in when it could help someone they like. This makes the government an unpredictable "Us against them." system instead of doing what they can for the nation.

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The creationists are on the defensive in this country.

The word you are looking for is "offensive."

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I have never seen anyone saying "instead of".

Then you have been paying very poor attention, as they would say... "you damned pluralist!" ;)

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I say what's wrong with two points of view?

In that case, what is wrong with any mythological idea of the beginning of the universe? Why not teach them all as fact? There are many interesting pagan ideas on the subject.

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Hell the creation class would be easy and quick. "God created man, any qustions?" versus a long scientific discussion of evolution and the origin of species. What is to fear there?

The issue here is teaching myth as fact. This is magnified by magnitude of a "God of the Gaps" to those who are undereducated. They don't understand the spontaneous creation of life through chemical means. Consequently it must have been "god". They are still learning that they are an individual, the idea of a connection to all other living things through evolution is just too big to grasp. Again, "god" is the simpler answer. In time the ability for complex thought, an understanding of causality, and even basic problem solving skills are replaced with willful ignorance, blind faith, and prayer.
Is that the kind of society you want to live in?

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Most of the planet believes in creation, those oppesed to it are a minority - even whacko liberals believe in some form of Astrology, or witchcraft, or earth energy or something with humans predestination outside science fact. Creation is a theory and since science can't explain even a small drop of how we exist outside of some theories, what the heck eh?

Ah, the whole "most people believe it so it must be true. Unfortunately this is not true. Only about 40% of the planet even subscribes to a faith the has creationism... and only really fundamental types will turn their back on science. Now... "wacko liberals" Why don't we teach their beliefs as fact? A lot of pagan myth is far more interesting and involved than Christian myth. Why not teach major eastern ideas of the beginning of the universe?
I guess you find something comforting and safe about the idea of a childish brat of a god (or is it gods?) that wants his play things to be forever ignorant and then gets pissy when, despite all of his power, puts the tree right there (similar level of foresight to leaving a loaded gun in your kid's toy box and warning them not to play with it.) to tempt them and well something about his mortal enemy slipping in under gods nose, blah, blah...
In fact, I say teach them all, as each teaches a considerable amount about their respective cultures! Just not as fact.

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You don't think key persons involved in the founding of the union were religious?

Sure, mostly Deists.

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If the environement was like you say, teaching to a test, then we would score better since we have all the answers, wouldn'y we?

Simple, linear, and consequently flawed logic. The same logic that has lead to a drop in those same tests.
This issue is really the subject of a whole new thread. Suffice to say, the education system in this country has gone to hell.

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Not sure whats so bad about it other than Bush signed the Act.

And then pulled it's funding.

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As for how many I know? A couple, but most people I have met in my travels are very nice.

Exactly, most people anywhere are nice. The media is trying to get us to believe (and most people do believe) that all Muslims want to kill all Americans, because they are *laugh* jealous of us.

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That's a bunch of B.S. besides when I said "War" I meant they aren't going out and suicide bombing a Gay Pride Parade.

What part of it is BS? So by war you mean explosions only. And suicide bombings? That is the action of a weak suppressed power, not an overt force like the US government. They don't need bomb to enforce their will over Americans, that doesn't make it any less of a war against a way of life.

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I've not only listened for 30 years, I have been there. The other side talks with bombs strapped to pregnant women so she can take two souls to heaven. Kill a bird with 2 stones I guess.

More sensationalism?

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If I really thought Bush was in the likes of Pat and Jerry his ass would have been handed to him.

You don't think Bush is, are you serious?

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No it's because we have their asses in GTMO. We disabled Al Quida in Afganistan, we siezed terrorist assets. The Patriot Act helped in a few ways. There are a whole slew of reasons.

So ignorance really is bliss.

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They are already locked. When is the last time anyone could waltz into a telecommunications hub or power plant?

This securities are woefully insufficient.

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Besides the Nazis (who were godless socialists by the way)

Ok, your arguments have spiraled out to a stance of completely uneducated propaganda. The Nazis were not "godless" in any sense of the word. They were in fact largely Christian. In fact Hitler himself and all primary Nazi leaders were Christian. They were never condemned by the church (after all, the Jews killed Christ, Hitler was just giving them payback.) In fact Martin Borman was the only high ranking, godless Nazi.

In fact: "I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord’s work."
- Adolf Hitler

Führer even means, "God's Chosen Leader"

An let us not forget: "We have undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."
-Adolf Hitler

cheers,

catch

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