Hackers, Spelling, and Grammar?

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Originally posted here by Cache
I can't really understand blaming this problem on the times. I'm 18, had a computer during the (more) imporatant times of my life (writing papers, typing essays, etc. etc.), and still turned out very grammatically correct.

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I have to agree, I don't think that computers are making the youth of today write and speak the way they do as much as lack of quality in education.

I'll 100% admit that I did not know the proper places to us a comma until my freshman semester in college. The way it was originally taught to me in public school, from many teachers, was that if you are speaking the words and pause you should put a comma. This is NOT true at all. In a lot of cases they do coincide, but this is not the law of the land.

None the less english is taught in K-12, but you can easily pass without knowing a whole lot about anything. Spellings was from K-6 and that only included words on a 6th grade reading level. After that the only time spelling was graded was on the yearly research paper, that was typed and gone over with a fine tooth comb. Anyone should be able to spell right when they have 2 months to write 5 pages.

My mom used to tell me about "diagramming a sentence". I have NEVER done this in my life. I think enlish education in the US (or atleast around here) is VERY subpar.

Cache, you may be one of the few that takes the time to review their papers, essays and/or reports before submitting them. I have received a paper written in IM language (along with paragraphs of perfect english -- copied directly from the web, of course). And I have had arguments with students about the importance of being able to write coherently, clearly, concisely and effectively. They, or so they have told me, believe that it's not the writing that matters but the doing. And that the technology will speak for itself.

I usually ask them how they intend on getting that technology if don't know how to put in a decent argument in favour of that specific technology. I am finding that fewer students understand how to write an essay, how to do simple footnoting or bibliographies, how to quote properly or even how to do research properly for their papers. They would rather finish it quickly, get it out of the way and then go and play. The Entertainment Ethic runs higher, I guess, than the Work Ethic.

And, by the way, if you are looking for a straighforward, layman's look at grammar go to your local library and get Eats, Shots and Leaves by Lynne Truss. Excellent book. Very humourous but to the point.

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Originally posted here by MsMittens
Cache, you may be one of the few that takes the time to review their papers, essays and/or reports before submitting them. I have received a paper written in IM language (along with paragraphs of perfect english -- copied directly from the web, of course). And I have had arguments with students about the importance of being able to write coherently, clearly, concisely and effectively. They, or so they have told me, believe that it's not the writing that matters but the doing. And that the technology will speak for itself.

I usually ask them how they intend on getting that technology if don't know how to put in a decent argument in favour of that specific technology. I am finding that fewer students understand how to write an essay, how to do simple footnoting or bibliographies, how to quote properly or even how to do research properly for their papers. They would rather finish it quickly, get it out of the way and then go and play. The Entertainment Ethic runs higher, I guess, than the Work Ethic.

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I think this is because kids get by with less and less from the lower grades. Low grade teachers need to hold kids to a higher standard and they will begin to take pride in their work.

Just the other day, one of the girls at my fiances office asked me how to spell something that she was typing into an email. I forget what the word was, but she typed something and tried to spell check it yet it gave her no suggestions. You have to atleast be able to get the word close for the technology to be able to decypher it.

I used to hate when students would ask "how do you spell xxx" and the teacher would reply "look it up in the dictionary". To know how to look something up in the dictionary sort of means you know how to spell it already. It just leaves the clueless people clueless.

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Just the other day, one of the girls at my fiances office asked me how to spell something that she was typing into an email. I forget what the word was, but she typed something and tried to spell check it yet it gave her no suggestions. You have to atleast be able to get the word close for the technology to be able to decypher it.

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That shows a dependence on technology rather than mastering it as a tool, which is what it's supposed to be. Isn't it?

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I used to hate when students would ask "how do you spell xxx" and the teacher would reply "look it up in the dictionary". To know how to look something up in the dictionary sort of means you know how to spell it already. It just leaves the clueless people clueless.

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There is a bit of logic to that. You should understand basic language structure (th sounds, ch-u sounds, etc.) and know at least where to start. We don't break down words like we used to (I go through the description of what the word cryptography and steganography are to my students and some are "amazed" at the definition) nor do we spend the time on the history or origin of words.

I suspect there are many factors involved in this "degradation" but I don't doubt that the Information Age (apparently the age we are presently experiencing) is overflowing us with too much information. I am finding that it's not just geeks that are affected by this but all areas of education. What the impact will be in 50, 100, 200 years is hard to say. It's impact today may be resulting in some time lost while an employee waits for the "machine" to tell it how to spell "grammar".

By the way, using google and it's define operator can be helpful in this endeavour. :D

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Originally posted here by zENGER
My mom used to tell me about "diagramming a sentence". I have NEVER done this in my life. I think enlish education in the US (or atleast around here) is VERY subpar.

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I actually have diagrammed sentences in my school, which I couldn't find any relevant uses for this skill, but it came quite easily. It was very logical and didn't seem to require that much thought process. What's funny is I always thought my school district was behind others (I live in Appalachia :P) but it seems that we aren't as bad as I had thought. Doesn't do me much good now since I've graduated.

Nobody is allowed to fail anymore.

Everyone has a degree. Now a degree is almost worthless on the job market.
You're going to need a degree to be a cleaner soon.


Industry and higher education tell the press that school leavers can no longer read and write properly but exam pass rates for schools are higher than ever.

Hi Aspman

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Industry and higher education tell the press that school leavers can no longer read and write properly but exam pass rates for schools are higher than ever.

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Is that because they are being taught and examined by their peers?

:cool:

Hey Nihil,

I'm not sure what you mean.

My GF teaches Business Studies (Accounts, Admin and Management) she does correct the kids work for spelling and grammar but she doesn't mark it down unless it's particularly bad.
Marking seems to be aimed to marking the kids work for a particular subject and not for picking up general cross-curricular issues.

I think I can remember my school work being marked in a similar way.

I think its all about money. Schools get money per kid they have in school. Lower the requirements and less will drop out, and thus they get more money from the gov't.

Aspman

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I'm not sure what you mean.

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I meant that if the teachers don't have the skills they cannot impart them to their pupils, or examine them?

"trial by one's peers"?

:)