An "Intelligently Designed" Ruling?

Relyt >

It's interesting that you mention the Pledge of Allegiance, since the original Pledge didn't have any reference to God in it. It wasn't until the 1950's (more than 60 years later) that some obscure right-wing group ("The Knights of Columbus") convinced Congress to add "under God" to it.

I find your linking of the banning of prayer in school to the uprise of violence humorous, considering that violence has gone down seriously in the last decade... The Justice Department doesn't have its head up its ass: crime has gone down seriously since 1993.

It's also interesting that you call those who interprete the First Amendment as a call for separation fo church of state, liars, especially since 1000's of constitutional specialists still can't agree on the exact meaning of those words. Time after time, though, the Supreme Court rules that, indeed, the First Amendment calls for an absolute separation of church and state.

Also: you make it sound like the Founding Fathers came to America for religious reasons ("Anyone want to speculate as to why they went out to find a new world?")... "they" doesn't mean the Founding Fathers, I may hope...

And "In God we Trust" wasn't put on coins until the late 19th century, while it didn't even appear on bills until some 50 years ago. It's got nothing to do with the early settlers, nor has it anything to do with the Founding Fathers.

Relyt >

It's interesting that you mention the Pledge of Allegiance, since the original Pledge didn't have any reference to God in it. It wasn't until the 1950's (more than 60 years later) that some obscure right-wing group ("The Knights of Columbus") convinced Congress to add "under God" to it.

I find your linking of the banning of prayer in school to the uprise of violence humorous, considering that violence has gone down seriously in the last decade... The Justice Department doesn't have its head up its ass: crime has gone down seriously since 1993.

It's also interesting that you call those who interprete the First Amendment as a call for separation fo church of state, liars, especially since 1000's of constitutional specialists still can't agree on the exact meaning of those words. Time after time, though, the Supreme Court rules that, indeed, the First Amendment calls for an absolute separation of church and state.

Also: you make it sound like the Founding Fathers came to America for religious reasons ("Anyone want to speculate as to why they went out to find a new world?")... "they" doesn't mean the Founding Fathers, I may hope...

And "In God we Trust" wasn't put on coins until the late 19th century, while it didn't even appear on bills until some 50 years ago. It's got nothing to do with the early settlers, nor has it anything to do with the Founding Fathers.

Neg >

Quote:

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It's interesting that you mention the Pledge of Allegiance, since the original Pledge didn't have any reference to God in it. It wasn't until the 1950's (more than 60 years later) that some obscure right-wing group ("The Knights of Columbus") convinced Congress to add "under God" to it.

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Actually it was on June 14, 1954 - incidently Flag Day, that President Dwight D. Eisenhower approved the change. And here's his exact words and it is very self-explanatory in regards to what the strength of this nation was based upon.

"In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."

I put the word "was" in bold as in past tense.

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I find your linking of the banning of prayer in school to the uprise of violence humorous,

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I find your lack of understanding or denial towards the direct correlation humourous. Regardless, it's not humorous to the young folks in school today. To provide such a generalized statement as, "crime has gone down seriously since 1993." is silly at best. Stats can be twisted just like the Constitution.

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the First Amendment calls for an absolute separation of church and state.

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Ole Thomas Jefferson must be rolling in his grave about now! Where it all began on January 1, 1802; in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut

Jefferson penned:

"I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

And of course we are aware of the First Amendment which says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." But what is missing? Clearly "state", "church", and of course "separation". They don't even appear in the First Amendment.

Unlike today, 52 out of the 55 folks that worked on the U.S. Constitution were evangelical Christians. That document was based upon principles derived from Christianity. It was their hope that this nation would continue to be a Christian nation. It is no surprise that "1000's of constitutional specialists still can't agree on the exact meaning of those words." written by religious men. That's not a first in History.

Neg >

Quote:

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It's interesting that you mention the Pledge of Allegiance, since the original Pledge didn't have any reference to God in it. It wasn't until the 1950's (more than 60 years later) that some obscure right-wing group ("The Knights of Columbus") convinced Congress to add "under God" to it.

---

Actually it was on June 14, 1954 - incidently Flag Day, that President Dwight D. Eisenhower approved the change. And here's his exact words and it is very self-explanatory in regards to what the strength of this nation was based upon.

"In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."

I put the word "was" in bold as in past tense.

Quote:

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I find your linking of the banning of prayer in school to the uprise of violence humorous,

---

I find your lack of understanding or denial towards the direct correlation humourous. Regardless, it's not humorous to the young folks in school today. To provide such a generalized statement as, "crime has gone down seriously since 1993." is silly at best. Stats can be twisted just like the Constitution.

Quote:

---

the First Amendment calls for an absolute separation of church and state.

---

Ole Thomas Jefferson must be rolling in his grave about now! Where it all began on January 1, 1802; in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut

Jefferson penned:

"I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

And of course we are aware of the First Amendment which says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." But what is missing? Clearly "state", "church", and of course "separation". They don't even appear in the First Amendment.

Unlike today, 52 out of the 55 folks that worked on the U.S. Constitution were evangelical Christians. That document was based upon principles derived from Christianity. It was their hope that this nation would continue to be a Christian nation. It is no surprise that "1000's of constitutional specialists still can't agree on the exact meaning of those words." written by religious men. That's not a first in History.

Ah come on, Relyt. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/

There is not even a correlation between crime statistics and the banning of prayer, let alone a causality...

Ah come on, Relyt. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/

There is not even a correlation between crime statistics and the banning of prayer, let alone a causality...

Oh Neg,

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There is not even a correlation between crime statistics and the banning of prayer,

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Surely you don't believe any government agency would publish any such document. (Separation of Church and State:))

:p

Oh Neg,

Quote:

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There is not even a correlation between crime statistics and the banning of prayer,

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Surely you don't believe any government agency would publish any such document. (Separation of Church and State:))

:p

Hey Hey,

I considered not posting... but since this is the only time that Evil Moo and I will probably ever agree I had to say something...

When I first heard that there were some schools teaching ID instead of Evolution... I cried...

My sister took World Religions in high school... it was taught there and that makes sense... but to teach it in a science class... Evolution is science.... so teach it... ID != science....

Teach ID in science class, would be no different than me taking "The Day the Earth Stood Still" or "The Day the World Ended" and showing it in history class as history...

I must say... (and this is going to sound quite rude) but I never would have thought that anyone on this site would have believed in ID.... I accept religion (most of the time) and I can put some of my faith into a God that I can't see or hear or feel... When I was younger I believed in Santa and the Easter Bunny and they made me feel happy and warm and fuzzy :)... so I figure I might as well believe in God now.. (That may sound like sarcasm.. but that's the real reason I believe...) I believe in God only sofar as to say that I believe He's make-believe but that the belief in Him brings comfort and for that reason I want to believe but the analytical part of my mind won't let it go any further than that... Now back to the part that's going to sound rude... I always thought that ID was for those with lower IQs (I.E. a lot of people in Southern States), those who just couldn't accept science and reality and those who were so lost that they just needed something to focus on and someone had shown them this light.. Now I generally think that most members of AO are rather intelligent... especially the members that I've seen post in this thread, that's why I find it so hard to believe that any of you would believe in ID...

As for the whole religion in school thing... I think that an option World Religion class in high school is fine... but beyond that it should be seperate... Relyt, you said it was just to stop a mandatory religion... and that's all and good but I think as we've evolved as a people that has evolved as well... We need to make our own choices and beliefs and as soon as you involve the slightest big of religion in school you are, in a minor sense, creating a mandatory religion... You're forcing me to listen to something that I don't believe in and that I know cannot be true (My God strike me dead when I hit the post button if it is). I was raised Catholic, church every sunday, communion... (luckily I was able to get out of having to do confession)... and I remember doing The Lords Prayer every morning when they did morning announcements... but that ended around gr 5 or 6 I believe.. It wasn't fair to those that weren't of that faith or that didn't believe to be forced to do it... The JW's could go stand in the hall but if you were an athiest (since we were young and didn't know better... still a crock of bull if I've ever seen one)... you were forced to do it. The whole seperation of church and state is why it's a crock that Bush is president... You should never let someone preside over a country who's life is so heavily dictated by a fictional character.... The next thing you know you'll have a president who has everything changed to "In Bugs Bunny We Trust"... At the same time that might be better... at least you aren't forcing the belief onto anybody.. Bugs Bunny transcends religion... God does not...

Anyways.. I've spouted enough of what most of you will call garbage.

Peace,
HT

Hey Hey,

I considered not posting... but since this is the only time that Evil Moo and I will probably ever agree I had to say something...

When I first heard that there were some schools teaching ID instead of Evolution... I cried...

My sister took World Religions in high school... it was taught there and that makes sense... but to teach it in a science class... Evolution is science.... so teach it... ID != science....

Teach ID in science class, would be no different than me taking "The Day the Earth Stood Still" or "The Day the World Ended" and showing it in history class as history...

I must say... (and this is going to sound quite rude) but I never would have thought that anyone on this site would have believed in ID.... I accept religion (most of the time) and I can put some of my faith into a God that I can't see or hear or feel... When I was younger I believed in Santa and the Easter Bunny and they made me feel happy and warm and fuzzy :)... so I figure I might as well believe in God now.. (That may sound like sarcasm.. but that's the real reason I believe...) I believe in God only sofar as to say that I believe He's make-believe but that the belief in Him brings comfort and for that reason I want to believe but the analytical part of my mind won't let it go any further than that... Now back to the part that's going to sound rude... I always thought that ID was for those with lower IQs (I.E. a lot of people in Southern States), those who just couldn't accept science and reality and those who were so lost that they just needed something to focus on and someone had shown them this light.. Now I generally think that most members of AO are rather intelligent... especially the members that I've seen post in this thread, that's why I find it so hard to believe that any of you would believe in ID...

As for the whole religion in school thing... I think that an option World Religion class in high school is fine... but beyond that it should be seperate... Relyt, you said it was just to stop a mandatory religion... and that's all and good but I think as we've evolved as a people that has evolved as well... We need to make our own choices and beliefs and as soon as you involve the slightest big of religion in school you are, in a minor sense, creating a mandatory religion... You're forcing me to listen to something that I don't believe in and that I know cannot be true (My God strike me dead when I hit the post button if it is). I was raised Catholic, church every sunday, communion... (luckily I was able to get out of having to do confession)... and I remember doing The Lords Prayer every morning when they did morning announcements... but that ended around gr 5 or 6 I believe.. It wasn't fair to those that weren't of that faith or that didn't believe to be forced to do it... The JW's could go stand in the hall but if you were an athiest (since we were young and didn't know better... still a crock of bull if I've ever seen one)... you were forced to do it. The whole seperation of church and state is why it's a crock that Bush is president... You should never let someone preside over a country who's life is so heavily dictated by a fictional character.... The next thing you know you'll have a president who has everything changed to "In Bugs Bunny We Trust"... At the same time that might be better... at least you aren't forcing the belief onto anybody.. Bugs Bunny transcends religion... God does not...

Anyways.. I've spouted enough of what most of you will call garbage.

Peace,
HT