Get the popcorn...

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That is how I perceive things to currently be; and is consistent with society's approach to other moral issues. My point being that "morality" is both individual and collective, and the two may use quite different rulesets?

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If I follow you correctly, yes it certainly is true.

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I don't know what things are like where you are, but they are certainly not clear cut over here. I see atheists, humanists, and agnostics on the side of the pro-life/anti-abortionists and members of religions taking an opposing view. My point would be that this is not a black and white, "us and them" situation.

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I would dare to say this is the case here also. You would not be too hard pressed to find "members of religions" advocating abortion rights. I question their interpretation of the Scripture though. And I'm sure there are atheists and others who oppose abortion on moral grounds. I'm just not enthralled with moral grounds based on purely human reasoning which changes so quickly it seems.

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I'm just not enthralled with moral grounds based on purely human reasoning which changes so quickly it seems.

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I am actually not that convinced that ideas change that rapidly. Over here we only repealed the death penalty for homosexuality in 1848, women did not get the vote until around 1920 and it is only in the last 35 years or so that the situation where you would be expected to fight and die for your country three years before you had the right to elect the people who sent you, was resolved.

This may sound corny, but when we are determining the "rules" of the societies in which we live, I feel that it is more important that we have dialogue rather than diatribe and consultation rather than confrontation. For example, if Christians pull back and entrench themselves, they are ignoring a very important instruction: "Go forth and preach the Gospel"

It is the responsibility of the truly religious to cogently argue their case and persuade other members of society to support them in determining collective "rules"? Histrionics and violence obviously have no part in this process.

:)

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advocating abortion rights

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Ah! interesting point............are we talking "rights" or "grounds" there is a difference is there not?

Hi Negative,

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especially like what a loving and forgiving god he seems to be... I

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Well, actually the Bible does speak a good deal about God's love and forgiveness-- it is there waiting-- for anyone who wants it.

I suppose the question here is: "Does God have a right to punish sin?" Well, what would you do if you were God? How would you run the world? Would you be so loving and forgiving that you never enforce consequences for wrongdoing?

Let's say you are the police chief of a town. You allow criminals to steal, rob, rape and pillage. Citizens come to you and complain: "What are you doing? Why aren't you enforcing law and order?" You say, "Well, I'm just being loving and forgiving." Love does not mean letting the world run wild.

preacherman481

Are you aware that God is not a "just God" in fact he is extremely unjust ;)

Beware! that IS a trick question.

:halo:

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t is the responsibility of the truly religious to cogently argue their case and persuade other members of society to support them in determining collective "rules"? Histrionics and violence obviously have no part in this process.

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Yes, I truly agree with this.

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This may sound corny, but when we are determining the "rules" of the societies in which we live, I feel that it is more important that we have dialogue rather than diatribe and consultation rather than confrontation. For example, if Christians pull back and entrench themselves, they are ignoring a very important instruction: "Go forth and preach the Gospel"

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Yes, I agree with this also. Actually, though, I believe working to change civil laws is a relatively small part of what is important. I did not turn cartwheels when Judge Alito was confirmed. The only truly moral behavior is that which springs from a love for God. If love for God was the ruling force in every person's life, we would not need laws and courts-- or abortions for that matter.

[QUOTE] Originally posted here by nihil
[B]preacherman481

Are you aware that God is not a "just God" in fact he is extremely unjust

Beware! that IS a trick question.

Ok, Johnno, you need to explain this one to me. I freely admit I night the sharpest knife in the drawer.

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The only truly moral behavior is that which springs from a love for God

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For us, yes, but it is important that we get like minded persons on our side, whatever their motivations might be?

And you have not answered my trick question :D

EDIT: Sorry, I missed your post by one minute!

The argument is that if God were "just" by our standards, we would all be doomed? it is because he is unjust (biased towards us) that we have hope of salvation. Perhaps that is why we should be careful as to how we fashion our laws?

I can find you exactly the same in Islam, although I cannot remember the Hadith off the top of my head. Crudely translated it says "Oh! son of Adam, even if your sins stretch from the bottom of the deepest ocean up unto the seventh heaven, if you truly repent, I shall forgive you"

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Well, actually the Bible does speak a good deal about God's love and forgiveness-- it is there waiting-- for anyone who wants it.

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Yes... but the problem (and it really is a problem!) is that you, just like they used to do in the good old days of the Inquisition, will only quote what you see fit for the situation at hand. You'll quote god's wrath when you need to prove how powerful he is, you'll quote his love when you need to prove that he's a nice dude...

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I suppose the question here is: "Does God have a right to punish sin?" Well, what would you do if you were God? How would you run the world? Would you be so loving and forgiving that you never enforce consequences for wrongdoing?

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No, that's not the question. According to you, didn't he already punish sin (in the garden), thus punishing us for eternity?
And you shouldn't ask me what I would do if I were god... a supreme being surely should know how to solve a problem of that magnitude, no? Or is he just toying? Giving us free choice, but not really... if we do choose for ourselves, he'll smack us down... if we follow his pre-determined choice, we'll be fine... that's what you call free choice... I pity you...

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Let's say you are the police chief of a town. You allow criminals to steal, rob, rape and pillage. Citizens come to you and complain: "What are you doing? Why aren't you enforcing law and order?" You say, "Well, I'm just being loving and forgiving." Love does not mean letting the world run wild.

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Let's turn that into a scenario for you:

Let's say you are god. You don't want people to steal, rob, rape, or pillage. You could just tell them not to do it, and they'd obey your rules, but you're too lazy to tell them (or maybe, and this is what I think of the sort of god you seem to believe in, he's a sadist, he wants them to not follow his rules so he can smack them down)... someone steals an apple because you didn't really explain the rules and because he's hungry... What would you do?



I don't want to believe in the god you believe in, preacherman. I think I have better morals than he does, and that should tell you something. The god you believe in is not the god from the bible... it's something you created in your own mind, something that would justify your own little belief-system... you take a quote from the bible here, you take a quote from the bible there... context? Never heard of... You don't read the bible... you interprete it, in your own way, at your own disposal.

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don't want to believe in the god you believe in, preacherman. I think I have better morals than he does, and that should tell you something. The god you believe in is not the god from the bible... it's something you created in your own mind, something that would justify your own little belief-system... you take a quote from the bible here, you take a quote from the bible there... context? Never heard of... You don't read the bible... you interprete it, in your own way, at your own disposal.

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Well, I'm more than willing to listen to your interpretation of it. Please tell me about the God of the Bible as you see Him.

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I don't want to believe in the god you believe in, preacherman. I think I have better morals than he does, and that should tell you something.

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Please explain in what way you think your morals are better than God's.

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No, that's not the question. According to you, didn't he already punish sin (in the garden), thus punishing us for eternity?
And you shouldn't ask me what I would do if I were god... a supreme being surely should know how to solve a problem of that magnitude, no? Or is he just toying? Giving us free choice, but not really... if we do choose for ourselves, he'll smack us down... if we follow his pre-determined choice, we'll be fine... that's what you call free choice... I pity you...

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What would you do if you were God? What is your plan for running the world? God knows what He is doing. But since you say He doesn't exist you must have some idea of how things ought to be. How would you deal with sin? How do you explain the problems of the world? What solutions do you have?

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Please explain in what way you think your morals are better than God's.

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I didn't say that. I think that my morals are better than the morals of the god you believe in, which is quite different. You turn god into a war-mongering, tight-assed, close-minded ******* - that's your god, that's the god you believe in. I have always hoped that if there were a god (I don't know if there is or not, so I'm not going to exlude it), that he'd be a nice one... forgiving... loving... the total opposite of what you believe him to be.

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What would you do if you were God? What is your plan for running the world? God knows what He is doing. But since you say He doesn't exist you must have some idea of how things ought to be. How would you deal with sin? How do you explain the problems of the world? What solutions do you have?

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There you go again... I don't say he doesn't exist. But if you are right about him, I'd say we're screwed big time, and I want to get out of here asap and have absolutely nothing to do with you and him...

I explain the problems in the world by referring to people like you, btw. You take it literally, you're unforgiving, you're close-minded. There's a couple of million of you... and there's a couple of million of unforgiving, close-minded muslims... and voila: there's your problem.
You're an extremist... you're a danger to a civilized world.