Errr... Canadians...

apologies, as i am new here, however i saw this thread and felt i needed to respond. does not anyone find this outrageous?!? that canada was targetted?

from cnn, my shock was initialized:

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Fifteen of 17 suspects appeared in court Tuesday to set dates for their bail hearings, with the first one set for next Monday. The courtroom was stunned when they learned that some of the men had allegedly plotted to storm the Parliament building in Ottawa, seize politicians and behead them if Canada did not pull its troops out of Afghanistan and free Muslim prisoners.

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http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americ....ap/index.html

what?!? are you kidding me? as i caught "The Daily Show" tonight... "Afghanistan was two jihads ago!"
canada spoke out against the war and the u.s. occupation in iraq! canada is the goody-two-shoes of north america, and terrorists are targetting them? i am shocked, again sorry, but i am. this is ridiculous and perhaps naive on my part, but still ridiculous to target canada.

also:

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A Muslim leader who knew the oldest suspect, 43-year-old Qayyum Abdul Jamal, told The Associated Press that his sermons at a local mosque were "filled with hate" against Canada.

Canadian police say there is no evidence the suspect group had ties to Al Qaeda, but describe its members as sympathetic to jihadist ideology. Officials are concerned that many of the 17 suspects were about 20 years old and had been radicalized in a short amount of time.

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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,198319,00.html

"filled with hate" against Canada; are you kidding me? again, for all our bickering here, canada is one of the more socially conscious, whether we agree with their ideologies or not, countries around! frustrating.

oh wait, now this makes sense:

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"There's an allegation apparently that my client personally indicated that he wanted to behead the prime minister of Canada," attorney Gary Batasar said. "It's a very serious allegation. My client has said nothing about that."

Batasar spoke outside the courthouse, where bail hearings for 10 of the 17 suspects were postponed. He said the charges were based on fear-mongering by government officials.

"It appears to me that whether you're in Ottawa or Toronto or Crawford, Texas, or Washington, D.C., what is wanting to be instilled in the public is fear," he said.

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i am hoping that our government will work with the canadian government to resolve this, but when canada is almost attacked, it may be time to rethink, at least, part of our foreign policy.

as far as us bickering about who is "holy than thou", even as a new person, i would only caution us all that we all live in glass houses and we should check ourselves before we start lobbing rocks. but then again, i'm new here and maybe this is how we entertain ourselves here.

as i just heard john stewart quote, and this is paraphrased, "Attack us, but leave Canada ooout!"

Well...to repeat what I said before...in essence...in regards to the squeaky-clean nature of Canada...

we all have our own closet of demons...

Canada has always been a leader in social values...for as long as this country has existed...and even before...eg. a lot of people don't know that the Underground Railroad was spurred by a major Canadian court battle involving the US...in short, a slave had escaped his master and was being hunted on his way north...just before reaching Canada he was caught by the master and his henchmen...a struggle ensued and the master was killed and he escaped again and continued north until he reached Canada...the US demanded his extradiction...he was arrested in Canada and jailed for trial....the judges were under constant stress regarding that the decision could lead to another war...despite this they acquitted the man and let him go...because in Canada what he did was in self-defense...
word got out to the Jim Brown's that in Canada a black man could defend himself even against a white man...and receive a fair impartial trial...
the rest is history.

however...at the same time we were so liberal and social leaders we were in many ways worse...especially in our treatment of the Natives...( of course a lot of that was perpetrated by the churches...in their efforts to convert the so-called heathens )...

a Black Social leader, an escapee from the US...and a world traveller afterwards, in an effort to raise funds for other escapees...wrote several articles explaining his Canada...

he wrote in one article...that...in his travels he had never come across a church where blacks and whites sat apart...both whites and blacks mixed in the pews and shared each others company as in the company of other men...nor had he ever heard of a case where a black man did not receive a fair trial in any Canadian court, the courts were in every way fair and impartial...nor were there any case where a black man could not own a business, run a newspaper, go to school, college....all opportunities were there for them...in fact the colleges abounded with people who came directly from Africa to go to school in Canada...the social policies of Canada were equal in every way...

but...he went on to say...

that racism was prevalent in Canada...and in many ways was more disturbing than in America...because it was a silent prejudice, an unspoken one...it was not approved of nor condoned...for that reason it was hidden from view and festered below the surface...unlike America were it was very evident who was and who was not racist as it was in the open.

we all have our ghosts.

Eg ;)

Relyt:

I think you won that exchange with HT... Which is quite a feat when dealing with him... The proof you won?

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Let's compare the numerous American attrocities to these few minor Canadian ones..

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Translation: You're worse than us so there [sticking out tongue] (but I still acknowledge that we aren't exactly "clean" but I don't want to talk about that....)

What was the point of this thread... There were a couple of points:-

1. To draw Striek out of hiding... <LOL> Sorry again man... :p

2. This is a perfect example of why we are _all_ fighting terrorism... It's global kids... It doesn't matter how benign and friendly you might be to a terrorist - if he doesn't agree with something about you he will try to destroy you and everything you stand for. These were Canadian citizens who decided that, in all it's offensiveness, nastyness, aggressiveness, intolerance and general anti Muslim attitude, [/Sarcasm], that Canada's society should be replace by their brand of social justice, harmony and tolerance of all others [/Sarcasm]. Before you jump up and yell at me that they only wanted Canada's troops out of Afganistan and some of their "brethren" released from prisons stop and think for one minute.... If you gave in to them on that are you truly naive enough to thenk that it ends there?????? :rolleyes:

3. It doesn't get reported much over here because it doesn't suit the agenda of our super liberal media but you claim what the Canadian security forces did was legal... Newsflash kids... The thing that everyone is kicking up a stink about over here, (listening in on international phone calls to/from known terrorist affiliates without a warrant), is quite legal. The Supreme Court of the United States ruled on it several years ago and came down on the side of it being quite constitutional. As for the laws about special surveillance, (I forget the acronym), one of the judges that _wrote_ the damn law has, on numerous occasions, (I've heard him say it live on the radio myself), has unequivocally stated that no-one is breaking this law here either and that what the American security forces are doing is quite legal here in the USA... Just thought you should know that... Since neither US nor Canadian media is going to report it for you... Because it isn't an anti-Bush sentiment.

One last thing... Not personal but I would have expected a little more thoughtfulness from you Dalek. You stated "At least we caught them"... Question... On September 10th 2001 would you have caught them? Rhetorical question old chap... Because we _both_ know the answer... But it's just that kind attitude from Canadians that helped spawn this thread... Look how many times the Brits have terrorist activity, (both successful and unsuccessful), but they don't come off as being morally and intellectually superior in either case. Statements like yours and such things as the pure hatred of all things American by HT show that Canadians are not superior either morally or intellectually... ;)

Hmmmm,

To get back to the original post. I seriously wonder to what extent this was a result of "spying on internet activity"

Ammonium Nitrate is an interesting substance. Its major industrial ussage was and is the manufacture of explosives (amatol and amonal come to mind). However, it is also a good source of nitrogenous fertiliser for commercial agriculture

You do not put it on your garden as it would most likely kill everything; and you can't buy it in garden centres.

Now, I happen to know that in the UK, any large or unusual purchases are reported to the authorities immediately. So that would be:

1. A person without an arable farm.
2. A person without an account with the supplier.
3. A person of foreign descent.
4. A person living in a major city.
5. Purchases out of season.

I would be very surprised if the attempted purchase of 3 tons of ammonium nitrate by people living in Toronto were not reported to the authorities?

Obviously these people are total townies and would not be aware of all this?

Without evidence to the contrary, I see this as probably nothing more than reasonably competent criminal intelligence on behalf of the RCMP.

I would imagine that they were advised by the suppliers of these attempted internet purchases and that they took over from there and set up the sting.

If these guys had used the telephone or FAX the result would have been the same. Just because a computer is used does not make something spying or cybercrime.

:)

Nihil, these people had been monitored for months, since around September or October if I remember the news reports. The purchase of AN was the cinderblock that broke the camel's back.

I can safely say that nobody I have spoken with is the least surprised that we have terrorist cells here. We all knew it could happen. Our subway engineers have respirators the same as yours. What is surprising is the the whole world seems to think we were caught off guard by this. It actually rather insulting to realize that the rest of the world thinks we are too impotent to catch these people (that was not an attack on the 9/11 failure).

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If you gave in to them on that are you truly naive enough to thenk that it ends there?

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We have the same policy regarding negotiations with terrorists as you. Unless they have nukes, we ain't talkin'. We do not negotiate with terrorists.

I agree that probably as much of your spy agencies' "special surveillance" is as legal as ours. But I think that ours is subject to far more oversight than yours. We've had our agencies push too far as well. Just last year a major citizen information database was dismantled due to public outrage (maybe two years ago?). I am saying that the standards for allowing this level of surveillance are lower down south, albeit still legal. We simply have our priorities in a different place.

I don't think anybody has a pure hatred of all things American. It comes across that way sometimes, since we feel we need to distinguish ourselves from you simply because the rest of the world often sees little difference. We feel we need to shout those differences from the treetops to have our voice heard.

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Canadians are not superior either morally or intellectually

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See now this is the basic problem with American foriegn policy. You believe that you are the pinnacle of morality in the world; therefore, nobody can take a higher moral ground than you.

As arrogant as this may be, yes. I do believe that as a whole Canada is morally superior to the United States. For example, I agreed with the Iraq invasion from day one. What I did not agree with is the pretext your government had to create to do so. They lied to thier own citizens, they lied to the world, and they circumvented every international rule of engagement established since the end of the Second World War. I did not agree with most of the world's reservations to the invasion. It should have happened sooner, and was proof positive that the United Nations was becoming obsolete. But despite my reasons for agreeing with the invasion, I find it morally reprehensible that your government felt they needed to lie to the world to justify it.

Intellectually superior, no. Morally superior, yes. As a country we try to lead by example, although we may not be nearly as good as we like to think we are. We do not act unilaterally without the world's support. If there is sufficient a threat against us, the world will stand beside us (and given the size of our armies, perhaps in front of us). We did not stand beside you on Iraq because we knew (or at least suspected) that we were being lied to. Bear in mind that when our help is needed, it is sent without reservation. We were the first people to aid you when the World Trade Center fell (well, ok, I guess geography played a part in that), and Katrina as well. We stand beside our allies when the need is there. But not when they attempt to decieve us into that help. In our hearts, we still look upon ourselves as a nation of peacekeepers, as outmoded as that self image may be.

We would like to believe that where the US provides military leadership, we provide moral leadership, the voice behind you trying to get you to think twice before you act, knowing full well all along that we are guilty of the same sins. But we have realized that, and we make a better attempt to not make the same mistake again IMHO.

Personally, I think Canada is a dream of a nation to be neighbors with. Stable government, high standard of living, nearly identical culture, same language (except for those crazy Frenchies in Quebec), etc, etc. I can stomach a "holier than thou" attitude from a "little brother" :p.

I certainly hope that Canada would have less crime, more effective judicial oversight, protection of civil liberties, less occurances of government abuse of power. Look at their population! Canada has alot of the same problems, but they are nowohere near the scale of the US.

"My government is broken, fix it."
"My people are starving, feed them."
"My countrymen are killing eachother, save us."
"My country is being invaded, fight for me."
"My people/country is poor, give me your money."
"My people have AIDs, cure it."
"You're rich and powerful; I'm not--therefore I hate you."
"You're not doing enough to benefit me, I demand more."

Forget about your own massive country with a matching population with tons of their own problems, I want more, more, MORE! I can't remember the last time I heard those kinds of demands on Canada..heh..not even the UN.

I certainly hope Canada has better handlings of domestic policy--all things considered. They're like the Swiss, they basically have no foreign involvement other than a CARE package every so often by comparison. The tite is running dry, and the isolationist in me is awakening.

woa, I digressed rather quickly. Sorry for the rant, I'm just alittle frustrated with the whole nation thing.

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You stated "At least we caught them"... Question... On September 10th 2001 would you have caught them? Rhetorical question old chap... Because we _both_ know the answer

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Actually TS, your vaunted intelligence community had the wherewithall to prevent this tragedy...months before the actual event, it's because of the petty squabbling that goes on inside the respective intelligence communities that important intel gets overlooked..at least we only have the one intelligence agency to worry about (RCMP/CSIS)..

I know hindsight is 20-20, but if Bill Clinton had of given the order to terminate OBL, I would say the events of 9/11 may not have happened at all..granted it may have been something else instead as these terrorists had it in mind to do something.

What I find amusing is the way the US goes on about it, your right the UK and Europe have been dealing with terrorists a lot longer then the US and for that, they have refined their techniques in dealing with them.So all of a sudden it happens on your doorstep and bam your going to lead the rush to exterminate the world's bad guy's...where the hell were you guy's when this was being done all the time by fanatics like Gaddafi,Arrafat...until it hit you guy's on your home turf, your Government sat on the fence....maybe even fostered (trained OBL) and assisted in some of these organisations (IRA funds through NY and Boston), so maybe you should get off of your high horse.

They say humility is the action of the innocent...try it sometime...I never said anywhere in all of my posts that I don't like Americans or to use your strong words "hate"..I have relatives living in the states..Ex-Pats just like you TS, only they came to America because after the war London wasn't a nice place to live in.

Canada has it's foibles, the only difference I see, is we don't make it a habit to interfere in other peoples countries...I could go on ad nauseam about the US's involvement in other countries politics and see the common threads or the aftermath.

Intellectually...hhmmm in Canada we call this phenomenan the Brain Drain, a lot of the brightest people working in the states are in fact Canadians....Morally.....hhmmm...okay nobody has the market on that one...

Also it's the very reason these people stood out to some extent is because their behaviour is not typically Canadian.....they are not Leaf fans, probably drink weak European beer knockoffs, don't say eh! after every sentence...didn't know anything about Ottawa..oh wait I don't really understand Ottawa as well....but anyways I agree it's global......apologise for the we caught them shot.... ;)

Wow Striek... I really did screw up your goal.... ;)

As a side note and it probably wasn't directed at me personally but no, I do not think that the USA is the pinnacle of morality... The Brits are. :p

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We feel we need to shout those differences from the treetops to have our voice heard.

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I could state that you feel the need to shout because nobody actually listens to Canada unless they are talking about hockey... ;)

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If there is sufficient a threat against us, the world will stand beside us (and given the size of our armies, perhaps in front of us).

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That is a morally bankrupt statement if I ever saw one. What you just said is that you're quite happy to be weak and criticize those who are stronger but if you are threatened you are going to expect the strong to place themselves between you and your enemy... You compound that moral bankruptcy when you also admit:-

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was proof positive that the United Nations was becoming obsolete.

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That is the kind of attitude I find bothering... If you chose to be weak and appeasing fine... But hush up and quit criticizing those who chose to act differently to you. But, sure as hell, don't ask those you criticize to defend you later when you realize you have dug yourselves into a hole. You and your government make your bed... Learn to lie in it... preferably quietly... Because, as you have realized, the UN is worthless so the _only_ people left to help you when you are attacked will be those who currently show the good sense and intestinal fortitude to address an issue _before_ it gets out of hand and that remain strong enough to accomplish that.

PSSSSST... DALEK... I'm a BRIT... Not a Yank... Please stop with the ad hominem attacks... ;-)

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where the hell were you guy's when this was being done all the time by fanatics like Gaddafi

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Ahhh... You forgot the F111's that took off from RAF Upper Heyward and bombed Ghadaffi back when Reagan was Prez...Despite the fact taking out a head of state is not allowed under US law... You forget the US helping, both financially and with training, all the countries around the world that had insurgent/terrorist/rebel problems... No, the US didn't send bodies into the fray until the enemy sent bodies against the USA. That was reasonable... and it reminds me of a T shirt from back during the Falklands war. It was the outline of the Falkland Islands cut out of a Union Jack on a white background. Around it was written "That's what happens when you pull the Lion's tail". That sentiment is quite appropriate in this discussion since you chose to bring it up in this way. The Brits did nothing while the Argies "harmlessly" said they wanted "Las Islas Malvinas" (?) back... There was no point... But when they chose to take action against British sovereign territory we reacted... The USA has show great restraint, (which might have caused 9/11), but now their sovereign territory has been _directly_ attacked they are reacting... Nothing wrong with that.

The "hate" word was directed at HT who freely admits he "hates" much about America and Americans.

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a lot of the brightest people working in the states are in fact Canadians

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Actually, most of them are Asian... <LOL>

[EDIT]

Oh... and before you mention the fact that the F111's also managed to hit the French embassy... I don't see that as a bad thing... In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if it was part of the plan... :P

[/EDIT]

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you're quite happy to be weak and criticize those who are stronger but if you are threatened you are going to expect the strong to place themselves between you and your enemy

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Essentially, yes. We have a popultaion of 30 million here and cannot financially support an army of any effective size, even if we sacrificed our beloved universal health care to do it. As I said, we have proven time and time again that when our help is needed, it is given, and without reservation. We are dying in Afghanistan as we debate this matter, so don't tell me that we are too weak to fight, and die, for what we believe is right in this world. We simply are incapable of fielding a force large enough to effectively combat any terrorist threat against us, militarily. And for that, yes, we are dependent on the world's help. We are not afraid to admit to that, either.

Now as for criticizing, isn't that the whole purpose of this thread? Is it really possible to have a discussion over this matter without some sort of criticism? Geez, what would there be to argue over then, if we were not allowed to criticize. Really, criticize me and my country all you want. We're big boys. We can handle it. It is, after all, not just our differences, but how we resolve them, that makes both our countries great. Yes, I do believe that Americans are a great people. I may not agree with everything they say and do, but they are a great people.

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I could state that you feel the need to shout because nobody actually listens to Canada unless they are talking about hockey.

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Now that's just a personal, below-the-belt attack and has no place in a mature discussion.

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the UN is worthless

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I never said that. Well, maybe in a way, but I certainly didn't mean it in that way. I said it was becoming worthless. That problem is being addressed by its member nations. Unfortunately, that becomes difficult when the general conception is that the world's only superpower will ignore its authority and mandate.

The world's problems will be solved together, not by any one contry acting alone, as the US did (crap I hate to bring THAT war up again) in Iraq. So long as the world fears that the US will act alone, there is little incentive to push these reforms to pass. The US is unique in its responsibility to help these reforms come to exist, and nobody is seeing that happen.

Sorry if we do not have the military prowess to be independent in the world. It's not like we don't contribute where we can. Like I said, our sons and dughters are coming home in bodybags too. We fight for a better future for our children as well. We just have different reasons for fighting.

We lie in the beds we make. Both of us. The world has a low opinion of the United States, and that opinion exists for a reason. We didn't all wake up one day and decide it unilaterally. We watched your actions, we have seen the aftermath, the failed justifications, and we have arrived at our decision. It is American actions and policies that have dictated the course of that decision. Now they too must lie in that bed, and hopefully do something to fix it, as must we all.

[aside] I would love to continue this discussion, but please leave the below-the-belt attacks out of it. We can have a mature argument, even a heated argument, without schoolyard insults[/aside]
[edit]Yep... really screwed it up.[/edit]

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PSSSSST... DALEK... I'm a BRIT... Not a Yank... Please stop with the ad hominem attacks... ;-)

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Pssst back at ya, I did mention that you are an Ex-Pat...you do know what that stands for eh!

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I have relatives living in the states..Ex-Pats just like you TS, only they came to America because after the war London wasn't a nice place to live in

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.... :rolleyes:

What has the Falklands got to do with "terrorism", this is where the US has blindly sold their aggression because of the blinders put on it's people.....The Falklands was an act of War by a soveriegn nation (Argentina) against another(UK)...as far as I know Iraq did not declare war against the US, like wise the US did not declare war on the Iraqui's or Afghan's, the US declared war (arbitrarily) against a doctrine....and it's another typical Johnny come lately.....

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You forget the US helping, both financially and with training, all the countries around the world that had insurgent/terrorist/rebel problems.

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Ahhh yes...let's see oh right Ollie North and company Iran/Contra... geez you guy's (US) sure did a good job on that one....hhmmm what else...oh yeah...Manuel Noriega (Panama) CIA made this monster and the army had to get him out...oh and the Shah of Iran, if anyone really wants to understand why Iranians hate Americans..then read up on this delightful chap....

Oh and as for the Falklands, we wanted to assist, which is more then what the US was prepared to do at the time, in case your sudden US loyalties made you selectively forget that part.....The Iron Lady wanted help from Rayguns, but he stood pat, like most US presidents do, unless it suits them...so get off that one TS...

Also as to being attacked by a foreign entity aka terrorists not from America, what about McVeigh and his militia types that are spread throughout the US, probably some living close to you TS, Michigan has a few of these people running around..

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Oh... and before you mention the fact that the F111's also managed to hit the French embassy... I don't see that as a bad thing... In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if it was part of the plan...

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...Lol...actually it was probably factored in as "Collateral Damage"