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I guess one thing to note is that Europe does has something that is roughly equivalent to the fourth ammendment. It's the European Human Rights act, which has been incorporated into UK law, although the current governement here is trying to backtrack from that position. The European parliment was strongly critical over Echelon (basically the international version of Carnivore), and published a report about how it was being used.
I spent a long time wondering whether or not I should reply to this post. It's a topic I see at every forum, same arguments.
OK, I've talked to a lot of people who live for security and anonymity on the web. They are not crimanals, in fact they are usually pretty ordinary user's yet they have this obsession with using proxie's and so on.
Now, personally I try my best to remain anonymous, I don't do anything on the net that could label me a crimanal but I still try remain anonymous.
So I ask why do we do this, when we have nothing to hide? Morals, pride or do we in fact have something to hide that we are ashamed of? I dont' know, humans crave privacy in the world today where we are being watched wherever we go. Perhaps we see the internet as the only place we can be ourselves with nobody watching what we do, say, our opinions run freely.
Is this is what we are trying to defend?
Ok, I am going to be nice about this one, someone has told me it's a good idea. Do you think the government should know everything you are doing, when you are doing it, and where you are doing it? If you allow, and want them to be able to legally do this, then the next thing that is coming will be for them to tell you everything. Where to eat, where to buy clothes, what job to get, when to leave your house, when to have a child, cameras in your house and where to live. If you put the power into the wrong hands, it will be used in the wrong way. If the day comes where any of this happens, which it will if you continue to give them power, they WILL use it how they want to. Go read 1984, and mabye you will change your mind...
But here is the issue: This is a public place. Everything you are doing online is being seen by someone. I see what you post. That's hardly a private thought then. Individual machines connected to the Internet are private property. You still need a search warranty (to my limited understanding of the law) to be able to legally go through someone's file system.Quote:
Originally posted by Ennis
Perhaps we see the internet as the only place we can be ourselves with nobody watching what we do, say, our opinions run freely.
If you want privacy online, encrypt your packets. That's what encryption is for. Or use an anonymizer, which should, in theory protect you from someone tracking you usage. But even now, WITHOUT government's tracking ever packet, how much privacy do you think you have? I remember watching a show about hacking done by the CBC (Canada's Public Television and Radio Station) and they had interviewed a "security consultant" that apparently never used the internet (he was american I believe). He had challenged friends to find information on him on the internet. They came back with a file folder about an inch thick including official transcripts from colleges, birth certificate and driver's license.
There are numerous thoughts out there. I would prefer to see the Internet in its original form: as a forum to transmit ideas and concepts and to share information. It is now a giant billboard. It isn't. Are we going to let advertisers control the Internet?
Actually, I have read 1984 a few times along with Brave New World. Excellent works of fiction. And they are that. Fiction. And it represents the extremes in politics and life. I firmly believe that somewhere there is a happily medium between full regulation and de-regulation. If you go to either extreme, it is not healthy for a system.Quote:
Originally posted by Anirak
Go read 1984, and mabye(sic) you will change your mind
But that's just my opinion.
I'm afraid the internet is no longer owned by the people but by the advertising companies. A harsh reality we all have to face...Quote:
Originally posted by MsMittens
There are numerous thoughts out there. I would prefer to see the Internet in its original form: as a forum to transmit ideas and concepts and to share information. It is now a giant billboard. It isn't. Are we going to let advertisers control the Internet?
Yes its that the government dosn't care, for the most part what we say or do on the internet. And i don't really know how governments other than the US operate but i think capitolism is capitolism (which im in favor of) and must be kept in check.
look at what they've done with other information gathered. Register to vote and they sell your info, register a car, the sell your info. they call it freedom of information. what if employers could get all the information sent by anyone in their employ. someone might have been up for promotion until they read the info and find out that this person might not be exactly what they want, based on information out of context and forget about their work record. They might find out you post to "security sites" and someone else becomes network manager when they were thinking of you but now you might be a security risk.
Clandestine operation are fine, they have to hide the evidence. Make it public and who knows what can happen.
In reply to Msmittens:
==============================================But here is the issue: This is a public place. Everything you are doing online is being seen by someone. I see what you post. That's hardly a private thought then. Individual machines connected to the Internet are private property. You still need a search warranty (to my limited understanding of the law) to be able to legally go through someone's file system.
If you want privacy online, encrypt your packets. That's what encryption is for. Or use an anonymizer, which should, in theory protect you from someone tracking you usage. But even now, WITHOUT government's tracking ever packet, how much privacy do you think you have? I remember watching a show about hacking done by the CBC (Canada's Public Television and Radio Station) and they had interviewed a "security consultant" that apparently never used the internet (he was american I believe). He had challenged friends to find information on him on the internet. They came back with a file folder about an inch thick including official transcripts from colleges, birth certificate and driver's license.
There are numerous thoughts out there. I would prefer to see the Internet in its original form: as a forum to transmit ideas and concepts and to share information. It is now a giant billboard. It isn't. Are we going to let advertisers control the Internet?
==============================================
I think there is a huge difference between me deciding to post here, as opposed to a goverment opening every email/ letter that I send (and yes I have recently re-read 1984!). And over here, no, the authorities do not need additional legal authorisation to seize a PC if they think "it may help in their investigation". All you need to do to find out details about an individual here is to contact a good firm of private investigators, who can get all that info that you mentioned. Oh, and they can get a lot more by using their 'contacts' to get information from supossedly secure sources (credit card companies, police database etc.)
Quote:
Originally posted by darkes
And over here, no, the authorities do not need additional legal authorisation to seize a PC if they think "it may help in their investigation". All you need to do to find out details about an individual here is to contact a good firm of private investigators, who can get all that info that you mentioned. Oh, and they can get a lot more by using their 'contacts' to get information from supossedly secure sources (credit card companies, police database etc.)
And that shows another issue with the whole concept of "monitoring the Internet". Who's laws should be used for example? US? UK? China? Iraq? What is legal in one country (in this example) the UK, may not be acceptable in another (perhaps Canada and US). I believe in Canada you are required to have a search warrant to take a computer if you suspect it to be part of a crime, e.g., hate crime.
As for your government using their "contacts" to get information that is supposed to be secure, I can see why you distrust your government. I haven't heard or seen that in Canada (at least to my limited knowledge)
This, I suspect, is part of why there are varying degrees and views as to what is acceptable of government involvement and what is not. But maybe that's just me.
Ms mittens, it's plain to see you are a supporter of the anti privacy laws... I found this hard to believe as I seem to remember you saying you are a school teacher and I thought anyone in favour of these laws would have to be an un educated fool.
I also found it strange when I read that you live in Canada. I assumed that you were stuck in a time warp and were living in Nazi Germany...
I hadn't had that much to do with you untill the start of this thread and after your "I think the internet should be monitored" reply I will be adding you to my ignore list.....
:fpissed:
It also seems ironic that you appear to be taking the "high morale road" yet you have an avtar of Mr Eric Cartman from the brilliant show South Park. So you watch South Park yet you talk of censorship and monitoring?
There's a big assumption. I do believe that people have the right to privacy. But I have been trying to point out two things:Quote:
Originally posted by Conf1rm3d_K1ll
Ms mittens, it's plain to see you are a supporter of the anti privacy laws... I found this hard to believe as I seem to remember you saying you are a school teacher and I thought anyone in favour of these laws would have to be an un educated fool.
1. There exists no privacy on the Internet as it stands now. Everything that is sent is done in clear text. Plain and simple. Anyone who believes that they have absolute privacy on the Internet is fooling themselves.
2. People have should have the right to enjoy the Internet without fear of loss of identity or security. Freedom of speech is powerful but should it overwrite any other rights? What about an individual right to security?
There is no fine-cut single answer to this. As an "un educated fool", I try to be aware of as many options as possible before making a decision. Throughout this thread I found some interesting comments and views. And you know what I found the best part? Was that everyone has the right to put forth their opinion, no matter how small, irrelevant or how different it may be from mine.
When I asked what country's laws we should use, it was a rhetorical question. The point was that no one country has the right to impose their laws on the Internet because its an impossibility.
That's a bit harsh I think. I put forth my opinion. You have a different view. Why are you associating my RIGHT to have my opinion as being "Nazistic"? I'm not saying my solution is the only solution. Heck, I haven't even said that the other view was 100% wrong. You seem quite convinced that I do not have the right to post my views. Hrmm..Quote:
I also found it strange when I read that you live in Canada. I assumed that you were stuck in a time warp and were living in Nazi Germany...
Too bad. I guess the possibility of seeing other peoples views is too much to handle. The idea of keeping an open mind. But I guess you view your point of view as the only view and you have the right to that. C'est la vie.Quote:
I hadn't had that much to do with you untill the start of this thread and after your "I think the internet should be monitored" reply I will be adding you to my ignore list.....
I never said censorship. You made an assumption when I suggested the idea of regulation or monitoring at the beginning of this thread. What I had in mind was that there would be someone I could go to if I had a problem if my privacy was compromised. Why should they be mutually exclusive?Quote:
It also seems ironic that you appear to be taking the "high morale road" yet you have an avtar of Mr Eric Cartman from the brilliant show South Park. So you watch South Park yet you talk of censorship and monitoring?