Do you believe in god?

I've been interested by this talk of God etc, as some one with a MSc in biology, I find talk of the origins of life intriguing. However having also seen some of the problems with a number of scientific theories I still can't totally exclude the possibility of God...

That being the case... soem of you might find this website interesting

http://www.bahai.org/article-1-2-0-2.html

I'd also like to point out that the only reason I'm aware of this belief system is because Dr David Kelly was a practioner of this faith. For those of you who don't know Dr Kelly was recently embroiled with the WMD debate and accusations about the British government 'sexing up' the threat Iraq posed. Those of you in the UK will probably be aware that he 'apparently' committed suicide and was given funeral rites recently. Not that this information should sway anyones point of view but I found the faith itself quite... interesting

Z

PS Qwerty-smith - sorry to correct you slightly (and sorry its late) but Zarathustra is the Greek form of Zoroaster, the person who founded Zoroastrianism and strictly speaking it is a dualistic religion not a monotheistic one - it revolves around the struggle between the god of light, Ahura-Mazda, and his opposite number, Ahriman

PPS bballad... I'm being REALLY picky here sorry :).... its actually either kabbala, kabbalah, qabbala or qabbalah... either are valid spellings.

So far I haven't been offended, I've just disagreed (as you said). I'm going to agree to disagree, and I still hold to the last paragraph of my last post...it's something you've got to decide for yourself and nobody can make you believe in God and there isn't any *proof*. And just to say it...I disagree with a lot of stuff that bballad wrote in his last post, but that won't change his opinion. (btw, I'm not done with the Michigan Education post yet, just this one). Oh, and if you haven't read the edits I made to my last post, please do (I think whizkid might not have...but I don't know). Let me know where that room is, Whizkid, bc I'd still like to read what everyone has to say. Thanks

-Keezel

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Originally posted here by DeadAddict
I don't think their is a god I believe it is all Propaganda that people started to get people to change their ways and to control them in some way or another. and if God is so powerful why does he let men and women harm and kill one another. and create weapons that could wipe out the entire planet. I think if he really did exist he would of put a stop to wars before they even started.

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sorry... I've got started on this one now :)

The answer to this is quite simple DeadAddict... if you're a Christian... according to the Bible - God gave humans free will.. something that not even angels were priveleged with (one reason why Satan is supposedly really pissed with humans!)... we're supposed to work this thing out by using our own intellect and emotional strength - if God exists according to Christian theory he can't actually force anyone to do what they don't want to do because he gave all of us free will. The planet was given to us to tend and make our own.. it's ours to do with as we wish... doesn't mean to say we can run wild all over it though. Incidentally by logical extension... if angels don't possess free will, Satan fell from heaven according to God's plan and thus should be pitied rather than reviled because basically he drew a REALLY short straw - evil only exists because God wills it to exist.

Should I become a preacher I wonder... hmm maybe not :D

Sorry for the rant... and before anyone says anything no I'm not a Christian so I hope I've not offended anyone (if you are offended and if Christians are right about things.. well put it this way, I'm going straight to hell by express train so you have that to laugh about) but like some folks around here I keep an open mind about this area

Z

PS.. for those evolutionsists are creationists out there, I would recommend that you pick up a copy of this book

DARWINS BLACK BOX: THE BIOCHEMICAL CHALLENGE TO EVOLUTION
by Authors: Michael Behe
Released: March, 1998
ISBN: 0684834936

some reviews of it here:
http://www.sciencebooknet.com/DARWIN...684834936.html

some of the theories are flawed in my opinion... but it is a fascinating read and may make you think again about some aspects of religion... just to point out though... the author is not a religious nut... he's actually a very well qualified biochemist. I'm not saying this book persuaded me... but it is interesting

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Originally posted here by Zonewalker

PS Qwerty-smith - sorry to correct you slightly (and sorry its late) but Zarathustra is the Greek form of Zoroaster, the person who founded Zoroastrianism and strictly speaking it is a dualistic religion not a monotheistic one - it revolves around the struggle between the god of light, Ahura-Mazda, and his opposite number, Ahriman

PPS bballad... I'm being REALLY picky here sorry :).... its actually either kabbala, kabbalah, qabbala or qabbalah... either are valid spellings.

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i should know better then to call someone out on spelling :)

as for zoroasterism, basicly correct but Iwould say if zorasterism is duleistic so is the judo/christian/muslim faith.

Oh ya I never did answer the origional question....yes I beleive in god I am a devout catholic (after years of searching...perhaps in the end we all go back to our roots.). Luckely for me the pope has ok eveolution/big bang theory/study of science in general, hell if eveolution dosn't endanger the popes faith why should it bother mine. He also accpets that parts of the bible are alloagories not t obe taken literaly....that helps a lot also (not that I would blindly fallow what ever any one says includeing the pope..its just nice to know that the head of one's religion is sane.)

heh bballad ... LOL... like I say I was being REALLY picky about the spelling.... sorry :)

re: zoroasterianism.... yes I would agree with you to an extent.... all of the religions started out monotheistic but to be honest as they have evolved - Christianity at least seems to have become more concerned about avoiding or fighting Satan than loving God (at least in my opinion - as I say I can't call myself a Christian so I can only judge as an outsider). I can't really comment so much on Islam and Judaism but yes I would agree that all of them (at least now - I'm not so sure they did in the past) have at least an element of dualism in them.

Z

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Originally posted by keezel
Every proven theory in science and everything ever found in archaeology supports scripture.
I challenge you to find one proven fact or discovery that "disproves that God exists". Oh, and I guess I'll warn you that I can take anything from the theory of evolution and turn it around to better support the theory of Creation. (this is not bs....I just spend a lot of time with this stuff).

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First off: Evolution and Creationism do not rule eachother out. You can be a creationist, and still believe in evolution (as you should, because the scientific proof for evolution is overwhelming - nobody in their right mind can deny anymore that both humans and animals have evolved through time and are still evolving).

Here is a fact for you:

- All living creatures (with the exception of some virii and a couple of bad-ass bacterial organisms) have exactly the same building blocks: the exact same DNA found in dinosaurs can be found in human beings.
You can disagree with the scientific conclusion that this must mean that all living creatures evolved from one single DNA-molecule (for it's just a theory), but you can't deny the fact.

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Along these lines you also cannot believe in Evolution if you are a "serious science buff". You just stated what I've been saying: if it aint fact it aint science.

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Evolution is a scientific fact, unless you deny everything from DNA-research over carbon-dating to fossile-research...
Here's something I wrote on Darwinism a while ago...

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I look at the little things, like how in a solar eclipse the moon is the exact size and is exactly far away enough from earth (and has the perfect orbit pattern) to exactly block out the sun leaving nothing but the corona to be seen....or how water is the only chemical that when frozen weighs less than when solid, allowing ice to float on top of a body of water so that the animals can safely live underneath the top layer of ice in the winter. Or how incredibly complex the human body is with several complex systems functioning together allowing us to live the way we do. It's a personal thing, and I've decided that I'm not an accident of nature...I'm way too complex for that and the world is just put together too well for it to be an accident.

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And why can't it be an accident? If you have an infinite number of solar systems, you alse will have an infinite number of solar systems with the exact same 'conditions' you just described.

Science and God don't go together... they don't have to. They're not 'interfering' with eachother. If you let them interfere with eachother, then you have a problem: you'll either have to give up your faith, or deny all scientific facts. But again: yo u don't have to. They each are on their own territory, and that's where they should stay. Don't try "prooving" your faith with scientific facts (for you'll fail)... and don't let science disproof your faith (for it can't)...

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And why can't it be an accident?

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I just choose to believe that I'm *not* an accident. I already answered that question....I diddn't say it's impossible but I did say that I choose to believe in the Creation theory instead. I disagree that evolution is a "fact"....but I'm sure you already knew I'd say that. Every scrap of evidence used for evolution can be applied to the theory of Creation as well, so I don't believe that its fact....my personal opinion of course. I also don't believe that there is an infinite number of solar systems, although the number is incredibly large I don't believe it's infinite....we just haven't found the limit yet.

-Keezel

Keezel... allow me to ask you some random questions...
- What about the evolution theory is not a fact? The C-14 method is a fact, fossiles are facts,... what exactly is it that you think is not a fact?
- I'd *love* to see you use the evolution facts applied to creationism... I'd love to see you carbon-date God...heh
- How do you imagine the universe as being limited? Does it just stop somewhere? And what's behind that 'stop'? :/ Note: the universe being unlimited makes just as less sense to me as it being limited :/

I still think you need to realize that evolution is physics, and faith/believe is metaphysics... they *do not* rule eachother out, they can even be compatible... don't mix them up... I really don't understand why you want to 'disprove' evolution... you'll fail... I really don't understand why you want to proof your belief... your belief should be something that *you* believe, that *you* have faith in...

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- What about the evolution theory is not a fact? The C-14 method is a fact, fossiles are facts,... what exactly is it that you think is not a fact?

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It's a fact that C-14 works on things that are or were alive, but it's also a fact that you can't C-14 date a rock (fossils are rocks that have taken the shape of something that was once alive...unless it's a foot-print or something).

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- I'd *love* to see you use the evolution facts applied to creationism... I'd love to see you carbon-date God...heh

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Give me a *fact* and see if I can't. Also, check out some of the theories I posted in "Michigan Education". In it I discussed some things such as the fossil record.

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- How do you imagine the universe as being limited? Does it just stop somewhere? And what's behind that 'stop'? :/ Note: the universe being unlimited makes just as less sense to me as it being limited :/

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Even most evolutionists belive that there is a limit to the universe, and several believe that it is always expanding. Most believe that it's just a matter of time until we find the "edge". As for what's behind the "stop"....I have no idea and don't really want to speculate. I'm sure "heaven" goes through the minds of some...but I see that as a kind of simple, and probably flawed assumption.

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they can even be compatible

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Except that they contradict each other. If you take the Bible literally, then it can't be compatible with anything that contradicts it.

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I really don't understand why you want to 'disprove' evolution... you'll fail...

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This is where I got this thread mixed up in my mind with the other one where we are discussing which is...better I guess. And you're right, with what little I know I have about a snowball's chance in hell at disproving it, but I know some really smart people that can shoot some massive holes in the theory (and then evolutionists just change the theory...lol).

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your belief should be something that *you* believe, that *you* have faith in

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I agree completely...I guess I just got mixed up in both this conv. and the one on "Michigan Education".

I've had just about enough of these convs. for awhile (been going at it for 2 days :( )....so if you have nothing else for me then I'd like to take a break :) . *Perhaps* we should just agree to disagree...

How about a purely emotional response to the question? I'm good at those.

I used to believe in god. I used to believe everything in the Bible. But you know what? A god that I am going to spend eternity with that lets children all over the world starve to death is something I can't believe in anymore. A god that asks Abraham to sacrifice his son to him, just to see if he will is a god I can't believe in anymore. A god that lets good people die young is something I can't believe in anymore. A god that lets the Israelites wander in the desert for 40 years is something I can't believe in anymore. A god that lets a child wander into a minefield and have their legs blown off is something I can't believe in anymore.

Get my drift? I don't WANT to spend eternity with someone/thing that lets this happen. What kind of god can create a world, but not enough food to support the people on it? What kind of god creates a world where children lose their mothers to cancer/war/violence/whatever else you can come up with? What kind of god creates a world where no one can get along? What kind of god, who is all powerful and all mighty, creates a world where war is the norm, and peace is the exception? Are we some kind of game?

Yes, I was handfed the bible/christianity from the time I was born til I was 18. I continued to believe it for a long time. But I just can't anymore. How can a god who lets this happen ask us to have faith in a beautiful eternity? Screw the eternity, how about some beautiful life?