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I would just like to say that I am a Catholic and believe that God does not look at what religion you follow but what life you follow. If you lead your life in a good way, tell me how God can punish you. As long as you respect religion(that does NOT mean worship) and lead a good life, God will love you all the same, regardless of your religion. Jesus said, "I have not come for the righteous but for the sinners."
KoC = kinghts of Columbas a catholic society set up in protest of masions, take much of their docterun from the hopitilars, much like the masions take most of theirs from the templars. interestingly both seem to have been influenced by the hassisians (not the forrunners to the assassins, assassin is a word derived from hassisian.)Quote:
Originally posted here by Zonewalker
Ps can't comment on KoC... don't know anything about them.... are you refering to the Keepers of Chaos???
bballad.. heh just caught up with this... I have to say that you are totally wrong about Erisians,the Principia Discordia and the Illumati...assuming you meant the original Bavarian order of the Illuminati which were founded by Adam Weishaupt in 1776. For your interest the following is a brief synopsis (can find a lot more if you like)
http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jlynch...s/illumin.html
Now about 90% of modern 'Illuminati' cults take their belief structure from the Illuminatus trilogy by Robert Wilson (almost as daft as the origins of Scientology) that I will accept and in that context yes ok I would accept that the Erisians and the Principia discordia predate them (for the time being anyway, there is something in my mind suggesting that the Principia and Illuminatus came out about the same time... unless you've got something you can point me to?). Which is exactly the reason why I said in my earlier post that I was referring to the Bavarian order of the Illuminati - the factual basis for the organisation depicted in the Illuminatus trilogy. So in this context the real Illuminati are older by about 200 years.
Unless of course you are referring to the original worshippers of Eris about 2500 years ago... in which case the situation is a little different...but by your mention of the Principia I assumed you aren't.
As for the Masons I was on about Masons in general... yes there are different rites but these do not generally relate to what the guiding principle of Masonry is. The different branches of Masons do differ on details but the guiding principle is that of fraternity etc . I'm a little confused by your reference to the oriental masons, for example... take a look at the Japanese Masonic Grand Lodge website (about as oriental as you can get)
http://www.japan-freemasons.org/
to quote them
Unless... you're referring to something like the OTO?? In which case - they aren't masonsQuote:
We are the Masons. We believe in helping others. We believe there is more to life than pleasure and money. We respect the opinions of others. And we all want to grow and develop as human beings. Masons are moral, honest men who work together to improve themselves and their communities. Our motto is "friendship, morality, and brotherly love."
Mmm still can't agree with you about the assassins... take a look at this and you'll understand why ;
http://www.iis.ac.uk/learning/life_l...in_legends.htm
yes I know assassin is a word derived from hassassin thats why I said they were forerunners of assassins - read the above .
KoC interesting, never heard of them - have to look into them - got any links ??
Z
PS just to clarify for folks like Radical (if I understood your point correctly)... can I make it quite clear I am not saying any of the aforementioned beliefs are better than the other or that I necessarily even follow any of them myself. I'm also not trying to bring a divide between me and bballad but I find his views interesting and I'm trying to correct what I feel are mistaken facts on his part. I don't doubt that bballad feels some of my informaion is incorrect... but hopefully we can steer through the miasma :)
[EDIT] ahh ok stand corrected Principia discordia was published (1968) before the Illuminatus trilogy (1975)... didn't come out before the original order of Illuminati though :)
Just chek with your local catholics on the koc im sure they have a chapter. as for masons, grand lodge of the orient, egyption rite, the group the that OTO sprang from. On assasins we are both talking about the same group, their beleifes I beleive are as I stated.
correct on the origional illuminate of bevaria comeing before the prinicipalia, unless you count that group in berkly as the originals. The question I would ask is are we sure that the group in bevaria where the origionals? Its up in the air whos facts are right, all things considered. We are dealing with secrate societies and a lot of what is published on them is miss information, unfortuinatly every source I have found eather dosn't deal with them (regular history books), are erisian controlled (every thing is under control, other books that are part of operation **** up) or masonicly controlled (history of secratsocieties, verious books exposeing masonic secrates.). The truth is baried under many layers of crap.
What I think we do know. hassissan's or the Isma‘ilis sect of islam, (same thing) influanced the templares who then influenced OTO, Masions, Illumiaties. ECT.
I didn’t read all the posts because they were getting off track and redundant so I apologize if this line of thought has been covered, so back (belated) to focusing on the original question:
Facing a critical situation, such as a life threatening event; the mind will most likely grasp and seek all possibilities. If an atheist suddenly found himself falling to his death all those images of god that were wired into his brain from school and the media, would suddenly surface and make themselves known as a possible way out. Perhaps something like "Jesus God help me now!" would issue forth just before impact and eternal darkness (or a blazing accent into heaven). In fact I just yelled "Jesus Christ" because my firewall just went down, it's a reflex based on all the data accumulated over my time on earth. In fact if the atheist was thrown off the headquarters of some Taliban building he would probably yell "Allah save me and my children and destroy my enemies!" Most likely all of the other Taliban members would then proceed to praise Allah otherwise they would be persecuted for not having faith. For you see they have no separation of church and state and the atheist being thrown from the building might have been done so because he was guilty of not following the word of god.
The person could have been prepared for the fall. In that case he may go unwillingly in silence, but most if not all will cry out for help and hope. A primal need for survival will kick in and all possibilities will be explored while the brain and hormones kick into super drive.
Then you believe that all atheists are agnostic? By saying that you don't believe in someone that doesn't believe in something that you do believe in, means that they believe in the same things as you. Therefore, all your time spent in worship is for nothing because everyone believes the same thing. Also, does that mean that you don't believe in Jews, because they don't believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God? Do you not believe in Muslims because they don't worship Yahweh, they worship Allah?Quote:
.even though I truly do not believe in atheists,
That depends on the society. Some do believe in a higher power and some do not.Quote:
The reincarnation "theory" recognises a higher power.
But it is that exact same anger that causes all the wars. You just said that you get angry over peoples belief. And because you are angry, you wish their belief would change and would like to find a way to enforce that on people. Now maybe not you, but someone that was more aggressive would start a fight out of that anger, and it may end up as a war, which would end up being a religious war. Also, do you believe the war in Iraq was a war over territory or over a regime or over religion? The muslims feel it was about religion. How many other wars were started because of territory and then got blamed on religion later?Quote:
it makes me mad that people can be so stupid to support something that creates so much bloodshed
Thats when you know that you have found a good debate :D One that can go on forever and never have a true winner :) And as long as no one gets to upset or angry, then the debate should continue.Quote:
Yes, I'll be the first to admit I'm just as guilty as the next guy, but come on this ridiculous, argueing over who's philosophy is the best? Do you really think that one sides going to come out over the other?
Quick tip: There won't.
I love seeing things like this, because it really makes me wonder about all the rumors going around about society like the masons and things like that. I am a member of KofC, along with a couple other people on this forum. The organization was formed to help families in a time of need. It had nothing to do with the masons.Quote:
KoC = kinghts of Columbas a catholic society set up in protest of masions, take much of their docterun from the hopitilars, much like the masions take most of theirs from the templars. interestingly both seem to have been influenced by the hassisians (not the forrunners to the assassins, assassin is a word derived from hassisian.)
Which brings me to another point. The masons (or Free Masons as the were originally called) have been around many many many years longer then the templars. The original Free Masons were a jewish organization of.. you guessed it.. Masons. They were Free because they had the ability to move between areas without problem because the skills of the mason were highly valuable. The templars got involved with the masons (and later the Illuminati did also) because of the freedom of movement that the masons had.
zonewalker> http://www.kofc.org/index_eng.cfm They are primarily in the USA (hence the name Columbus)
Now for those of you that are asking for proof of god, what kind of proof are you looking for? And if you say scientific proof, search the internet for the latest findings on the "big bang theory." First note it says "theory." Second you will see that they are beginning to see that it may have been wrong. Also, If you read Genesis closely (the first book) you will see the story of Cain and Able. You will also see that after Cain kills able, he runs off and goes to.... A CITY!!!!! Now how could there be a city? The story of creation in the bible is NOT the story of how man and woman first came to life. It is a story of how the people of God first came into life. As for the "7 days" to create the world..well, consider it this way. If there is no sun or moon, then how long is a day? It never says exactly HOW God created the sun. Could it be possible that God forced massive amounts of matter into a ball and started explosions which created the sun? If the big bang theory were completely true, why would the matter have grouped like that? Before I change my beliefs, I would like to see scientific evidence that proves that God does not exist.
WOW soule ma, seriously mis informed on the masions. Nowing a few rather well I can tell you that they hapily trace themselfs back to the templars. As for the KOC, IF it is not an anti mason organization, it is a rather interesting cunicidence that the pope at the time of their founding in the US (or renameing as they where the Red Knights first, useing the symbols of the knights of malta who where the hospitilars) released a document declareing masons satinists and any catholic who joind the masons excomunicated from the church.
So in the US you have a new faternal order with the same public goals as the masons sprining up at the same time the masons are denounced as the worlds gratest evil by the head of the church, Wow that fits together nicely, but the KoC isn't an antimason group.
Oh and soul they are still called freem masons, mason is jsut a nice shortining of the name, they do not date back to the jewish masons (neat fairy tale), and if you look at a lot of their modern righting they where a very antismetic group (cleand up in the last 50 years or so.)
As for proof on god, the burden of proof falls on you, you must prove a positive not a negitive.
Proving that god does not exist is impossible. I don't see how your can prove an intangible concept doesn't exist. I can say "Jesus came in spirit and spoke to me last night in my dream"
Proving that the Holy Spirit didn't come is quite difficult. Possibly more difficult to prove than proving he did come. Because chances are while the lord was here, he gave me some snippit of information.
Of course I could say: in a thousand million years, if the apocolypse doesn't come that maybe god was a sham, but then again there is no indication of when and if it will ever come and if it does, will it be bearing god's wrath and fury or just be an unfortunate accident. Like a rogue comet obliterating all life and any concept of human beings and their many gods. Of which only one is the true lord. Unfortunately every flavor of religion has their own. So even if someone does believe in the lord all mighty, bearer of eventual death and destruction. Which one is it? And why do some humans as children (images of the one true god) choose to worship many (false idols of the one true god) different deities?
How do you prove the Hindu god that watches over children doesn't exist? Possibly through terror and persecution? But then that is not proving anything, just modifying behavior and consuming or eliminating another train of thought into the community of the persecutors.
http://www.gl-mi.org/Interesting-Fac...reemasonry.pdf hummm, nothing about the templars.
http://www.grandlodgemi.org/question...20TO%20HISTORY
Still nothing about templars....Quote:
Who discovered, designed or invented Masonry?
No one man, any more than any one man discovered, designed or invented democracy, or philosophy, or science, or any one government. Freemasonry is the result of growth. Many Masons had a part in it; it has taken to itself teachings from many religions, philosophies, systems of knowledge, symbols.
The most generally accepted orthodox belief as to those who "began" Freemasonry is that the Craft is a descendant of Operative Masons. These Operatives inherited from unknown beginnings, of which there may have been several and were probably many, practices and some form of ritual. Speculative Masonry, reaching back through Operative Masonry, touches hands with those who followed unknown religions in which, however, many of the Speculative principles must have been taught by the use of symbols as old as mankind and therefore universal, and not the product of any one people or time.
As a matter of fact, the templars were from the 1100's to 1300's... yet. http://www.thelodgeroom.com/york.html
Although he does say that the first document came out in 1390. The Knights Templar degrees are only if you follow the York rites. If you look at... http://www.thelodgeroom.com/ktemplar.htmlQuote:
Here it is believed by some that Freemasonry truly began with King Athelstane (925 - 940 AD) who took the
Or what about this page that quotes from "TheEncyclopedia of Freemasonry" http://www.co-masonry.org/language/e...ry/default.aspQuote:
While many authors have tried to paint a connection between the demise of the Templars and the birth of Freemasonry, Masonic Templarism makes no such claim of continuation. It does however pay homage to the knightly and Christian virtues possessed by the original to which we imitate.
My point talking about the Jewish Free Masons is complete fact. That is not the same as the secret society that we have now, but that is what the original masons were. Then, durring the Roman Empire, masons were allowed to move freely. I am not saying that they practiced the saem beliefs/rituals/etc that the current Free Masons practice. I am saying that it is from that time and freedom of movement that Free Masons took their name.Quote:
origin and source whence first sprang the institution of Freemasonry, such as we now have it
I don't know about the validity of this site because I have no idea who the author is but....http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache...hl=en&ie=UTF-8
Hummm so that would mean that they didn't start till 400 years after the Templars??? As I said, just because the oldest known writing was right after the templars, that doesn't mean that the organization wasn't from before that time, or way after that time.Quote:
Many legendary theories exist concerning the origin of freemasonry, but it is generally believed that it evolved from the medieval guilds of the stonemasons. Its present organizational form began on June 24, 1717, when a grand lodge was formed in London.
I don't remember any of the links that I have which show that the majority of the symbols in masonry are also in kabbalah, or the masons that claimed that it was a jewish organization.
My point about proof is that you wish me to prove that there is a God to make you believe. I want you to prove that there is not a God to make me disbelieve.
Is it a coincidence that Hindu has a three part god (can't be arsed to look up the names right now)? So does Christianity. So do a few other religions.Quote:
How do you prove the Hindu god that watches over children doesn't exist?
Sorry I've been away from this for a while - personal events in real life to try and sort out amongst the usual dross of living
just to answer a few folks in chronological post order...
Bballad - wouldn't personally count the group in Berkley as the founding group of the Illuminati, it's fairly well accepted that Weishaupt founded the Illuminati.... however I would accept that the Berkley order were one of the first 'daughter' groups with authority direct from Weishaupt.
Having said that I'd agree the truth is buried under many layers of crap - so who knows
Souleman... I agree that some 'reincarnation' cultures recognise a higher power whilst some do not. Cheers for the link, I'll look into the KofC, the fact they are mainly US based explains why I've not heard of them but it is good to expand ones frame of reference.
Soule and bballad... ok, the masons...according to Mackey, Albert G., M.D. and Charles T. McClenachen. 1894. An Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry. Philadelphia: L. H. Everts and Co
There is some evidence in Freemason legend to suggest that the organisation goes back to the time of King Solomans temple (in the Bible) but as far as I know there is no 'hard' archaelogical evidence or literature from primary sources to support this.Quote:
There is written evidence of the Masons dating back to the fourteenth century. In the Middle Ages stonemasons and architects were an elite class who could travel between countries, unlike serfs who had restrictions on their travel. They called themselves "free" because of this. The Masons were responsible for building beautiful structures across Europe, especially the cathedrals. Until the sixteenth century, Masons were simply craftsmen learning the operative art of masonry in guilds and unions
The first Grand Lodge in the UK was founded in 1717, and it is here that most Freemasons take the founding of modern Freemasonry from. The reason I know this is because I know a couple of masons and whilst they are not exactly open about a lot of things they are reasonably willing to discuss bits of their history and foundation. They backed up most of the above - but you'll just have to take my word for that - or not as the case may be :)
The Templar link is better documented but the exact details are a little shrouded in mystery because in 1307 King Philippe IV of France ordered their arrest and raid of Templar assets. Much confusion arose, accusations of heresy abounded until the Templars were eventually ordered to disband by a Papal Apostolic Decree on 22 March, 1312. Many knights were hunted down, tortured and killed and many of their possessions and records were either confiscated or similarly destroyed. The past is a many splintered thing.
Anyway this is getting off the point a little... sorry
As for proving if God exists or not.... as RoadClosed says, proving an intangible concept or even an intangible reality is difficult (I wouldn't say impossible). For example I can no more prove or disprove the existence of God than I can prove or disprove the existence of superstrings or the other 22 dimensions that physicists say exist. I think someone said (either in this thread or the 'do you beleiev in god' thread) ultimately it comes down to faith. Whether you choose to have faith or not is entirely a personal decision - and the decision you make may not be the right one, it's just something you have to live with.
Z
PS... this is going to be flippant and may offend some but I couldn't help but roll on the floor killing myself laughing at the statement by RoadClosed
ahh god I think I'm gonna burn in hell :DQuote:
Proving that the Holy Spirit didn't come is quite difficult
[edit]
Soule
never a truer word spoken :thumbsup:Quote:
Thats when you know that you have found a good debate One that can go on forever and never have a true winner And as long as no one gets to upset or angry, then the debate should continue.
Soule we must have crossed posts... the 'link' with Templars - I should have mentioned it being in connection with the York rite and that is my only understanding of a link with the Templars, so I would entirely agree with your sumation of the Templar 'link'
the issue does get muddied because of the unofficial continuation of the Templars as an order after the dissolution. It's too long for me to go into right now but I think that this is the origin of any links with the Masons - suspect that the unofficial Templar order took shelter with Masons and the York rite developed.
Clear as mud?? you bet
Z