Freewill vs Pre-destination

My shy little Papillion hides out of site while the bigger dog munches a bone. Then when distracted by fine smelling beef cooking in the kitchen the Papillion sneaks into postion, almost deceitful intentions to "steal" the bone right under the nose of the owner. She has already at eher bone you see and the prize is too tempting. She risks retributon over her selfish need for a delicious bone.

Pretty "human like?" Animals even shun outcasts who don't perform well or are not liked in the herd, pack or group of monkeys. They somewhat show human attributes when analyzed and is the monkey of today smarter than 1000 years ago?

There is some truth that the Universe is choas from order depending on your take on reality and cosmology. But be careful that is evidence of a big bang ya know. ;)

Negative, don't leave out south America from the west. It's a continent that makes our christianity look tame. :p And don't get me started on voodoo in the caribean.

Road > By "Western" countries I meant ummm... how shall I say this... 1st world-countries?

On Omnipotent beings and free will - yes, it's possible to have both. Suppose he (insert your God here, this isn't religious in particular) put you here because he knows you well enough to know what choices you'll make? You still have free will to screw up and make the different choice, but the Omnipotent being knew ya would anyways...

Is anticipating your opponent's move in a chess match, or a poker game really predestination? I think not. Life's the same way, just a bit higher stakes.

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Is anticipating your opponent's move in a chess match, or a poker game really predestination?

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No, but anticipation is not knowing, it's an educated guess. Take it a step further, and if you are in God's position of power, you can shape your world's plan so that those who by free will choose the righteous path are destined to move on to greater things. Of course, the opposing response to that is "But that's not fair!"....But take it as you will.

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Lets not let our differences in belief make us not like each other.... It ain't worth it.... Okay?

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Tig, you shouldn't worry about that. I'll make you defend your claims in a debate, but I will always do so respectfully. I'm not so much intent on changing your belief as I am analyzing it. I analyze and pick apart everything, question everything, counterpoint everything, which is what has led me to the beliefs I hold to now. I try to come at everything frome every direction until I know that I'm standing on the right ground. But note I haven't been in one single flame war during my whole time here at AO, so don't worry about that. I will always respect your beliefs no matter how different they are. Doesn't mean I won't poke at them when they're thrown out there into the field though...I'm rather accustomed to being around people of opposing beliefs. I question those beliefs openly and often, but I respect them while doing so. In fact, I have a couple of agnostic/atheist friends that I rather adore as people. And yes, I too could go for weeks without budging, I understand what you're saying.

Interesting though, some of the points that serve as disproof to you actually serve as proof for me. For instance, the presence of an evil among the human race that doesn't exist among lesser species reinforces to me the belief that there is also a greater evil out there...And my friend, if you ever study Satanism, it's very enlightening. Under the surface, that evil is afraid of one particular God for some reason...The presence and nature of evil that I've seen firsthand is one of the greatest proofs of that "fourth dimension" that I've yet encountered. I wonder if some people are evil beyond what would otherwise be impossible for a human being, unassisted.

Neg, it's a good point, but I put no weight in statistics. In fact, I also see people getting consistently stupider as we "advance". People in our industry especially should see that. "Don't teach me anything, just make it convenient." Yeah, there's evolution for ya. I think we're going back to monkeys. ;) I say that half-jokingly of course.

I also think it's interesting saying that men create God out of their pride. The concept of God humbles me. I would think that if we wanted to see our grand race as superior, we would be thinking of ourselves as gods and not looking to or creating a higher power. That seems to go against arrogance, not support it.

Just some thoughts...

My personal belief, however, is that you can only follow logic so far. Let's face it, none of your beliefs are logical. This entire world we know just came from one big explosion? You find that easy to swallow? There's a supreme being above everyone, unseen? Is that easy to accept? We've been in a constant transformation process over centuries of time, meaning once we were almost an entirely different creature? That easy to buy into? The universe is nothing but chaos? Is that easily acceptable?

My point is that all our beliefs are way out there. The aethist's is just as outlandish as the creationist's, just in a different direction. Just goes to show logic alone can only take you so far. Whatever you belief caused us being here, it's a wild concept. So saying each other's "just doesn't make sense" borderlines on arrogant, that's just silly. I realize mine's far-fetched, but I realize yours is too...and yours....and yours...

Perhaps that's one point we can all be in consensus on? The world is strange place.

Freewill vis Predestination.

I lived with a woman for five years who believed she was clairvoint. She and her family were members of the Spiritualist Church. In the time i lived with her she continualy refered to freewill. It always struck me as the get out of anything answere. I do however believe that i was pe-destined to live a hell on earth for those five years. :(

But then i exorcised my freewill, woo hoo i'm a free man.

Angelic:

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For instance, the presence of an evil among the human race that doesn't exist among lesser species reinforces to me the belief that there is also a greater evil out there...

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Ever watched the well fed cat play with the mouse? You can hear the mouse saying "ok, I quit... give it up, you ain't hungry... I'm just making a living...."

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And my friend, if you ever study Satanism, it's very enlightening.

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Ok.... Here's one of my "biggies".... God is omnipotent, right? Satan was an archangel, right? Archangels aren't anywhere near as powerful as an omnipotent being, right? So why doesn't god just kick his ass and have done with it? It's either a FUD issue or god isn't omnipotent or, worse yet, god is like the cat playing with his mice..... he _likes_ to screw with them.... let's not mention dropping in the odd hurricane or volcano to really mess with their minds.... It doesn't make sense for a _benevolent_ supreme being to be simply messing with his creations like toys without any emotions.... Why, and I am asking that question, would he/she/it do that?

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This entire world we know just came from one big explosion? You find that easy to swallow?

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Not only easy to swallow, very easy.... Why? Because we are probably wrong... But that's ok, we're stupid too.... I can accept that. Why can't you?

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The universe is nothing but chaos

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I _think_ you misunderstand "chaos" as I said in my previous post. Chaos isn't the dictionary definition in the way we use it in normal language. Chaos is the state that is opposite to predestination. It's a state where things occur that lead to other things and so on, and on and on.... It's not anarchy every second, yet it is in a way. Chaos is the series of events that, taken individually, would lead nowhere but over time and with sufficient "choices", actions and reactions within the entirity leads the universe down a path. If any single thing changes in that it affects the others somewhere down the line. Predestination states that _all_ things will happen _this_ way.. period, end of discussion. But what happens if it doesn't? Ah.... We have chaos...... Which is more logical? If predestination _ever_ fails then chaos _is_ the result. But predestination would have recognized that and allowed for it's final downfall.... So predestination is only chaos "ordered" for a period of time. Hence my statement in my earlier post that order is an illusion by the fact that chaos isn't immediate, it takes time....

Are you getting this? I'm not entirely sure I am.... ;)

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Ever watched the well fed cat play with the mouse?

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Soooo...Who's the fat cat? :confused:

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Satan was an archangel, right? Archangels aren't anywhere near as powerful as an omnipotent being, right? So why doesn't god just kick his ass and have done with it? It's either a FUD issue or god isn't omnipotent or, worse yet, god is like the cat playing with his mice..... he _likes_ to screw with them.... let's not mention dropping in the odd hurricane or volcano to really mess with their minds.... It doesn't make sense for a _benevolent_ supreme being to be simply messing with his creations like toys without any emotions...

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I have no clue.

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But that's ok, we're stupid too.... I can accept that. Why can't you?

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Ah...Actually, I'm probably stupider than you are...

You bring up great questions, to which I can only say I don't know, and rely on faith from that point forward. It's not a blind faith though. I've walked with logic up until the point I best can, and once I've reached that abyss that logic cannot cross, faith has taken me the rest of the way.

For instance, look at where you don't use logic -- You're closest friends are hopefully the people you know you can trust totally. Have you explored every nook, cranny, aspect, and factor of their lives to conclude this? No, you've learned enough to know that you can have faith in the them for the rest. Logically, for all you know they could be horrible people when hidden by the unseen (it's entirely, logically possible), but you know them well enough to trust that they're not. You don't have to launch an investigation into every aspect of them.

So, for me, the same is true here. My own life has proved that there is at least a God, and that the path I'm following is leading toward Him...now as far as the other questions, I don't know, but I know enough to trust that somehow, it fits together in a way beyond my understanding.

It's the fine line between blind faith and justified trust, and it's what allows me to honestly say "I don't know" instead of pretending I have all the answers...

Angelic: I do have faith.... absolute faith.... faith in our species stupidity.... I just know the answers are there because where my logic fails me it also tells me that I am inadequate, not that logic failed. Logic can't fail, or it isn't logic any more. Learn to trust it not to discard it because _you_, (and I), lack the information required to make the truths work.

wow, thank you so much guys for the responses. each one of them is emotive and thought provoking, i could not have hoped for better answers. thank you ......
Angelic : Dr. Hugh Ross/David Cho?!

Tiger Shark, as always, thank you, to each and everyone, who responded, I say thank you. My question is not even christian based, but thanks for the angle, it is religiously based though. I have read Tuesday Lobsang Rampa's Beyond the Tenth. Tis Why I was wondering. How can I see the future if it is not there already?! happening in the now. sometimes i come across an event in my life and go, damn, i know i was here before, like deja vu, but wow .... hey i aint no loon ............

like so, (even though i am a born again angelic) ................

Do i need a shrink?! haha, probably, anyone ?!

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Originally posted here by Tiger Shark
Angelic: I do have faith.... absolute faith.... faith in our species stupidity.... I just know the answers are there because where my logic fails me it also tells me that I am inadequate, not that logic failed. Logic can't fail, or it isn't logic any more. Learn to trust it not to discard it because _you_, (and I), lack the information required to make the truths work.

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Actually Logic can fail, even Dr. Spock had to admit to Capt Kirk that Logic has its limits and that at a point emotion (the gut feeling) must take over. I believe they were each others exact and equal opposites?!

I do also believe that depending on whos views and opinions, logic can make 1+1 = 2 logically and make 1+1 =2 from a different, diamettrically opposed point of view, its exact equal and opposite, hence balance..... is this also not what the Architect (matrix) aludes to in his soliquy, Ergo etc etc ?!