Photos that will never make the news.

All this talk about why someone joins or doesn't join the service brings to mind (yet another in the endless list) a sea story I'd like to share - My introduction to Robert Heinlein.

We were all sitting around the shop one evening after chow and the typical BS session subject turned to 'why we joined the service.' To be honest, I was the one who started asking - we were mid-war and under constant late night GQ's from inbound missile fire (go figure - Saddam loved shooting at the carriers even though he could never actually hit them.) Anyway, one wizened Petty Officer First Class (by the name of Jeff Jenkins (and don't ever call him Petty Officer Jenkins either or he'd get pissed) handed me a copy of Heinlein's "Starship Troopers." He said, "Read this and you'll understand exactly why. You might even learn a thing or two about yourself in the process." For those of you who've only seen the movie(s), you've missed out horribly - they were edited way down to the point where they barely resemble the book on which they're based. Below I'll quote a bit which might explain further exactly why someone joins the service, and after a second quote which might explain further why we are so willing to make war:

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"No guessing, please; this is exact science. And your guess is wrong. The ruling nobles of many another system were a small group fully aware of their grave power. Furthermore, our franchised citizens are not everywhere a small faction; you know or should know that the percentage of citizens among adults ranges from over eighty per cent on Iskander to less than three per cent in some Terran nations -- yet government is much the same everywhere. Nor are the voters picked men; they bring no special wisdom, talent, or training to their soverign tasks. So what difference is there between our voters and wielders of franchise in the past? We have had enough guesses; I'll state the obvious: Under our system every voter and officeholder is a man who has demonstrated through voulentary and difficult service that he places the welfare of the group ahead of personal advantage."

"And that is the one practical difference."

"He may fail in wisdom, he may lapse in civic virtue. But his average performance is enormously better than that of any other class rulers in history."

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And 2 on why we make war:

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But on the last day he seemed to be trying to find out what we had learned. One girl told him bluntly: "My mother says that violence never settles anything."

"So?" Mr. Dubois looked at her bleakly. "I'm sure the city fathers of Carthage would be glad to know that. Why doesn't your mother tell them so? Or why don't you?"

They had tangled before -- since you couldn't flunk the course, it wasn't necessary to keep Mr. Dubois buttered up. She said shrilly, "You're making fun of me! Everybody knows that Carthage was destroyed!"

"You seem to be unaware of it," he said grimly. "Since you do know it, wouldn't you say that volence had settled their destinies pretty thoroughly? However, I was not making fun of you personally; I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea -- a practice I shall always follow. Anyone who clings to the historically untrue -- and thoroughly immoral -- doctrine that 'violence never settles anything' I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms."

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Well, why should I fight? Wasn't it preposterous to expose my tender skin to the violence of unfriendly strangers? Especially as the pay at any rank was barely spending money, the hours terrible, and the working conditions worse? When I could be sitting at home while such matters were handled by thick-skulled characters who enjoyed such games? Particularly when the strangers against whom I fought never had done anything to me personally until I showed up and started kicking over their tea wagon -- what sort of nonsense is this?

Fight because I'm an M.I.? Brother, you're drooling like Dr. Pavlov's dogs. Cut it out and start thinking.

Major Reid's victim summed up the unreleased prisoners: survivors of two divisions of British paratroopers, some thousands of civilians, captured mostly in Japan, the Phillipines, and Russia and sentenced for "political" crimes.

"Besides that, there were many other military prisoners," Major Reid's victim went on, "captured before the war -- there were rumors that some had been captured in an earlier war and never released. The total of unreleased prisoners was never known. The best estimates place the number around sixty-five thousand."

"Why the 'best'?"

"Uh, that's the estimate in the textbook, sir."

"Please be precise in your language. Was the number greater or less than one hundred thousand?"

"Probably sir. Almost certainly."

"Utterly certain -- because more than that eventually escaped, found their ways home, were tallied by name. I see you did not read your lesson carefully. Mr. Rico!"

Now I am the victim. "Yes, sir."

"Are a thousand unreleased prisoners sufficient reason to start or resume a war? Bear in mind that millions of innocent people may die, almost certainly will die, if war is started or resumed."

I didn't hesitate. "Yes, sir! More than enough reason."

"'More than enough.' Very well, is one prisoner, unreleased by the enemy, enough reason to start or resume a war?"

I hesitated. I knew the M.I. answer -- but I didn't think that was the one he wanted. He said sharply, "Come, come, Mister! We have an upper limit of one thousand; I invited you to consider a lower limit of one. But you can't pay a promissory note which reads 'somewhere between one and one thousand pounds' -- and starting a war is much more serious than paying a trifle of money. Wouldn't it be criminal to endanger a country -- two countries in fact -- to save one man? Especially as he may not deserve it? Or may die in the meantime? Thousands of people get killed every day in accidents...so why hesitate over one man? Answer! Answer yes, or answer no -- you're holding up the class."

He got my goat. I gave him the cap trooper's answer. "Yes, sir!"

"'Yes' what?"

"It doesn't matter whether it's a thousand -- or just one, sir. You fight."

"Aha! The number of prisoners is irrelevant. Good. Now prove your answer."

I was stuck. I knew it was the right answer. But I didn't know why. He kept hounding me. "Speak up, Mr. Rico. This is an exact science. You have made a mathematical statement; you must give proof. Someone may claim that you have asserted, by analogy, that one potato is worth the same price, no more, no less, as one thousand potatoes. No?"

"No, sir!"

"Why not? Prove it."

"Men are not potatoes."

"Good, good, Mr. Rico! I think we have strained your tired brain enough for one day. Bring to class tomorrow a written proof, in symbolic logic, of your answer to my original question. I'll give you a hint. See reference seven in today's chapter. Mr. Salomon! How did the present organization evolve out of the Disorders? And what is its moral justification?"

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Relevent to day as much as when it was written:

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"Tommy"
Rudyard Kipling

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

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Wow, I helped destroy the culture of the iraq's ~Erok

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Saddam drained 500,000 peoples culture and way of life, just to name one small group.:rolleyes:

"The Marsh Inhabitants -- often referred to as Marsh Arabs or “Ma’dan” -- are an indigenous group of approximately 500,000 people who have inhabited Iraq’s southern marshlands for thousands of years. Their livelihood, culture, and way of life have always depended on the wetland ecosystem of Mesopotamia, situated between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Even as late as the 1970s the region was home to a recognizable and sustainable culture based on the gifts of the marshes -- including slowly-flowing shallow water, extensive beds of towering reeds, and abundant fish, game, and migratory birds."
http://www.carnegiecouncil.org/viewM...D/8/prmID/4458

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Originally posted here by debwalin I support the soldier 100%. I don't support the cause. It's simple.

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If I recall correctly you voted for Kerry who voted against the troops supplemental package, how is that supporting 100%?

I am not answering for debwalin but for me there is a big differance between supporting a politician or a political party and supporting your armed forces.

!mitationRust: That is a dark road to go down. How is vote for a group that sends our troops to war with inadequate armor and ammunition supporting the troops?

There is a contrast between adapting to the battlefield and voting no on a supplemental package.
Which in return Democrats were dealt a major drubbing. ;)

How is a group who severely cut the military budget for decades supporting troops?

How are the two parties rectifying the situation and making sure proper equipment is necessary? Their aren't because they fight like a bunch of old bitties with Ted Kennedy leading the crazy fringe (he's been up there almost 50 years!). The US Military is highly deployable and "supposed" to be able to carry on 2 major wars at the same time. And as they moved from stationary to highly deployable in the 90s perhaps Clinton missed something? Or maybe they are ready and someone was a little slow on the necessity of high tech armor. We aren't used to fighting people who suicide bomb sending shrapnel through lightly armored vehicles. To my knowledge the issue was being dealt with as fast as possible.

The reason the army is inadequate (if you want to take that stance) is because they were left with whatever inventory they had from Bill and the democrats. If their own doctrine left the military inaqequate, then you have to use what you got. Don't you? It probably would have been much worse if they (the party that sent them in) had not have waited a year. Perhaps that was a time to "gear up". Yes that is a dark road.

"He shouldn't have sent the troops in without proper equipment." No ****, why didn't they have it? Why the red tape to get it, after the fact? What they really mean is... "He shouldn't invaded another country not matter what, even in the wake of Geneva and the United Nations no country should ever be invaded and if you wear a Uniform you are an evil bastard who can't show any human emotion."

Well, i must say i'm a bit surprised that nobody came foward in er0k's defense. Maybe his wordings weren't the best choice here, but it's certainly a result of frustration towards this war. I don't condem him one bit. There's always two sides of a story and many people think like him. You can all tell me that the men and women of our armed forces are great for doing their job, and I do agree with that for the most part, but let's not forget that there are people out there fvcking up just for the hell of it. Like those soldiers that tortured iraq's prisoners, and sexually molested them, like those soldiers that shot an injured man for no reason, like the soldiers that break into civilians houses and drags the whole family out in the streets, while their babies are crying. There are bad apples in every tree. It's unfair to judge a group by those few, but who knows what else goes on that doesn't get media coverage?

Whoever is there, wether they agree with this war or not, they are supporting its cause. Now if they want to, that's a whole different ball game. Yes, many people who joined the military did so because " they couldn't hold a real job" and not because they woke up one day and said " I wanna defend freedom". Let's get real here. I recently spoke to a kid who told me he was enlisting so that he can leave the ghetto. It is the case of many men and women who enlist. They do it for financial/social reasons as a result of lack of opportunities and the government knows that and uses that as a tool for recruitment.
For the military guy who described his routine in the military as a response to er0k's comment ( real job?), dude, that doesn't sound like a normal job to start off with. How can you use that as an argument?
Now I don't know if er0k got banned as a result of this post, but if so...what kind of freedom fighters are we talking about here/ You express with so much emphasis that you risk your life to defend the freedom of others and yet you ban a member because he used that same freedom to express his opinions? Give me a break! Suck it up, not everybody thinks you are gods and not everyone agrees with your opinions. Learn how to debate with someone who has a different opinion.
As for the pictures, i'm sorry, but it is not heartwarming at all to me either. It's propaganda if you ask me. War is ugly , war is bloody and it's a tragedy that we still have to resolve our issues like barbarians. Humanity should be in a state of mind now where things shouldn't have to end up in killing of others. Yes, Saddam was a Hitler to me, but there were other ways to bust his regime.
To all a good night and god bless.

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Now I don't know if er0k got banned

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er0k LEFT, his account shows /ed guest status ?
He didn't need anyone to defend him, he was well able to do that for himself.

And for the rest of your whinge :

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like those soldiers that shot an injured man for no reason,

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Are these the same ones who had just taken a KNOWN enemy position ?
Hadn't they just been under fire from that position ?
Isn't this the country where suicide is a known attack posture ?
In a situation like that, the only policy that works is 'shoot first, ask questions later'
You are probably glad that he will be court martialled for following orders.

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like the soldiers that break into civilians houses and drags the whole family out in the streets, while their babies are crying.

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Civilian houses ? they are the suspected addresses of those that attack and hide, as for dragging the whole family out, you NEVER leave anyone un-guarded in their own environment, you always put them into a place of YOUR choosing.
Babies cry, it's a fact of life.

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For the military guy who described his routine in the military as a response to er0k's comment ( real job?), dude, that doesn't sound like a normal job to start off with

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It's the military, it IS a normal job, it just isn't 9 to 5.

your profile shows dick.
here for over a year, 2 posts.
we have nothing to base our ideas of you on, but as a W.A.G. [wild assed guess] I'd say you were just another snotty kid, no idea on what to do with your life, no intention of joining, but not capable of entering the military anyway, you just want to take cheap shots [no pun] at them.

grow and learn.

You NEED them, they DON'T need you ...........

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Are these the same ones who had just taken a KNOWN enemy position ?Hadn't they just been under fire from that position ?
Isn't this the country where suicide is a known attack posture ?

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Ok, so according to you, it's ok to shoot an unarmed injured enemy, nevermind searching him. But i guess in your mentality, the army was wrong to condem him as well.

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Civilian houses ? they are the suspected addresses of those that attack and hide, as for dragging the whole family out, you NEVER leave anyone un-guarded in their own environment, you always put them into a place of YOUR choosing.

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Get your facts straight! They don't go into particular suspicious house. They go into a neighborhood and strip every freaking place! Pretty much how the nazis did with the jews.

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Babies cry, it's a fact of life.

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Sure , you sound very motherly. Children also don't forget, we are planting the seeds here. How would you feel if you were eating dinner with your parents, a bunch of soldiers broke into your house, dragged your parents out on the streets and kicked your dad on the stomach?

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It's the military, it IS a normal job, it just isn't 9 to 5.

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BS! it is not your normal job. if so, why are we praising them for? Who cares if they leave their family for over a year behind, right? Who cares that they have to wear a bullet proof vest and walk around with guns to shoot ppl who wanna kill them? That's normal!

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your profile shows dick. here for over a year, 2 posts.
we have nothing to base our ideas of you on, but as a W.A.G. [wild assed guess] I'd say you were just another snotty kid, no idea on what to do with your life, no intention of joining, but not capable of entering the military anyway, you just want to take cheap shots [no pun] at them.

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First of all, I wasn't aware that I needed an X amount of posts to express my ideas in this forum. I thought that's what AO addicts was for. Secondly, you don't have to get personal, I'm probably older then you , have a sh!tload of responsibilities in my life right now and my Job is pretty close to a military one.