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I'm not Jewish, nor do I know their rules; it was merely an example. Don't take it to personally ... especially if you know you've stole something.Quote:
Cutting off a hand for that? Sounds like Islam's law, I don't know that Judaism had that tenet, did it? Far too extreme for me. Make the punishment fit the crime.
I'm not Jewish, nor do I know their rules; it was merely an example. Don't take it to personally ... especially if you know you've stole something.Quote:
Cutting off a hand for that? Sounds like Islam's law, I don't know that Judaism had that tenet, did it? Far too extreme for me. Make the punishment fit the crime.
I would like to point out the fact that evil is all perceptive. It is defined by society, or in many cases, religion. Take the WTC bombing for example. We consider this to be an act of pure evil and hatred. Members of the Al Qaeda (and contrary to popular belief, many of the Afghan people) believe that this was payback, and even necessary. You must remember that we have done things to them in the past that they consider evil and we don't. Back when Russia was at war with Afghanistan, we gave aid to the groups that were fighting back. After the Russians retreated, those groups split into two major groups; the Al Qaeda (Taliban), and the Northern Alliance. These groups took over government of the country, with the Taliban controlling about 90% of the country. They blame this fighting on the fact that we did not help them rebuild after they were done doing the dirty work for us. Let us also not forget the times that we have desecrated their holy lands. They consider all that to be evil, while we don't. The only things you perceive as evil are those that you are told so to do, whether by society, family, or religion. Christianity has defined most of those things you consider to be evil. So for just a second, let's assume that Christianity is wrong. All those definitions of good and evil are pretty worthless, then, aren't they? Just for a second, assume there is no god. At this point, nothing really matters in the big picture. It doesn't matter whether or not you kill or rape or torture, because in the BIG picture, none of it makes any difference. We have no grasp on events. We're helpless, and our very existence is pointless.Quote:
Originally posted by preacherman481
Knowledge is fine. That's one reason I come to this site-- to gain more knowledge about computers. But knowledge can only take us so far. Science has multiplied our knowledge in manifold ways, but it hasn't made us any better morally. It hasn't taken the evil out of human hearts. It's only given us bigger and better machines to kill each other with.
I hope I'm making sense to everybody. :dunce:
I assume that must of the laws and morals we have come from God. God has built into us the capacity for conscience, and as our conscience is educated by the standards of God's word, we have the capacity to act morally. Yes, apart from God's revealed standards, right and wrong basically is one person's opinion against another's. Right is whoever wins the war and writes the history books says it is. But, as you already know, I believe there is a God. And whatever God says is right is right, and what God says is wrong-- is wrong. My own opinion matters very little. What matters is God's perception. If there is no God, maybe our existence is pointless. But if there is a God, and I believe there is, our existence has purpose. We were made to glorify him. That is the real purpose of our existence.
Yes, that's true, but if we knew for sure that Christianity was right, there would be no point in debating this. It would all be laid out for us neat and pretty like. Although I have serious doubts about Christianity, I try to follow the majority of its values on conduct. I feel that the majority of these are very good ideals to follow, as long as you don't get obsessed with them. I try to follow these ideals, but I don't let them interfere with my life too much. However, other people perceive laws of morlaity differently, and conduct themselves accordingly. That is the point I was trying to make.
*sigh*
School's getting crazy. Life's getting crazy. And I've decided to spend less time on this thread than I have been. If you are genuinely interested in Christianity, please send me a message or email and I'll be happy to answer any questions you have. Otherwise, this is it for me on this thread. It's been great. It's just that I find it to be a complete waste of time to argue something that everyone has a predisposition against. Since everyone (or most everyone) already "knows" Christianity to be a lie, they can't truthfully examine it and give it another chance.
I'm out.
God bless,
--PhirePhreak
That's exactly what this thread is about mate... to truthfully examine and give it another chance if we choose to do so. This thread wasn't to make converts, or to screw over religion in any way - and besides, this is the Cosmos Forum... :)Quote:
Since everyone (or most everyone) already "knows" Christianity to be a lie, they can't truthfully examine it and give it another chance.
Peace
-[WebCarnage]
Sad to see you go, PhirePhreak...
A few last considerations... (speaking just for myself here, not for anyone else):
* I don't have predispositions against christianity. The values christianity stands for, are common sense (and I ain't talking about a Greater Common Sense here).
The question is not whether christianity is a lie or not, the question is what God has to do with it... It's a good thing that you don't need 'proof' for that aspect of your belief, but some of us do...
* I find argueing about something that everyone has a predisposition against a learning experience...
The kinds of discussions we're having here, are not about winning or loosing, they are about questioning your own views, testing them against other people's views, making your OWN MIND up about what you want to believe and what you don't want to believe. It's not about trying to change other people's points of views.
If you consider your point of view to be beyond questioning, or if you don't want to discuss your points of view, you'll never find your own truth...
Just thought I would add my 2ยข to this discussion, which I must say has gone remarkable well! Congrats to all!
My Thoughts -
I am a Unitarian Universalist (www.uua.org), and I believe that communal spirtuality has a value to the individual.
However I am not a Christian (or a member of the other "Revealed Word" religions [Islam/Jewdism] is that I cannot believe in a God who would create Evil, and then punish those who choose other than he/she/it wishes. If God needs my worship, why does he allow doubt? I also can't believe in a god who allows so much evil, for it seems to me that such a god would be evil him/her self.
I also don't believe in the bible, as it was created by human hands. Writen by "Moses" and the the "Matthew", "Mark", "Luke", and "John" and then ratified in its current form by the council of Nicea in 379. The Bible is to far from the word of god to base a life on.
Anywho, just my humnble opinion.
After reading jcmcb's post, I was reminded of a thought that I once had that I tried to explain to a devout Christian.
God is good, correct? Lucifer(the Fallen Angel, Morning Star, Satan, whichever) is bad, correct?
Here's my thoughts...I am inclined to believe in a duality in all existence. Hence, I believe that 'good' and 'evil' resides in all things. In the beginning...God was all that there was, then he created Earth and the Angels...Lucifer rebelled, and was cast down. With me so far? Where did the 'evil' that was born into Lucifer come from? Must have been God, since he created all things, right? God had 'evil' in him at one point, which was borne by Lucifer, who was cast down. BUT, from my understanding, the Angels were not given free will. How is this possible? Was Lucifer created specifically in order to bear 'evil'?
Sorry if I am delving too deeply into the story, but nobody else that I know has thus far has had the capacity to answer that question honestly(partly because they don't know what I'm talking about...Christians, indeed;)), and I hope I can tap a mind or two here to shed some light and voice a few thoughts...:) The whole of the Christian culture holds many interesting paradoxes and truths that many ignore(or just haven't realized), and I, for one, enjoy pondering them instead of outright dismissing them.
Ouroboros
Eek. First post I've really disagreed with. The worship of God is based on faith, and faith alone. It's the concept of free choice. If there were no alternatives to God we would have no choice but to worship him. And that is not faith, or free choice. That's slavery.Quote:
However I am not a Christian (or a member of the other "Revealed Word" religions [Islam/Jewdism] is that I cannot believe in a God who would create Evil, and then punish those who choose other than he/she/it wishes. If God needs my worship, why does he allow doubt? I also can't believe in a god who allows so much evil, for it seems to me that such a god would be evil him/her self.
God does not punish those who follow Evil. God will forgive anybody, no matter how many people you kill. All you have to do is ask for forgiveness, and mean it.
Thank you for delving. I've actually done some thinking about this. I believe the Angels were created with free will and I also believe there's a random track in life. Something that isn't planned but just happens. Like freak accidents. I think Lucifer might have randomly had a bit more doubt, or evil, and used his free will to step away from God. Or, like you said, he might have been created just to bear evil. Maybe God asked someone to volunteer for the job, who knows.Quote:
After reading jcmcb's post, I was reminded of a thought that I once had that I tried to explain to a devout Christian.
God is good, correct? Lucifer(the Fallen Angel, Morning Star, Satan, whichever) is bad, correct?
Here's my thoughts...I am inclined to believe in a duality in all existence. Hence, I believe that 'good' and 'evil' resides in all things. In the beginning...God was all that there was, then he created Earth and the Angels...Lucifer rebelled, and was cast down. With me so far? Where did the 'evil' that was born into Lucifer come from? Must have been God, since he created all things, right? God had 'evil' in him at one point, which was borne by Lucifer, who was cast down. BUT, from my understanding, the Angels were not given free will. How is this possible? Was Lucifer created specifically in order to bear 'evil'?
Sorry if I am delving too deeply into the story, but nobody else that I know has thus far has had the capacity to answer that question honestly(partly because they don't know what I'm talking about...Christians, indeed), and I hope I can tap a mind or two here to shed some light and voice a few thoughts... The whole of the Christian culture holds many interesting paradoxes and truths that many ignore(or just haven't realized), and I, for one, enjoy pondering them instead of outright dismissing them.
Greetz all.
Well, after posting my previous post less than 12 hours ago, I've had numerous individuals contact me telling me that I really need to be here. So, I've decided to continue posting here, tho not as often (most likely) and I'm not going to fool with finishing my little research paper project. If you would like to read it, please email me at [email protected] or PM me and I'll be more than happy to email you a copy.
God bless all, and thanks for the encouragement.
--PhirePhreak
Hey all,
First of all, I want to ask a clarification question.
Ouroboros-- What do you mean when you say "God had 'evil' in him at one point"? Does that mean God is still partially evil?
Second (open for anyone), What is everyone's conception of evil? Just wondering. Some people seem to be saying that evil is just a matter of perception. We think things are evil based on our own unique viewpoint, i.e., one person's good is another person's evil. Is evil a reality? Or is it just a concept in our brains? I know what I think. What do you think? Please explain your answer.
Third, given your own understanding of evil, how do you interpret the events of 9/11? Were the attacks on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center an act of evil? Please explain what you mean.
Fourth, do you believe in a person devil? Do you believe Satan is a living being?
Fifth, how do you explain the presence of evil in the world?
Whew! That's a lot of questions! First of all let me say that I am a Christian. I am a United Methodist, and I was born and raised believing. I am also a human being, and occasionally (no more than 20-25 times a day!) I slip up and do something I'm pretty sure God's not too pleased with. However I do have the faith to know that if I ask His forgiveness, it is mine, right here, right now, no more questions asked.
Now, on to the question of evil, and choice. We do not all live a preordained life. We are free to make decisions, and follow our decisions. That is how God created us. He did not create us to be mindless followers. He gave us brains, and hearts, and souls. What we choose to do with the gifts He has given us is up to us. He has also created enough beauty and unexplainable mysteries to point us in the general direction of knowing that something Greater than us must exist. And He sent His son to show the depth of His love for us, that we no longer have to follow the rules laid out by man, who can be hypocritical and selfish. All we have to do, after the sacrifice of Jesus, is to follow ten fairly simple rules, and accept Christ as our Saviour.
Yes, in my mind the acts of 9/11 were evil. Not because they were comitted by people who believe something different than I do, because almost all religions follow the same basic guidelines as Christianity. There are differences, but they all come down to the belief in a loving, forgiving God. I believe the acts were evil because as I said earlier, God did not make us to be mindless followers....of ANYONE. The men who committed these acts were brainwashed by a criminal. And to the Christians who condemn all Muslims....may I remind you "Let he without sin cast the first stone." ;)
Faith is the ability to believe in YOURSELF and through yourself activate your role in creation.
From this springs the attributes we admire (or scorn) of honesty, honor, integrity, etc...
Logic will ALWAYS lead you in circles unless like the mentats in Dune novels your questions allow you to balance on uneven or unconnected surfaces (battlegrounds).
Evil is anything that rebels against the will of god.
So, how about if you don't believe in god?
OK, then evil is what violates the will of "the majority"?
What if the majority is "wrong"(in your opinion)?
Then evil is whatever disagrees with you.
What if I disagree with you?
Then I'll have to kill you.
:cool:
Alactraz -
I am confused. I have free will not to believe/worship in god, but if I don't then I go to hell? How is that any different from slavery? A gilded cage is still a cage.
evil is inherent in everything, it is that which is the oppisite to something... dont think of it as "bad" jsut think of it as the oppisite of what we prefer... some of us anyway, lol
Speaking for myself personally, I believe no being can be good/evil, only their actions can be good/evil. Thus any god can be viewed as good and evil at the same time. Personally, with my understanding and feelings about god, I feel that my understanding of god is that god is a neutral being, neither good nor bad. God simply does what he/she/it must to ensure that the fragile balance of the universe is not disturbed too greatly.Quote:
Originally posted here by preacherman481
Ouroboros-- What do you mean when you say "God had 'evil' in him at one point"? Does that mean God is still partially evil?
Evil is a philosophical thing, as is Good. Evil and Good, much like Beauty and Ugliness, are in the eyes of the beholder.Quote:
Second (open for anyone), What is everyone's conception of evil? Just wondering. Some people seem to be saying that evil is just a matter of perception. We think things are evil based on our own unique viewpoint, i.e., one person's good is another person's evil. Is evil a reality? Or is it just a concept in our brains? I know what I think. What do you think? Please explain your answer.
Personally, I believe it was an act of evil. I believe that killing innocents at all is evil, which is why I argued heavily against bombing Afghanistan.Quote:
Third, given your own understanding of evil, how do you interpret the events of 9/11? Were the attacks on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center an act of evil? Please explain what you mean.
Satan is a purely Christian construct. There is no basis for an anti-god (antichrist) in any other religions. Hinus recognize that life is a cycle of birth, life, and death, and that all things eventually succumb to these things. This is why they believe in three gods (or perhaps, three aspects of one god -- I'm not a hindu): Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver, and Shiva the Destroyer. All three combined create the cycle of life, and all three are equally necessary for the cycle to be preserved.Quote:
Fourth, do you believe in a person devil? Do you believe Satan is a living being?
Evil is a construct created by man to define things he/she disagrees with --or even hates-- on a fundamental level. Like rape, murder, torture, etc.. These are all things that many people feel are evil because they fundamentally cannot tolerate such things.Quote:
Fifth, how do you explain the presence of evil in the world?
I have often argued this point, and most Christians I've encountered reply with a rather stupid "it's a test" style of answer. This point is one of the biggest flaws I see with Christianity. Almost all other religions allow for people to have different beliefs (the Jews even wrote guidelines for others to follow which were rather simple) and still be 'saved' or rather, not punished.Quote:
Originally posted here by jcmcb
Alactraz -
I am confused. I have free will not to believe/worship in god, but if I don't then I go to hell? How is that any different from slavery? A gilded cage is still a cage.
i went to catholic school... they dont ahve a clue what "evil" is. they jsut go by what the people above them say, who, in turn, blindly follow the person above them..... it just keeps going like that...
If you don't worship God, you probably don't believe in the somewhat-screwed-up Christian afterlife. So then you wouldn't believe in hell, and if I were you, I wouldn't worry about it. Cause really, why believe in hell but not in God?Quote:
I am confused. I have free will not to believe/worship in god, but if I don't then I go to hell? How is that any different from slavery? A gilded cage is still a cage.
I don't know if I'll contradict anything I've said before, but that's okay, my views are changing as I've followed this thread. I think you can worship whatever you want and still get to Heaven. Doing good deeds go to God, even if they're in somebody else's name. Likewise, doing something evil in God's name goes to Satan.
The Christians who made up the rules about having no choice but to believe in God were selfish, greedy, and interested only in personal power.
So far, people have just pointed out flaws in Christianity, most of which I agree with. Nobody has really argued against God himself, or the principles religion. I wonder why that is? (Not a rhetorical question, I really am curious.)
Hmm, this one is a tough answer really. I guess for myself the answer would really be I believe because I believe. Now, I'm guessing that isn't going to be a really good answer for you, so I will try to stumble through an answer.Quote:
Originally posted here by jcmcb
I am confused. I have free will not to believe/worship in god, but if I don't then I go to hell? How is that any different from slavery? A gilded cage is still a cage. [/B]
Please understand this is what I believe, and not a personal criticism of any one else, or their beliefs!
You don't have to believe, or accept Jesus. That is your choice. But free will and choice lead you down particular paths in life. And the path for not accepting Jesus is going to hell. It's not slavery though the way I see it. Slavery would be something negative, something that required you to do something bad, or against your will. The Christian life is a life of freedom. Most of the posts I have read here are by people claiming to live by morals and standards anyway. All Christianity is is a way to have leadership and guidance in your spiritual life, to have someone to call on in times of trouble, and someone to thank in times of abundance and happiness.
I get the feeling here that a lot of you have had very bad experiences with organized religion, and I can respect that. But as my Grandma used to say, you don't throw the baby out with the bath water. The thing you have to remember is that preachers, rabbis, priests, or any other type of spiritual leaders ARE PEOPLE TOO. They struggle with the same problems you do, and some of them are jerks....just like the guy you work with, or go to school with, or live down the hall from. But God is not. God is perfect love and he loves you with a perfect love. The only person you have to answer to in this life is ultimately God. And the nice thing about that is that he knows you better than your mom does, and he loves you anyway. Enough to send his son to die for you, so that you may have eternal life. I as a mom think that sacrificing my child for you would be enough to make me feel like you owed me a little loyalty. And that the choice is still yours, but maybe there would be a negative consequence for that choice.
Whew...this is tough.
Please let me know if I've come anywhere close to answering your question. It's a tough one to answer, because I am not all that scientific, and like I said, I believe because I believe, and that's where it gets tough for you analytical guys. I have my bible, and my faith. That's all I need to get me through.
Deb :)
Alcatraz/Deb -
Thanks for trying to answer my question. I am glad you realize that I am not trying to in any way "dis" your religion or your beliefs...
Al - I believe in a god, but not in a heaven. If any good deeds get you into heaven (lets say it does exist), whose judges the good deeds? We all have different definitions of good after all...
Deb - I think you missed my point. My question is thus: If I have to believe in Jesus to be saved (ie not suffer eternal torment), how do I have a choice? The idea of freedom, at least to me, seems pointless if there are no alternatives. This is not about (at least to me) the various rules that others say "god" needs, but the idea that you have to worship this all powerful being. If he is are creator, and loves us, then it shouldn't matter if we acknowledge him or not. There should be no test for admittance. A parent loves a child unconditionally. Period.
Just my thoughts...
Makes perfect sense, Debwalin...
'I believe because I believe'... guess that says it all...
I live by my own morals and standards, and the only person I'll ever answer to is myself. And yes, my morals and standards probably are pretty the much the same as yours, but I prefer living by those standards because I myself believe in them, not because I know I'll go to hell if I don't live by them...
And I don't believe you'll go to hell if you don't believe the same things I do... That's the difference ;)
And yes, I'd owe you a little loyalty if you'd sacrifice your child for me... I'd probably have a minor conscience problem if I didn't... I'd have to live with myself for the rest of my life... That's worse than having to face God....
I have my own faith... That's all I need to get me through...
Take care...
Neg.
Jcmcb....whew, thank YOU for not thinking I was being too whatever....it's very hard to try to explain something you believe to someone who doesn't believe the same without sounding pushy, self righteous and altogether difficult!
Neg....lol, I'm glad it's enough for you because I'm afraid that I believe because I believe is as good as I get when things get really tough...it's hard to explain something you just have faith in!
Okay, let me see if I can try again. I actually did get your point I think jcmcb, but trying to get from my brain to my fingers occasionally creates a traffic jam, and not everything I mean to say gets through. Let me see...I think that God deserves a little something back, at least acknowledgement, for creating us. I have said that God is perfect love, but it also says in the bible that God is a jealous God. He wants love and respect and acknowledgement. I will admit that I see your point, and I don't have a really good answer right off the top of my head. I don't understand all there is to understand. But it just makes sense to me that if I had created this world, and everything in it I would want some worship for it. BUT I am not God, and me speaking for him is kind of, well, lame!!! And as for the rules made up by men, that is why God sent Jesus to be sacrificed. That way, your good deeds DON'T get you into heaven.
You don't have to do anything at all to get into heaven, except accept Jesus. I think it would have been kind of nerve racking to me to wonder every day if I had been good enough to get into heaven.
I guess you're right to some extent, there really isn't a viable other option. The idea of choice and free will speaks more to why there is evil in the world if God is good! I don't know how to explain something I just believe any better than that. Here's all the proof I have....when things are really bad, and I don't see any way out of it...I pray. And I pray hard. And you know what.....it almost always works out for me. That may not be enough proof for some, but for me, it works. The trick is remembering to say thank you, too.
It does say in the bible that God loves unconditionally, but he can't help you if you don't ask. He can't save you if you don't ask. Have you ever heard the parable of the lost lamb? If you haven't I will tell you, but if you have, I will try to save (a little) space by not explaining it all here. But that is the message God has for us....he will leave the whole flock behind in order to save one, and that there is more rejoicing in heaven for the one who was saved, than for all of those already there. Heaven weeps for every sinner lost.
Ahem, I have taken way more than my fair share here.....so just one more thing....
Neg....the difference between me and God is that he loved the WHOLE WORLD enough to sacrifice his son......I can't think of one person I love that much! (except maybe for my son...and that would be self defeating!lol)
Please don't feel like I am preaching to you, I just want to try to make you understand why I believe.....and also this is really stretching my brain!! I am a regular old person who screws up just as bad as ANYBODY else...trust me. Like I said before, I'm sure God isn't too happy with me a lot of the time, but I can ask for, and receive forgiveness. That's why I keep trying. Because no matter what I do, if I ask for forgiveness I will receive it.....it's a pretty good feeling!
Deb -
I too feel the bottleneck between the old Gray Computer and the New Titanium one...
Two things I still don't understand/agree with...
1) Origninal Sin - I don't believe I am or should be responsible for what my predecssors did... it just doesn't make sense (not that you mentioned it, but I thought I ought to).
2) If good deeds don't get you into heaven, and only belief in Jesus does, then why can I doubt Jesus? It seems to me that its very cruel for god to have a set of rules to follow, and then not tell everyone (God has yet to vist me, at any rate). If God came to me and said "Worship me or got to hell" thats one thing. But at the moment all I have to go on is the word of some others who are attaching there own meanings/ideas to what god may or may not have to say. Since I belive god would care about me following his/her rules, I don't believe that the bible/worship of Jesus is valid, having been handed down only thru the mouth of man.
(brief aside about hell)
I once talked with with a Minister about hell. He told me that he believed in the bible, so he belived in hell, but he also belived in the infinte love of god, so he thought hell was empty. I would agree with the that idea.
I totally agree, and that's one thing that bothers me about Hinduism. Who care what I did in my past life?Quote:
Origninal Sin - I don't believe I am or should be responsible for what my predecssors did... it just doesn't make sense (not that you mentioned it, but I thought I ought to).
Following Jesus gets you in, only if you mean it. Empty prayers don't get you anything. But good deeds do. You can get to heaven without knowing who Jesus is, as long you live a decent life.Quote:
If good deeds don't get you into heaven, and only belief in Jesus does, then why can I doubt Jesus? It seems to me that its very cruel for god to have a set of rules to follow, and then not tell everyone (God has yet to vist me, at any rate). If God came to me and said "Worship me or got to hell" thats one thing. But at the moment all I have to go on is the word of some others who are attaching there own meanings/ideas to what god may or may not have to say. Since I belive god would care about me following his/her rules, I don't believe that the bible/worship of Jesus is valid, having been handed down only thru the mouth of man.
Shh! Don't tell anybody! Hell's the big secret of the world, it's just an empty threat! I have to say that I too agree with the idea that there's noone there.Quote:
I once talked with with a Minister about hell. He told me that he believed in the bible, so he belived in hell, but he also belived in the infinte love of god, so he thought hell was empty. I would agree with the that idea.
I have a different approach ... What if God isn't perfect and only loves who He wants when He wants. Is it that difficult to beleive? I doubt it,...Quote:
Originally posted by Deb
God is perfect love and he loves you with a perfect love
Imagine our purpose on Earth is only to entertain God, what if he never even thought once about a heaven or hell, he doesn't like half the people here so why should any of us live forever, whether it be in pain and suffering or happy and fun. What if he just wanted "something to do" for the rest of eternity, and himself, created good and evil just to make some conflict arouse.
What if God wasn't perfect, made mistakes, got hurt, felt pain...just like everything else. Honestly, God could have just been a clumsy one, and thats why half the things that are, are. What if God didn't have everlasting love for everybody, and had to choose only a few. Or that God did infact have everlasting love,...but choose not to share it.
Things wouldn't be so different if that were the truth mind you...
But if you noticed... my whole post was built on "what if's" and "imagines" ... And might I add that thats what a "good" religion is based upon too. So many "what if there was a higher beings" turned into "what if he really cared for us and made heaven" then finally to "God send me to Heaven when I die". From a total uneducated guess, to the front, life-or-death fact that there is a heaven and people do infact go there...
Ironic.
I am going to make an intelligent well thought out reply to your post WebCarnage and jcmcb....as soon as I get done thinking. You guys are giving my brain cells a serious workout. But I am still thinking, just didn't want you to think I had bailed on you because the questions got tough. ;)
Deb
Okay, here I go again! Lol...I think I will start with original sin...The idea of original sin is not really a Methodist specialty, but I will explain what I think on the subject. I think Adam and Eve really blew it for everyone....but if they hadn't someone else would have. You think your mad....try the pain of childbirth! Lol...but that is one of the punishments that were placed on mankind for eating from the tree of knowledge. And this was discussed at the very beginning of the thread...but Adam DID eat from the fruit also...but only after Eve persuaded him. But that is the reason that we still suffer consequences laid down by God. We did have the original opportunity to live a perfect happy life with no work, supposedly painless childbirth, and eternal life on earth. The point here I guess is, once we had knowledge, (which I believe was the knowledge of evil) there was no way to continue the species without knowledge. How would Adam and Eve been able to teach their children how to live without the knowledge they now had?
There is also another verse in the bible that discusses the sins of the father being visited upon the son, i.e. you are responsible for your fathers actions. However, after the sacrifice of Jesus, that is no longer applicable. You are no longer responsible for anything other than your own salvation.
I am afraid that I am going to have to completely disagree with Alcatraz on this one though...I firmly believe in hell, and that people who die without accepting Christ as their saviour do go there. I do have some questions about that myself though, because it seems such a waste for people who devoutly follow their own religions (i.e. Judaism), that don't believe Christ is the risen Saviour, to not be recieved into heaven. So I can't really answer that one, because I do believe in hell, and I don't believe it's empty, but as to who definitely goes there and who doesn't, I'm not real sure!
WebCarnage, I just can't accept that. I know that's not proof, or even a rational argument. I just can't believe God created us for his own personal entertainment. It is such a central part of my life to believe what I believe that I can't even fathom that. I certainly don't mean this as a put down to you...I just have the faith that God created us to live in his image, to be responsible for spreading the gospel to others, and to worship him, until we join him in heaven. I have really thought about this, and I can't think of a way to argue your point. All I can say is that in the bible, it says God loves me. I have seen what was to me evidence personally that God loves me, through studying and reading the bible, and prayer. I know that isn't a great persuasive big impressive argument, but it's what I have....my faith. Like I said in a previous post, when it really gets tough, sometimes I believe because I believe is as good as I can do.
I hope everyone has a nice weekend, I have a ton of yardwork to do, so I may not get back here til Sunday night or Monday, but (to quote Arnold S.) I'll be back!
Deb :standupha
(sorry, that smilie just tickles me, and if you read my mood....that's what my hair really looks like now....awful woman!)