Printable View
According to this, now the family and the guy are the bad people. He, because he was in the wrong place (what a shame) and his family, because they are demanding justice and compensation. Its really a nice thought :mad:Quote:
...
his family are already licking their lips at the prospect of all that compensation settling in .........
yeah, i understand that this incident is no reason to rewrite the "when to shoot" section of the police manual
but, it was a BIG mistake.
You cant kill an innocent person, say "Oh, I'm sorry I thought you were a bomber" and expect everything to just blow over. The family has a right to expect some form of recompense. No amount of money they could receive would cover over the loss of their son/brother/nephew/grandson, etc.
The wording from their mouthpiece is for MONEY, NOT Justice.Quote:
because they are demanding justice and compensation
In the big picture it is not an important thing to have killed ...........
What IS important, is that the Police have shown they WILL .......
Yes you can ......Quote:
You cant kill an innocent person, say "Oh, I'm sorry I thought you were a bomber" and expect everything to just blow over.
No they don't ....... No one should EXPECT a payoutQuote:
The family has a right to expect some form of recompense.
ESPECIALLY as
If NO amount will help .......Quote:
No amount of money they could receive would cover over the loss of their son/brother/nephew/grandson, etc.
Why ASK.
Agreed Foxy, the unfortunate thing here is a seeming innocent man had the pay the ultimate price for the police to demonstrate their authority and their resolve.Quote:
Originally posted here by foxyloxley
The wording from their mouthpiece is for MONEY, NOT Justice.
In the big picture it is not an important thing to have killed ...........
What IS important, is that the Police have shown they WILL .......
Cheers:
Coooos....no amount of money would take away the grief of the loss...buuuuuuuuuuuut...a certain amount of money would certainly act as a soothing balm...sorry if it sounds blunt,but I've seen the world and its ways,and according to my limited understanding...money does countQuote:
ESPECIALLY as
quote:
No amount of money they could receive would cover over the loss of their son/brother/nephew/grandson, etc.
If NO amount will help .......
Why ASK.
I've travelled AND worked in EVERY continent [bar Aus - sorry Undies :)]Quote:
I've seen the world
and I've seen that people just want the easy way ...................
no matter what price was paid by those less fortunate than themselves ......
recompense could be a simple apology.
however, I am gonna be realistic and agree with you therenegade.
it will never cover over the loss, but hey, if you can pay for the funeral, a life time of Jack Daniels in which to drown my sorrows and an occasional vacation to Aruba, who am I to complain?
I'm being sarcastic! ;)
I still maintain that...regardless of his innocence...under the circumstances the police acted according to the ' belief ' that this man posed a threat to the safety of others...
I realize the story has changed...it is now being reported that he did not jump the banister, that he was not wearing a heavy coat, that he was killed on the train and not on route to the train, etc...
but I seriously doubt that the police took it upon themselves to target someone for the sheer pleasure of killing him in full view of several witnesses...
that just doesn't make sense to me.
Eg ;)
Oh, sorry, i thought you know. They did. UK representative (consul or embassor i cant remember) plus a Police representative went on family' house (here in Brazil) and apologize in person. I think that was a great attitude.Quote:
recompense could be a simple apology.
and about the previous post, what a weird world where an inocent guy was killed and none has the right to claim for justice.
im wondering what is the diference of this and Sadam' police... is there any?
Noone knows how many THEY killed.Quote:
im wondering what is the diference of this and Sadam' police... is there any?
UK Police have an excellent record for NOT shooting too many :p
The first time I'm actually participating in a thread in Cosmos lol,do I need to start a new thread to get y'all to answer this?:
Why talk about things we dont fully understand?(the government and its dealings) and about things we dont have power over?
Hi therenegade,
We talk about things to air our opinions...sometimes to voice our objections...sometimes to offer a different perspective...and sometimes just to rant.
And contrary to the notion we have no control...we have all the control...we just don't use it in a collective way that would create the power you suggest.
Eg ;)
Looking at the bigger picture...would our opinions change anything?and elaborate,if you will....damn vodka...its gone straight to my head lol
Hi therenegade,
People have all the power...we just freely choose to relinquish that power through the elective process and enable the power to our representatives...
however, the collective voice of the people will always have the power to over-rule any decision of those representatives...if they desire to remain in that office, they will, of necessity, bow to the demands of the people.
The elective office is to represent the will of it's constituents...we relinquish our collective voice in favor of having one voice to represent all of us in that district, municipality, county, Country, etc...
at any time we are able to use that collective voice to over-ride any decision by any representative...we just choose not to.
Eg ;)
Eg ;)
Arree youuu seeiinng doubblleee yett??
Thheee oofficiall druunkkk threeaddd iss inn AAdicttsss. :D
Apparently you havent lived in a third world country much:P
lol jk,but what I said was true somewhat...no country is ever completely satisfied by its leaders,its just the majority of the population that thinks they are...or feel that they are.
Btw,thanks for the patience shown Eg.
Hi therenegade,
Actually, it applies even more so in a Third World Country...because you have nothing to lose by rising up against the Dictator or Tyrant, etc...Quote:
third world country much
In my opinion anarchy is preferable over living under the thumb of a some Tyrannical Ruler...I'd be the first person hiding in the shadows plotting his overthrow...when you have nothing...you have nothing to lose.
Eg ;)
I suppose it'd depend on what you call nothing....to a rich man 5 dollars are nothing...to a poor man they are...and you do have something to lose...take the example of the Kurds in Iraq...or whats left of them.
And perhaps you would Eg....but what happens when you see your neighbours taken away in the middle of the night and relatives arrested without reason and unspeakable horrors carried out on them?Again,take Iraq,take Nazi Germany...does the resolve dwindle?
On my way:DQuote:
Arree youuu seeiinng doubblleee yett??
Thheee oofficiall druunkkk threeaddd iss inn AAdicttsss.
Well we talk about sport and the weather, and they are pretty much the same?Quote:
Why talk about things we dont fully understand?(the government and its dealings) and about things we dont have power over?
It will be interesting to see what compensation is paid. We have a "criminal injuries compensation board", but you don't get much from them :(
Also I think a lot depends on whether the person has dependents etc. The last time I recall the police shooting an innocent person, he got £250,000 for the inconvenience, but they didn't manage to kill him.
I am afraid that there does not seem to be much value set on human life these days.
That was a swift message the filth sent nonetheless. Normally we just sodomize a Haitian immigrant with a plunger.
http://www.hotblkjock.com/abner.html
I think <personal opinion> that it has to be remembered that this is a leak. So we have the unauthorised release of a small number of files which contradict the original reports (were those official reports?)
It is possible that these files are the only files which contradict the original line and they have been selectively release to cause public interest to rise (sold a lot of papers I bet). This is not the whole story and may be some distance from the truth.
I do not believe that the police marksmen would shoot a man 7 times in the head without good reason and without warning. According to the leak the dead man was being held down while he was shot. I don't know any of the police involved but I have shared a range with police marksmen and they were very normal and were not gung-ho all guns blazing type of people.
They guy must have done something to arouse suspicion to the point where the police chose to kill him rather than apprehend. I don't know what he was doing but I doubt he was sitting reading the news paper. Anyone tried to get a seat on the London underground?
I feel sorry for the shooter, he (and his family) will get no peace when the press get his name (which they will).
Well that many shots to the head means terminate now. If time is not a concern, just shoot into the chest. Remember two to the chest one to the head.? This leads me to believe they felt he was about to trigger something. Adrenaline pumping.............wow, I'll have to see the facts.
Hi Imitation,
Exactly !It was obvious from the reports that they were trying to take this guy out quickly to prevent any twitching that might cause a trigger.
This was NOT a random act of violence that you might see the LAPD pull off...they saw a threat and they acted accordingly for public safety.
I have always maintained that it would be highly unusual for these officers to take someone out in this fashion, in a train tunnel with witnesses, unless they felt they were acting in the best interests of the public.
They made a mistake...it HAPPENS...think of it in terms of ' friendly fire '...occasionally the wrong guy/s get it...it's called HUMAN ERROR !
The cops should NOT be punished, the family should be compensated ONLY for the expenses they incurr ( this should not be a pay-day ) as a result of the death ( mind you he should get the full funeral treatment with flag draped over coffin and 21 gun salute at state's expense ), a scholarship fund in the guy's name would be a nice gesture by the police dept. for all remaining children, and everybody should remember the old and very true addage...
SH!T HAPPENS !
I'm pretty sure that's what Socrates said to Crito just before he drank the hemlock. :D
Eg ;)
From the beeb
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4161572.stm
Doesn't show a padded jacket.
Hi Aspman,
I mentioned in the post on the last page that the stories have now changed...
doesn't change anything.
The fact's that matter are:
1. police do not generally execute a man in front of witnesses unless they feel there is an urgency for the public safety.
2. police do not execute people by jumping on them unless they are using their OWN BODIES TO SHIELD an explosion...like jumping on a grenade...why not just shoot him in flight if they were not worried about a bomb.
Eg ;)
As long as it doesn't happen to your own kids, right, Eg? :)
Hi Negative,
Well..I would suspect foul play if several officers were to jump on a 6 year old child and put several bullets into her head ;)
But...hypothetically speaking...if it was a son of mine all grown up...I would not have faulted the police...I would have faulted the bombers who are ultimately responsible for the chaos...and death doesn't sing the same tune with me so my feelings on it would likely be very different from the expected.
Fearing death is like fearing aliens...it's an unknown...as an unknown, it's an irrational fear...as Socrates said, you don't know what awaits you after death but people fear it as if it was the worst thing to ever happen...death is a ' natural ' part of existence...
When that shuttle blew up in the sky a few years back and everybody was calling it a tragedy...I didn't see it as a tragedy at all...my first thought upon hearing about it was : They never felt a thing...if you gotta go...that's a good way to do it....I've seen too many people wither away in hospital beds for years...I'd take a bullet any day over having someone have to dress me and change my bedpan.
I can think of alot of things worse than death.
Eg ;)
Hey Eg,
I'm not disagreeing at all.
I said earlier that that the guy must have done something strongly suspicious to provoke the police to shoot. Police shootings here are rare.
At the time I remember a commentator on TV saying that the SAS were working with SO19. If it was an SAS member in front of this chase then he would be more likely to pull the trigger than the police and he'd empty a mag into the guy.
The press (and a lot of the public) are now assuming that the police were at fault. I would hope they would start a public enquiry to clear it up but it'll probably all be done behind closed doors.
Queue a mass of FOI requests which the government will veto causing even more suspicion.
I still sure that he did something to provoke the shooting. Accidentally or otherwise.
I don't blame someone for running from potential muggers.....juices flowing, I don't quite know if I could distinguish undercover cops. I still need the facts.
I thought I heard he was already subdued before they shot. If that is true........... man that's some wild stuff there!
I mean I've heard and seen cops with (HSPS) High-Speed Pursuit Syndrome.Quote:
a feeling of excitement during a high-speed pursuit.
Nothing like seeing an illegal gang-banger in LA roll out "his" car after deadlocking the interstate for a few hours. Then HSPS kicks in and they go at the bangers with nightsticks and mace. .......Turn a blind eye to a little street justice time to time......Well, he did hold up traffic!Quote:
described as a mix between fear, excitement, and adrenaline. This syndrome cause the officer to vent all these emotions on the
suspect at the end of the pursuit.
If a Brit was wrongfully shot in South America, do you think his mum and pop's would get any money from them in the millions? You know the Falkland Islands, I'm sure everyone down there remembers when they brought nukes down there.
http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/st...toryid=3627411Quote:
Closed circuit television footage later captured the electrician entering the station at a normal walking pace, even collecting a free newspaper, and descending to the platform on an escalator.
Contrary to dramatic witness accounts on the day, Mr de Menezes is seen to board the train through the middle doors before pausing, looking left and right, then sitting down in either the second or third seat facing the platform.
Moments later, police burst in and apparently restrained the Brazilian before pumping seven bullets into his head and one into his shoulder. Three more bullets missed him and the casings were left lying on the floor.
It's beginning to look like a fiasco, on top of being a tragedy. I guess
the police were way too excited, and quite confused. Oh, well.
:cool:
i find it hard to believe that not one person on that train said anything after this happened.
people usually cant wait to get their 15 minutes (seconds) of fame.
They were too busy trying to get a good angle for their camera phones.
in the UK, we don't put military into civilian areas, they are explicitly stopped from operating on home soil ......... UNLESS the PrimeMinister of the day so orders it.Quote:
At the time I remember a commentator on TV saying that the SAS were working with SO19.
they merely provided training expertise, and that was in the days of PT17 [SO19 as was]
And as for the dead mans family :
they have just turned down a £500 000 offer from Scotland Yard, saying they were not prepared to be 'gagged' from speaking out ..............
UK police are not allowed to talk about it [sub-judice] but every one else gets a free shot [no pun]
any ideas that the family are in it for the 'honourable' reasons are now gone ...........
500 000 is WAY more than the UK puts on a life.
Just read about the US where a widow has received $140 MILLION for the loss of her husband due to the meds he was on giving him a stroke ..............
jeez, what a world we live in ............
Govt set it up that way (malpractice/wrongful death lawsuits) for us to take advantage of.......
even if it is unethical.
well, if i saw police enter on a train, arrest a guy and shot him several times i wouldnt take eitherQuote:
Originally posted here by Kthln01
i find it hard to believe that not one person on that train said anything after this happened.
people usually cant wait to get their 15 minutes (seconds) of fame.
Sorry for "resurrecting"(bad word) this thread, but it looks like the left are going to get their wish and have this investigated.Inquirey
But I read this article and figured I would see what the members of AO had to say about it, so searched and found this thread, very interesting reading the comments back and forth, and the different perspectives people have.
I would agree with the "Shoot to Kill" orders, too late to go back in time, if they don't and the guy does turn out to be a suicide bomber.(err on the side of caution?)(pretty ruthless,but a lot of people got to go home that day).
Having said that, I feel after following this story since it broke, that it was more or less down to adrenaline, the fact a suspect starts to run for whatever reason starts to get those pursuing, juices going and from what you read (testimonials from cops who have been involved in shootings)(or even high speed chases where there are fatalities) it is a hard thing to control.
Also the fact that it was only days before, that London experienced the other bombings, so everyone is on edge, and I cannot comprehend what it must of felt like for those cops to chase a possible bomb which at any moment could go off, what was going through their minds.( I would hazard a guess and say they were scared sh**tless).
No.......... Police Officer, I would assume takes great pleasure in the taking of a life.
I hope for those involved, that this inquirey does not do the whitewash routine and produce scapegoats (sacrifical lamb).
This all sort of ties in to the debate going on in the UK wether to arm constables or not, I believe they should all be armed, gone are the days of the noble bobby walking a beat and being friends with everyone in the neighbourhood....the criminals are outgunning the cops, the guns are getting into the country.
Kinda 20-20 but maybe if the plainsclothes cops had of had a career at carrying sidearms at all times, maybe the scenario would have been played out differently???
As for the victims family, the pot is going to get bigger.
Just to comment on the comments made by the guy from Brasil, this country is rife with criminals, wether they are wearing a uniform or not, Sh*t I would bet half if not more of the army are on the take, or even the politicians, their view of the sanctity of life is not the same as the western worlds view (US/UK/Canada/some European Countries).
Amnesty InternationalQuote:
Police killings, extrajudicial executions and ‘death squads’
Public and media concern at high levels of urban violence and crime continued to drive underfunded, poorly trained and often corrupt police forces to the further use of repressive methods. Members of the military and civil police were again responsible for thousands of deaths across the country. Many of these killings reportedly took place in situations which indicated excessive use of force or extrajudicial execution. The killings were rarely investigated as they were often registered as “resistance followed by death”, a characterization that frequently sought to blame the victim. According to the São Paulo police Ombudsman’s office, police killings in the state numbered 703 by October, matching the total for the whole of 2001. Of these killings, 652 were registered as “resistance followed by death”, 138 of which were attributed to off-duty police officers. In Rio de Janeiro 656 killings by the police had been registered by September, already outstripping the previous year’s total of 592. “Death squads” reportedly continued to act with impunity in certain states, with the participation or collusion of members of the police.
notice the words "resistance followed by death" I wander if they were shouting Stop Police at the time.
Hi dalek,
Reviving an old thread are we? :p
Like I said...it was reported that the cops ' dived ' on the suspect...like a soldier might dive on a enemy holding a grenade to prevent harm to his buddies...the ulimate act of heroism...to sacrifice yourself for your fellow man.
The mere fact they were wrong does not change that...anymore than if that grenade turned out to be a dud or just a pack of smokes that looked like a grenade.
Absolutely! ;)Quote:
I would agree with the "Shoot to Kill" orders, too late to go back in time, if they don't and the guy does turn out to be a suicide bomber.(err on the side of caution?)(pretty ruthless,but a lot of people got to go home that day).
Eg ;)
Like i said previously, isnt a "mere fact". An innocent was killed.Quote:
...The mere fact they were wrong does not change that...
If your opinion is that a cop can kill someone "by mistake" and say "oopps, sorry! I killed you" without no further consequences, wellcome to Brasil. After 10 years of this new "Policy" implemented at your country, please come back here to share your opinion. Of course if you are still alive :).
I could agree with there was such thing, but it wasnt. No "object", no "act",no "run, no "jump", nothing.Quote:
...anymore than if that grenade turned out to be a dud or just a pack of smokes that looked like a grenade.
Hi cacosapo,
That is as much cultural in Brazil as it is in other nations with similar histories...it would not translate the same way here...as we have a different cultural history...
Senerio...
your kids are on the bus on the way to school...someone reports the new bus driver is the Mad Bomber...police circle the bus and the description matches perfectly, right down to the large brown paper bag he hides the bombs in...he's targeted children before...snipers have a good shot...
do you let them take it?
Maybe it's not the guy...maybe that's just his lunch...maybe he's not responding to police because he's just scared sh!tless...do you take the shot or not?
Eg ;)
I'd take the shot....with the lives of a bus load of kids weighed in the balance...the order would be if you have a clear shot...take it!
Looks like it's spreading : Funny...he doesn't look like a Brazillian :p
on a more serious note. I cannot imagine Britain with a fully armed Police force.....
I DO see the need for more armed response teams, AND the need to let them get on with what they are trained for .................
thing is amigo, you are talking "Past Tense" (could be a lang prob???)http://spanish.about.com/library/beg..._imperfect.htmQuote:
I could agree with there was such thing, but it wasnt. No "object", no "act",no "run, no "jump", nothing
These individuals had to make a split decision at the time (split=nano sec) they don't have the luxury that armchair quarterbacks have, oh poor sod, should have done it this way, or if that had of been me, I would have done this bull.
If the guy had a hard on I might mistake it for a weapon, and depending on his intentions, blow his brains out. :p
Concealed weapons are just that"concealed" hidden from view, can't see it!!! so when the chips are down, and I have to only go on the "assumption" that the perp has a concealed weapon and that lives are at stake, then guess what, he is going down.(I certainly don't like to ass u me anything, if I can aviod it).
My hope is that if the intelligence was of such a mess, then those responsible for the dissemination of said intelligence get the stocks, and not those on the ground.
The buck stops here!!! I would hope that if ministarial approval was obtained for the shoot that day, that the person responsible for those orders, be the ones to carry the blame.
I think the blokes who did the shooting have suffered enough, they also have families, they are probably in the midst of losing a lot more then just sleep at this time, now that their will be public inquirey, their every waking moment will be to watch this scenario play out time and time again. That to me is a living hell.
Oh yeah even 10 yrs or 20yrs from now you would still not be able to compare England (UK) with that of South America, maybe when "Pigs Fly" (Do not mention Pink Floyd).
Foxy
Just saw the pic :p (brutal)